Obito is literally 31-32 years of age now and doing all of this because his friend died when he was 13. Once his friend died instead of taking kakashi with him so he could find out what really happended or why he did it he decided to go back and get brainwashed by a decrepit old guy on his death bed. The brainwashing literrally took like 5 minutes smfh. Kishi should have left obito dead. He was a much better character before he got crushed. Horrible just horrible villain
Originally posted by chasedown
The point is he actually doesnt have a leg to stand on considering alot of characters experienced way more pain than he did. Therefore his reason for doing the things he did in the series is invalid. There are characters in the story that have experienced the same pain if not more than obito did. Sasuke, Gaara, Itachi, Kakashi,Gai, Tsunade, shika ino cho. Hell even neji grew up with alot of pain in his heart. They all lost loved ones and none of them decided mass killings and starting a world war was the answer.
*sigh*
Kishimoto wants you to agree with all of that. He makes it really clear that Obito is obviously wrong. If you come out of this thinking Kishimoto wants you to believe Obito has a point then you're reading it wrong. Never have the good characters entertained the idea that the Moons Eye Plan is the right path. The closest they got was considering it out of fear that beating Obito was impossible and even then none of our actual heroes consider it. Obito is selfish and a coward. He's also insane. He's a despicable specimen and that is how Kishimoto wants him.
Originally posted by chasedown
Obito is literally 31-32 years of age now and doing all of this because his friend died when he was 13. Once his friend died instead of taking kakashi with him so he could find out what really happended or why he did it he decided to go back and get brainwashed by a decrepit old guy on his death bed. The brainwashing literrally took like 5 minutes smfh. Kishi should have left obito dead. He was a much better character before he got crushed. Horrible just horrible villain
I see bad person, not bad villain(their are valid complaints that he is a bad villain but this shouldn't be one of them). The only real complaint worth addressing in this post is that his brainwashing took so little time. But what you're suggesting is stupid. If you think Obito was in a rational state of mind to go and ask Kakashi for details then you're not reading it right. Obito goes through an existential crisis right on the spot. Observe. And him continuing to do bad things after the fact is justified by the established character trait he has of rationalizing his actions.
And keep in mind that Obito is not the only hero to flat out give up in the face of despair. Watch Naruto give up.
Bottom line is your argument hinges on the idea that Kishimoto is completely unaware of how his audience will react to a character. If Kishimoto wants you to genuinely dislike Obito for being a selfish person then doesn't your argument fall apart? After all the reasons you've listed for him being a terrible villain are all qualities meant to make you not like him. And, generally speaking, you shouldn't like your villains.
I can see what he's saying Aura. The fact that Obito's reason is so inadequate on purpose doesn't invalidate the criticism that it makes it hard to take him seriously as a villain. It isn't good when I'm rolling my eyes whenever Obito whines about Rin being dead. Whether Kishi wanted Obito to look pathetic isn't the issue, its that by doing so he lost his credibility as a threat. Tobi was a ****ing badass who trolled the heroes and was a great villain. Obito is a whiney little ***** who was manipulated the whole time and gives repetitive speeches about how totally right he is when he's so obviously not.
Its like how Pain was the best villain in the series until his backstory was revealed and he got beaten by a book. That killed every ounce of credibility he had. Gaara's backstory was great because it was totally understandable that he'd turn out like he did and it didn't lessen how ****ing insane he was in spite of that. Obito and Nagato look like complete pussies by comparison, wanting to blow up the world for really stupid reasons. Except Nagato's backstory is actually better than Obito's because he got shat on like 3 times in a row with his parents, his dog and whatshisface dying in rapid succession. Obito's backstory is utterly lackluster compared to that.
I thought Pain's turn-around wasn't stupid or abrupt. I thought it was nearly perfect and written well. It wasn't a book that changed his mind: it was Naruto and Jiraiya that changed Nagato's mind. Nagato had a warped and twisted interpretation of Jiraiya's teachings. And it wasn't just a couple of sentences: it was the entire fight with Naruto that changed Nagato's mind. Naruto just didn't quit even in the face of extreme tragedy and his own death. That got Nagato's attention. The rest, we know the story.
The whole point that Kishimoto has driven into his readers, over and over again, is that a ninja can know the heart of another ninja during a mortal fight. Only then can meaningful understanding between the two be had.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
*sigh*Kishimoto wants you to agree with all of that. He makes it really clear that Obito is obviously wrong. If you come out of this thinking Kishimoto wants you to believe Obito has a point then you're reading it wrong. Never have the good characters entertained the idea that the Moons Eye Plan is the right path. The closest they got was considering it out of fear that beating Obito was impossible and even then none of our actual heroes consider it. Obito is selfish and a coward. He's also insane. He's a despicable specimen and that is how Kishimoto wants him.
I see bad person, not bad villain(their are valid complaints that he is a bad villain but this shouldn't be one of them). The only real complaint worth addressing in this post is that his brainwashing took so little time. But what you're suggesting is stupid. If you think Obito was in a rational state of mind to go and ask Kakashi for details then you're not reading it right. Obito goes through an existential crisis right on the spot. Observe. And him continuing to do bad things after the fact is justified by the established character trait he has of rationalizing his actions.
And keep in mind that Obito is not the only hero to flat out give up in the face of despair. Watch Naruto give up.
Bottom line is your argument hinges on the idea that Kishimoto is completely unaware of how his audience will react to a character. If Kishimoto wants you to genuinely dislike Obito for being a selfish person then doesn't your argument fall apart? After all the reasons you've listed for him being a terrible villain are all qualities meant to make you not like him. And, generally speaking, you shouldn't like your villains.
Good villians can make an anime great.
Actually as a whole the audience should like villians as sometime villians are the ones that make the show. There are plenty of villians throughout the animeverse that people like sephiroth, sensui, toguro, kid buu, frieza, aizen, shishio makoto just to name a few. Kishimoto failed with tobi because he built up so much suspense for the identity of the character and let us all down with obito and his rather anticlimactic reason for doing what hes done. He Doesnt even want to be the caster of infinite tsukuyom for total control like madara. He just wants to be in a dream world where he can be with a 12 year old girl. If one of your main villians in a series it bring down the series as a whole.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought Pain's turn-around wasn't stupid or abrupt. I thought it was nearly perfect and written well. It wasn't a book that changed his mind: it was Naruto and Jiraiya that changed Nagato's mind. Nagato had a warped and twisted interpretation of Jiraiya's teachings. And it wasn't just a couple of sentences: it was the entire fight with Naruto that changed Nagato's mind. Naruto just didn't quit even in the face of extreme tragedy and his own death. That got Nagato's attention. The rest, we know the story.The whole point that Kishimoto has driven into his readers, over and over again, is that a ninja can know the heart of another ninja during a mortal fight. Only then can meaningful understanding between the two be had.
The second argument is really more of a questionable manga convention than Kishi's invention, but to be fair it's better than the kind of stuff that happens in sports manga ermm
The first point I agree, Pein actually falling to the power of talk-no-jutsu is the best talk-no-jutsu defeat in the series. Pein was a complex character, we just didn't have enough moments to explore it and fulfill that potential.
We should rank the antagonists in the series from a character perspective, I do think many of them were just stupid with lacking motivations, but some have nice backstories.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Get a room you two
Originally posted by chasedown
yea but anyways this series is written so bad the if The story of Naruto was a city you wouldnt be able to drive thru it since theres so many plotholes.
I find the plotholes are very overrated. Normally most 'unexplained' stuff is either stuff covered awhile ago that the complainer forgot about, stuff that isn't really a plot hole because it's based on an assumption of the person that really isn't in the series, or, finally, stuff that isn't yet explained but will be (and you can tell it will be because similar stuff prior in the series always gets explained).
Plotwise, it is surprisingly very well kept together and actual plotholes are few and far between. Complaining about the plot is far more common than actual plot problems.
Complaints about the unending series of battles, or not seeing minor characters in a long time, those're more legit, but the plot, for all it's complexity, has a minimum of holes.
Obito was a very nice kid, though, like exceptionally compassionate, even towards old ladies. what happened to him was PTSD type stuff after seeing his main get turned into a doughnut by "the other man" and friend; betrayal and the loss of a woman at once pushed him over the edge in a no-turning-back direction of madness.
He's not very different from Nagato in a lot of ways to be honest
Originally posted by psycho gundam
Obito was a very nice kid, though, like exceptionally compassionate, even towards old ladies. what happened to him was PTSD type stuff after seeing his main get turned into a doughnut by "the other man" and friend; betrayal and the loss of a woman at once pushed him over the edge in a no-turning-back direction of madness.He's not very different from Nagato in a lot of ways to be honest
Kakashi actually killed one of his best friends and watched the other get crushed by a boulder if thats not a PTSD moment idk what is
I can see some of Obitos issues. He thought he was dead, only to wake up crippled missing essentially half his body, for months ( I assume?) He's with Madara trying to get better, the memory of his friends, mostly Rin, likely being his driving force. Then the first thing he gets to see when he breaks out is his best friend fist deep in his love.
Still not enough imo, but it's pretty bad.
Yeah that's horrible for fans and people who aren't ninjas. But for people in the Naruto world that's a weak stomach.
It's one thing to be a Garra who was emo and wanted to just kill anyone in sight which was acceptable. It's another to come up with insane plans to put everyone in an infinite genjutsu.
And if his resolve is justifiable and he's a well written villain then he wouldn't cry and be good again after one talk no jutsu.
Originally posted by Damborgson
I can see some of Obitos issues. He thought he was dead, only to wake up crippled missing essentially half his body, for months ( I assume?) He's with Madara trying to get better, the memory of his friends, mostly Rin, likely being his driving force. Then the first thing he gets to see when he breaks out is his best friend fist deep in his love.Still not enough imo, but it's pretty bad.
Is it as bad as watching your sensei get impaled and you parent get blown to pieces, living your whole life thinking your dead mother hated you and your father wants you dead so he constantly trys to kill you,watching your whole family get killed by your brother including your parents, or living with the fact that your life was worthless and your father died because of the cowardice of your uncle.