The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Damborgson
I don't understand.

When did it become not okay for a child to want to spend more time with his father, just because other people have it worse?

He might be spoiled, but it's all he knows. His problems, relative to him, are big. It'll grow out of him.

It's relative to the series. Boruto has it much better than a loooooot of characters, so the fact that he whines about his relatively great situation (more than anyone else in the series tbh) is more egregious than it would be without that as context.

No one is saying it's unbelievable or makes him a terrible person. It does make him unlikeable though, especially when directly compared with Sarada whose family situation is a hundred times worse than his. It's just not a compelling character motivation and makes him look petty and a brat.

After everything I've done for you Neph. The lives I've taken, the sins I've stained my hands with...you go and bury me? Why? WHY!?

Because you let Rin die.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's relative to the series. Boruto has it much better than a loooooot of characters, so the fact that he whines about his relatively great situation (more than anyone else in the series tbh) is more egregious than it would be without that as context.

No one is saying it's unbelievable or makes him a terrible person. It does make him unlikeable though, especially when directly compared with Sarada whose family situation is a hundred times worse than his. It's just not a compelling character motivation and makes him look petty and a brat.

I guess I don't see the basis for a dislike. Why? He isn't aware of others and how worse they have it, so he sees his problems as being big for his situation. /shrug it affects almost every single person with any type of problem.

But, to each his own. Since your reason for disliking him is probably stronger than mine. (I hate him because he looks like Naruto lol)

Eh, he's a kid. Having a workaholic dad who sends *copies* to look after you kinda sucks.

I don't find that unlikable, I find that entirely normal.

Comparative perspective is something that adults have- and besides, it's not like he's saying he's got it worse. I bet if you asked him, he'd acknowledge it. But other people having it worse doesn't make him happy, because happiness doesn't work that way, and he's 12.

Originally posted by Damborgson
So I can go on a mass murder spree as long as I donate the money I get from selling their organs to charity and it'll be okay? 😬 There's no way to justify him being alive.

You can get away with your mass murder spree as long as you play a major role in the survival of far more (and even then, that's with a constant Jonin watch).

I mean, for a fair while of the fight, Hashirama- who he brought- was the only thing keeping Madara at bay and stopping him from ripping into the army or joining in against Naruto. And the EdoHokage also used a shield to contain the Juubi.

Every thing the Edo Hokage did can be accredited to him bringing them there.

Unlike Sasuke- who both did less bad and more good- he's still watched like a criminal, but bringing some of the greatest heroes ever around to help save the world.... I can understand why he's around. Especially in a cutthroat, realpolitik world like Naruto.

Originally posted by Q99
Eh, he's a kid. Having a workaholic dad who sends *copies* to look after you kinda sucks.

I don't find that unlikable, I find that entirely normal.

Comparative perspective is something that adults have- and besides, it's not like he's saying he's got it worse. I bet if you asked him, he'd acknowledge it. But other people having it worse doesn't make him happy, because happiness doesn't work that way, and he's 12.

Which would be a sympathetic motivation in a day time movie maybe, but this is a shounen manga set in a violent world of ninja's. "Daddy doesn't love me!" isn't something that's particularly compelling.

It's made worse by the fact that we as an audience are firmly on Naruto's side from the previous series and by the fact that the reason Boruto even has the luxury to be bothered by such petty concerns as opposed to getting ****ing gutted by a rival clan in his sleep or having an existential crisis at age 12 is Naruto himself, the guy he "completely rejects".

The problem with Boruto is further exaggerated by the fact we know he's getting a movie. His problems are irritating and childish. We haven't been shown anything to indicate that he's going to be a likeable protagonist or that he deserves his own movie. Yes he is a child and children is irritating, neither of which are things that make him likeable or credible. Made even worserer by Sarada being better than him in every way, being both mature and sympathetic.

Originally posted by Q99
Eh, he's a kid. Having a workaholic dad who sends *copies* to look after you kinda sucks.

I don't find that unlikable, I find that entirely normal.

It's not normal in how he's acted. His tears are in the form of graffiti. For Naruto, it was sympathetic. Kishi is trying to pull the same origin story with Boruto but with lamer motivations.

Maybe if he was more unique he would be less hated but still annoying nonetheless.

Originally posted by Q99
You can get away with your mass murder spree as long as you play a major role in the survival of far more (and even then, that's with a constant Jonin watch).

I mean, for a fair while of the fight, Hashirama- who he brought- was the only thing keeping Madara at bay and stopping him from ripping into the army or joining in against Naruto. And the EdoHokage also used a shield to contain the Juubi.

Every thing the Edo Hokage did can be accredited to him bringing them there.

Unlike Sasuke- who both did less bad and more good- he's still watched like a criminal, but bringing some of the greatest heroes ever around to help save the world.... I can understand why he's around. Especially in a cutthroat, realpolitik world like Naruto.

That doesn't erase crimes. I don't question Sasuke's survival, because he's a protagonist and will always be given a get out of jail card. It's just how it is.

But Orochimaru, despite the good he did after, doesn't get excused under any rational argument. It'd be like the BTK killer stopping a bomb from going off in a shopping mall. "Wow Mr. BTK, you sure helped us today. We're gonna keep you under house arrest, but rest assured, we're very grateful. Just don't be beating, torturing and killing anyone again you sillly goose."

You see the disconnect I assume?

Originally posted by Damborgson
That doesn't erase crimes. I don't question Sasuke's survival, because he's a protagonist and will always be given a get out of jail card. It's just how it is.

But Orochimaru, despite the good he did after, doesn't get excused under any rational argument. It'd be like the BTK killer stopping a bomb from going off in a shopping mall. "Wow Mr. BTK, you sure helped us today. We're gonna keep you under house arrest, but rest assured, we're very grateful. Just don't be beating, torturing and killing anyone again you sillly goose."

You see the disconnect I assume?

What are you talking about, that shit actually happen in real life. Criminals, sadistics assholes are sometimes kept as a retainer to the government or law enforcements because no matter how evil they are, there more usefull alive than dead.

Originally posted by Damborgson
That doesn't erase crimes. I don't question Sasuke's survival, because he's a protagonist and will always be given a get out of jail card. It's just how it is.

But Orochimaru, despite the good he did after, doesn't get excused under any rational argument. It'd be like the BTK killer stopping a bomb from going off in a shopping mall. "Wow Mr. BTK, you sure helped us today. We're gonna keep you under house arrest, but rest assured, we're very grateful. Just don't be beating, torturing and killing anyone again you sillly goose."

You see the disconnect I assume?

Except it's not just a bomb in a shopping mall, it's a nuclear bomb in a shopping mall. And saving the governor and a few senators.

Remember also that freeing Minato brought the other half of Kurama into play, which saved Naruto, which saved the world. So it's also like bringing the medicine to save the person who then stopped a nuclear war.

It's very hard to get a jury to go harsh on punishments when every potential jury member very likely would've died without them.

Like SquallX said, governments really do go light on people who help- terrorists who turn on their organizations get far lighter sentences even if they've killed people in the past, and there's simply no real-world analogy to how much the four hokage + Sasuke helped.

Even so, they're clearly keeping a much tighter eye on him than they are on Sasuke.

Originally posted by Q99
Except it's not just a bomb in a shopping mall, it's a nuclear bomb in a shopping mall. And saving the governor and a few senators.

Remember also that freeing Minato brought the other half of Kurama into play, which saved Naruto, which saved the world.

It's very hard to get a jury to go harsh on punishments when every potential jury member very likely would've died without them.

Like SquallX said, governments really do go light on people who help- terrorists who turn on their organizations get far lighter sentences even if they've killed people in the past, and there's simply no real-world analogy to how much the four hokage + Sasuke helped.

Even so, they're clearly keeping a much tighter eye on him than they are on Sasuke.

Orochimaru provided the means for the world to survive. He is part of the world. It's not him going above and beyond, it is his DUTY. It's baseline human behavior from someone with the means to stop global catastophe, it'd be expected of every single person in his position. And get this, had Sasuke felt like going for the opposite team, he would have helped him do it.

None of which erases past homicide. Let alone his type of homicide.

Make it a jury of Orochimaru's dismembered victims family members and you'd probably see a different opinion. Completely different by the way. Pardoning Orochimaru is the equivalent of pardoning Osama Bin Laden. Except an Osama that had succeeded in killing the president, and the only reason he didn't destroy the country was because he was repelled, but he did unleash a weapon of mass destruction while he was there (Gaara).

Think of it this way, how is someone less of a scumbag for doing his duty? It's his duty. It's what's expected, just like every other ninja gave their all in that war, Orochimaru did what he could. It just happened to be very useful. /shrug He still should be in the ground.

Originally posted by SquallX
What are you talking about, that shit actually happen in real life. Criminals, sadistic assholes are sometimes kept as a retainer to the government or law enforcements because no matter how evil they are, there more useful alive than dead.

Are they allowed to continue butchering while they're in custody? Because Orochimaru is doing some crazy shit again. Also, did they kill the president recently? Because he did that too essentially.

Sure, he assassinated a president. He also saved *five* presidents.

And while he seems to be doing stuff, we don't see signs that he's been doing new human experimentation.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Orochimaru provided the means for the world to survive. He is part of the world. It's not him going above and beyond, it is his DUTY. It's baseline human behavior from someone with the means to stop global catastophe, it'd be expected of every single person in his position. And get this, had Sasuke felt like going for the opposite team, he would have helped him do it.

So? You can say he had to do it, but fact is he still did it.

And doing stuff like saving the five kages was an aside to that as well. Whether or not Tsunade, Onoki, A, Terumi, and Gaara lived did not directly affect things overly much at that point.

None of which erases past homicide. Let alone his type of homicide.

Which is why there's a jonin watching him. Likely Taka is a watchdog as well.

Make it a jury of Orochimaru's dismembered victims family members and you'd probably see a different opinion.

Keep in mind that people who'd have a say in a trial would include Anko and Yamato, both actual experiment victims, as well as Naruto, who Hiruzen played a large role in raising. We aren't just talking random people off the street.

Completely different by the way. Pardoning Orochimaru is the equivalent of pardoning Osama Bin Laden. Except an Osama that had succeeded in killing the president, and the only reason he didn't destroy the country was because he was repelled, but he did unleash a weapon of mass destruction while he was there (Gaara).

If Osama Bin Laden stopped a world-wide nuclear war, then yes, I would extend some leniency to him.

Orochimaru didn't get a full pardon, but still, again, Orochimaru managed to help against a much much bigger threat than himself.

Think of it this way, how is someone less of a scumbag for doing his duty? It's his duty. It's what's expected, just like every other ninja gave their all in that war, Orochimaru did what he could. It just happened to be very useful. /shrug He still should be in the ground.

What duty? He's not beholden to anyone, he is a part of no nation. He did it on his own initiative. It was to his own self-interest, but he still chose to do so.

And here's another thing- in all the ninja nations there's probably a good number of ninja guilty of a heck of a lot. But if you don't show leniency at some point, then you kick off the cycle of fighting again, and if you don't show leniency to one of the people who contributed the most *and* who does seem to be interested in moving away from what he was.

Yes, it sucks, but if you won't grant leniency for significantly contributing to saving the world, what will you grant it for?

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, he assassinated a president. He also saved *five* presidents.

And while he seems to be doing stuff, we don't see signs that he's been doing new human experimentation.

So? You can say he had to do it, but fact is he still did it.

And doing stuff like saving the five kages was an aside to that as well. Whether or not Tsunade, Onoki, A, Terumi, and Gaara lived did not directly affect things overly much at that point.

Which is why there's a jonin watching him. Likely Taka is a watchdog as well.

Keep in mind that people who'd have a say in a trial would include Anko and Yamato, both actual experiment victims, as well as Naruto, who Hiruzen played a large role in raising. We aren't just talking random people off the street.

If Osama Bin Laden stopped a world-wide nuclear war, then yes, I would extend some leniency to him.

Orochimaru didn't get a full pardon, but still, again, Orochimaru managed to help against a much much bigger threat than himself.

What duty? He's not beholden to anyone, he is a part of no nation. He did it on his own initiative. It was to his own self-interest, but he still chose to do so.

And here's another thing- in all the ninja nations there's probably a good number of ninja guilty of a heck of a lot. But if you don't show leniency at some point, then you kick off the cycle of fighting again, and if you don't show leniency to one of the people who contributed the most *and* who does seem to be interested in moving away from what he was.

Yes, it sucks, but if you won't grant leniency for significantly contributing to saving the world, what will you grant it for?

In theory. You can't prove their eminent death, since even with the Kages, Kaguya was too much, and had it not been for 6 paths, it would've been all over regardless. What isn't theory however is that he murdered a nations leader. 2 of them actually, forgot about the Kazekage.

Did that floating child come from natural, ethical means?

I say it because it's true. And helping someone from not dying if you have the means to do it is also duty, it's literally the least he could do. Not that it changes anything, nurses (who also happen to be Psychopaths) have done plenty of good in their positions, with the little problem that they overdose certain patients on medication. According to you they should be pardoned though right?

Home lock up vs death row, tell me which one he deserves more, and which is more appropriate for mass murderers/serial killers/spree killers like him.

Even after unprovoked attacks completely irrelevant from his future deeds? It'd be him killing the president, killing thousands then escaping. After that he MAY have saved the world to an extent, or at least helped. Completely irrelevant, just like Orochimarus actions. It's like a serial killer dismembering a child then stopping a nuclear bomb from going off because, well, it's right next to him. Where's the merit? Thank you for not being completely off your rocker? If anything, you're afraid to judge, which is a common human characteristic these days.

Duty to the world. In your opinion, he had no reason to help and he'd be morally neutral if he just sat down and crossed his arms instead of helping with the war? Because he wouldn't. It's duty to humanity.

That's a false slippery slope, since there will always be violence. It wouldn't be knew just because killers were convicted. Killing Orochimaru, would prevent future murders more likely than not, and provide some sense of justice for the people he's killed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We haven't been shown anything to indicate that he's going to be a likeable protagonist or that he deserves his own movie. Yes he is a child and children is irritating, neither of which are things that make him likeable or credible. Made even worserer by Sarada being better than him in every way, being both mature and sympathetic.

Well we have been shown that he really does care about his mother and in the lunch scene he mentions that part of the problem is that Naruto left when he knew she had made him lunch.

Still, dude vandalizes Mount Kagemore for attention when he has two loving parents and a girl that likes him.

Originally posted by Q99
Eh, he's a kid. Having a workaholic dad who sends *copies* to look after you kinda sucks.

I don't find that unlikable, I find that entirely normal.

Comparative perspective is something that adults have- and besides, it's not like he's saying he's got it worse. I bet if you asked him, he'd acknowledge it. But other people having it worse doesn't make him happy, because happiness doesn't work that way, and he's 12.

Yes. He's f*cking 12. And he was born in a time of peace. He has not known war like all of the adults. His problems are literally the worst thing he's experienced in his life: an absent father that he loves a bunch.

Edit - Also, I think Boruto's situation leaves room for plenty of character development. Naruto was an unjustified arrogant, incompetent, little prick when the series started. It wasn't until he mastered Shadow Clones that he showed any promise. Naruto, imo, was not very likable when the series started.

Sarada will probably give Boruto the verbal smack down, later in the series, imo. Then Boruto will pull his head out of his ass and become then 9th Hokage. Believe it.

Wow what a biitch, hope she dies.

Wel I mean come on guys, it's the only life he knows.

And DDM is correct, viewed objectively Naruto was a prick at the start of the serious. He was also hated by everyone for no immediately apparent reason, had no parents, no talent, and basically no one that cared about him.

Originally posted by Damborgson
In theory. You can't prove their eminent death, since even with the Kages, Kaguya was too much, and had it not been for 6 paths, it would've been all over regardless. What isn't theory however is that he murdered a nations leader. 2 of them actually, forgot about the Kazekage.

Naruto would be dead.

And the Hokages stopped at least one Juubi biju ball, which would've killed many, who don't come back.

Did that floating child come from natural, ethical means?

No, but that's also from pre-war.

And now he's providing relevant information on the person behind it, who's reforming a dangerous organization, and is quite likely to kill many unless stopped.

I say it because it's true. And helping someone from not dying if you have the means to do it is also duty, it's literally the least he could do.

No, the least he could do is look out for himself. Keep in mind he did not know there was no way to get clear, he came to the problem with Sasuke, Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato in tow.

Not that it changes anything, nurses (who also happen to be Psychopaths) have done plenty of good in their positions, with the little problem that they overdose certain patients on medication. According to you they should be pardoned though right?

Look, if a nurse kills a hundred people then cures AIDS, then I am totally ok with him getting much less sentence than normal. Banned from nursing, to be sure, but *cured AIDS* does weigh in. We aren't just talking some help here, but major world-changing help.

You keep using 'pardoned,' when 'watched like a hawk' is more accurate.

Home lock up vs death row, tell me which one he deserves more, and which is more appropriate for mass murderers/serial killers/spree killers like him.

Anyone who saves multiple orders of magnitude more than they kill is generally going to fall into the 'home lock up' category to me.

Duty to the world. In your opinion, he had no reason to help and he'd be morally neutral if he just sat down and crossed his arms instead of helping with the war? Because he wouldn't. It's duty to humanity.

That particular act of sitting down would be a neutral one, yes. Neither hindering nor helping.

He's given no pledge to the world, he's part of no organization that has. Tons of people are neutral.

And, regardless of whether you feel it was a duty, he was still the only person capable of that specific aid.

I will note we do reward people for fulfilling their duties in any case. Naruto's part of an organization that actually *does* give him a duty, and he's still a hero for fulfilling it.

That's a false slippery slope, since there will always be violence. It wouldn't be knew just because killers were convicted. Killing Orochimaru, would prevent future murders more likely than not, and provide some sense of justice for the people he's killed.

Maybe, maybe not. Orochimaru has reflected a change of heart, carried out a major series of actions that support that change, and is being watched by a high-level ninja, and is providing useful information that may prevent future deaths like, right now, in front of us, on page.

He is not getting by without punishment, but that punishment is simply taking account more than the negative he's done, and reduced punishment in exchange for aid is not something I find unreasonable.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes. He's f*cking 12. And he was born in a time of peace. He has not known war like all of the adults. His problems are literally the worst thing he's experienced in his life: an absent father that he loves a bunch.

I agree. He reminds me a lot of konohamaru. He will mature with age. It seems people dislike him for reasons that everyone seemed to think Sarada was such a deep character: Daddy issues. I find Sarada to be far more unlikable due to what she has done recently. She fails to be content with a parent who loves her, follows Naruto giving him the burden of having to defend children against an unknown enemy, and basically disowning and writing off the one person who cares for her deeply. I don't really care for Sakura and even I don't think she deserves to have this ungrateful brat for a daughter.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, I think Boruto's situation leaves room for plenty of character development. Naruto was an unjustified arrogant, incompetent, little prick when the series started. It wasn't until he mastered Shadow Clones that he showed any promise. Naruto, imo, was not very likable when the series started.

I disagree with the assessment of Naruto. If I had found him unlikable, I probably wouldn't have continued the manga. Yes he was brash, but it was clear very early on why he was the way he was. Dude literally had no family and nearly every single villager treated him like garbage. I actually appreciated his will and determination.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sarada will probably give Boruto the verbal smack down, later in the series, imo. Then Boruto will pull his head out of his ass and become then 9th Hokage. Believe it.