The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by leonheartmm
kakashi could see that rock lee had broken his tendons and ripped his muscles with his sharingan. so it wud seem that sharingan can see through solid objects, however kishi is always tinkering with his phenomenon so in the fight of sasuke vs deidara, he could only see the AURA of chakra in the dust cloud etc. plus there were times when the sharingan cud predict the future{i,e valley of end fight} and give one extra STRENGTH as the tomoes grew{sasuke said that the third tomoe made him feel like he had the cursed seal on}. but since then this power doesnt seem to be shown. kinda like those sharingan blades with which itachi cut orochimaru's hand off stopped being important or a definite power of the sharingan. or how itachi's mind control{like danzou} which mind wiped that girl to keep jiraya busy while he went after sasuke is forgotten. infact wast the main power of the sharingan to COPY JUTSU, and yet ever since kishi mentioned the limits to technique like compatibility with chakra type and nature manipulation, that seems to have been COMPLETELY forgotten{even though it was supposedly the MAIN reason urochimaru wanted the charingan}. as has the entire thing about the hidden village of sound or the 9 gates of energy or how the raasenshuriken is incomplete or the mixing of yin and yang. also makes no sense that sarutobi who was said to know every jutsu in the hidden leaf cud possibly know such a huge number of jutsus seeing as he was only compatible with fire and earth. also makes no sense that the abilties of hidan/kakuzu/diedara/kisame/the two faced guy etc have not been explained to be kekai genkai. also hasnt been explained how the first was retconned to be the strongest hokage even though sarutobi was said to be stronger and yondaime even stronger. danzou's explanation about the slaughter of the uchiha also retcons the reason for their demise{which was shaky to begin with}. doesnt explain how sasuke KNEW the face of madara when he showed it to him, people also forget that the chidori was NEVER an electricity elemtal attack pre shippuden and infact was said to be a speciality of the uchiha where through their REAL POWER{as said by kakashi} they cud activate their body's chakra and discharge it {he called it body activation} it through the hand and as it blasted away the air, it gained a unique sound of birds/electiry. that was retconned in shippuden to be just a simple electric attack. furthermore, doesnt explain how jutsus liek urochimaru's{almost exclusively bound with snakes} come into being having nothing to do with an element or even other main things. oh hey does no1 remember that uro had a teleportation jutsu like madara when he met up with kabuto right after the chuunin exam after kabuto had helped team 7 under disguise and then just turned into whirlwind and disappeard into the air back to wherever he came from. infact didnt the later ocnversation allude to kabuto hating him and uro challenging him to kill uro if he didnt want uro to take control of sasuke. hell wasnt kabuto's purpose for being with uro one of the biggest secrets of the series at the time since no1 beleived he was just uro's servant?

heck where IS kabuto? with half of uro in him and what about that notebook he gave to naruto?

see lots gets lost in the cracks.

anyone can recognize a loose tendon if you look hard enough

Wasn't Itachi able to see a target that was hidden behind a rock when Sasuke watched him train?

Originally posted by Kento
Wasn't Itachi able to see a target that was hidden behind a rock when Sasuke watched him train?

Yup.

However, one could also argue that he placed the target there, meaning he already knew where it was and, therefore, wasn't seeing throw a solid object. Then you could also argue, "So why did Itachi need to use his Sharingan to hit the target not in his line of sight?"

And it is at this point that I can no longer think of anything to play devil's advocate, so, you're right. It clearly sees through solid objects, like the byakugan.

That makes me think that the "seeing" differences are more than one:

1. The byakugan can see much more details of the chakra network wheras the sharingan just sees a vague out line of it, the byakugan sees discrete points in chakra network.

2. The Byakugan has a telescoping effect, meaning, it can zoom in on distances as far as 12 KM away, whereas, with the sharingan, it has normal vision.

Then, you can throw in the other differences like copy-cat stuff, etc.

Originally posted by Kento
Wasn't Itachi able to see a target that was hidden behind a rock when Sasuke watched him train?

Originally posted by King Kandy
We don't know if he saw it, or just if he knew where to aim.

Already covered that point. See my post.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then you could also argue, "So why did Itachi need to use his Sharingan to hit the target not in his line of sight?"

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because activating Sharingan slows down your sense of perception. Obviously something very useful for such acrobatic target throwing.

Occamp's Razor, man.

What makes more sense:

1. Itachi turns on his Sharingan to hit all of the targets that are in sight and out of sight, due to the Sharingan being able to see through solid objects, which has the backing of several scenarios throughout the series.

2. Itachi turned his Sharingan to throw those kunai because it slows down his sense of perception, which doesn't help him see a taget that is completely out of the line of sight, but he knows about, so he throws a kunai just right, based on his perceptions being slower, which helps him bullseye that "blind" target. Basically, slowing down his percetion made him play pool just right as he practiced that setup over and over again.

While yours is more complicated, it still is not incorrect as there's nothing wrong with it, factually. It just seems more likely that the obvious is the correct answer. There's also backing for the first as the sharingan has several scenarios that it saw or perceived through solid objects.

And, the idea that Kakashi could dicern broken tendons just by having good eye for that type of stuff is a tad absurd. Why was he using the sharingan? (Sure, we can say it was to follow Lee's movements as they were too fast to keep up with.)

I don't think my explanation is more complicated at all. Mine relies on a known sharingan power, while yours relies on one that is entirely speculation (and in fact, you're using the rock feat as evidence for the power that validates the rock feat... I think there's a specific fallacy dedicated to that kind of argument).

My interpretation from first watch was "wow, that scene is obviously meant to show Itachi's good accuracy, and how uber his sharingan made him". Besides, Sasuke tried doing the same trick, which he obviously wouldn't have attempted if it could only be done with Sharingan vision.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think my explanation is more complicated at all. Mine relies on a known sharingan power, while yours relies on one that is entirely speculation (and in fact, you're using the rock feat as evidence for the power that validates the rock feat... I think there's a specific fallacy dedicated to that kind of argument).

That, and being able to tell when someone's chakra flow is messed up, tell when someone is under a genjutsu, etc. All internal. Never once is someone shown as just a lump of chakra, it is always chakra with the lines.

And, no, no logical fallacy involved.

Originally posted by King Kandy
My interpretation from first watch was "wow, that scene is obviously meant to show Itachi's good accuracy, and how uber his sharingan made him". Besides, Sasuke tried doing the same trick, which he obviously wouldn't have attempted if it could only be done with Sharingan vision.

Exactly why it seems more likely that the sharingan assisted in seeing through a solid object rathar than it assisted someone playing pool with kunai...which wouldn't require a sharingan at all, really.

Well I think the point of that scene, was to show how Itachi's eyes made it easy for him to do stuff like that, because he could just easily do everything perfectly in slo-mo. If Sasuke could stand a chance at doing it without sharingan, then the notion that Itachi needed Sharingan so he could see through that rock isn't a feat to it's credit, it makes him look bad because it shows he needs the sharingan to hit something he can't see... any ninja graduated from the academy should be able to ricochet sharingan, as apparently it's a skill a child can master.

We never see Hyuuga doing that sort of acrobatics, but if it was seeing through objects that enabled acrobatics, then that should pretty much be their whole style.

The fact that people without any dojutsu at all can do similar things, makes the probability that seeing through the rock had a significant impact very unlikely. And as you mentioned, he shouldn't have even needed to see through the rock, since he put it there in the first place.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well I think the point of that scene, was to show how Itachi's eyes made it easy for him to do stuff like that, because he could just easily do everything perfectly in slo-mo. If Sasuke could stand a chance at doing it without sharingan, then the notion that Itachi needed Sharingan so he could see through that rock isn't a feat to it's credit, it makes him look bad because it shows he needs the sharingan to hit something he can't see... any ninja graduated from the academy should be able to ricochet sharingan, as apparently it's a skill a child can master.

Wait, no, you could be right. Here's how:

Didn't Sasuke do that SAME feat WITHOUT the sharingan? If that's the case, then that not only makes the same feat from Sasuke cool, it makes Itachi look weaker cause he had to use the sharingan to do it. AND, that means seeing the blind spot is not necessary.

However, if Sasuke did it with the sharingan, that doesn't change anything. Juggling Kunai is cool n'all, and so are the acrobatics, but, hitting a target, bullseye, with the sharingan, coupled with the other things that make it quite clear that the sharingan sees through solid objects, makes it seem rather obvious why Itachi used the sharingan: to make it to where he could see the target through the rock.

Originally posted by King Kandy
We never see Hyuuga doing that sort of acrobatics, but if it was seeing through objects that enabled acrobatics, then that should pretty much be their whole style.

Tell that to Rock Lee who had acrobatics to the max, but couldn't even land a hit on Neji.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The fact that people without any dojutsu at all can do similar things, makes the probability that seeing through the rock had a significant impact very unlikely. And as you mentioned, he shouldn't have even needed to see through the rock, since he put it there in the first place.

Actually, just the opposite. There's no reason to turn the sharingan on, if that's the case. Why use the sharingan if someone ithout dojutus could do the same?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Wait, no, you could be right. Here's how:

Didn't Sasuke do that SAME feat WITHOUT the sharingan? If that's the case, then that not only makes the same feat from Sasuke cool, it makes Itachi look weaker cause he had to use the sharingan to do it. AND, that means seeing the blind spot is not necessary.

However, if Sasuke did it with the sharingan, that doesn't change anything. Juggling Kunai is cool n'all, and so are the acrobatics, but, hitting a target, bullseye, with the sharingan, coupled with the other things that make it quite clear that the sharingan sees through solid objects, makes it seem rather obvious why Itachi used the sharingan: to make it to where he could see the target through the rock.

My point is, it's not impressive to use "x-ray vision" to hit a target... hitting a target you can't see by skill alone is way, way more impressive than hitting a target you can see, and really drives home how awesome the sharingan is. The point of that scene was "Itachi doesn't even need to see something to hit it, thanks to how uber the sharingan makes him", not "the sharingan gives x-ray vision"... that would not look impressive at all, and does nothing but make the sharingan look like a sucky byakugan.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Tell that to Rock Lee who had acrobatics to the max, but couldn't even land a hit on Neji.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Actually, just the opposite. There's no reason to turn the sharingan on, if that's the case. Why use the sharingan if someone ithout dojutus could do the same?

Note that Itachi hit targets all around him, so he couldn't really "see" most of them, only the ones in front. So clearly seeing targets is not necessary. However, a slowed rate of perception helps whether it's behind or in front of you... even if you can explain the one rock with x-ray vision, the other rocks were very difficult as well, and while you explanation doesn't explain them mine explains both.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I didn't remember if Sasuke ever successfully did it, but if he did then it definitely was without sharingan, as the only time it could have happened was in his childhood when he didn't have it.

My point is, it's not impressive to use "x-ray vision" to hit a target... hitting a target you can't see by skill alone is way, way more impressive than hitting a target you can see, and really drives home how awesome the sharingan is. The point of that scene was "Itachi doesn't even need to see something to hit it, thanks to how uber the sharingan makes him", not "the sharingan gives x-ray vision"... that would not look impressive at all, and does nothing but make the sharingan look like a sucky byakugan.

Or it could be even simpler: an awesome ninja is even awesomer when he can see through solid objects.

But, do you mind figuring out when Sasuke did his thing?

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't think you understood what I was saying... if it's x-ray vision that enables acrobatic taijutsu, then it stands to reason that Hyuugas should be using it, not guys like Rock Lee. We do see Sasuke imitating Rock Lee's acrobatics, but it was definitely with sharingan's slowing/copying, not with the visual properties. It stands to reason Itachi's works in a similar way.

Nah. I understood that. Just seems that it isn't necessary for a Hyuga because Neji WTFPWNED Rock Lee, who was much better at acrobatics than Sasuke at acrobatics, in the begining.

The Sharingan didn't enable the acrobatics, as we can clearly see. It enabled being able to hit a target that can't be seen in line-of-sight. There was this scene where Sasuke had the acrobatics, he just simply couldn't hit the "blind" target.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Because the sharingan lets you do stuff like that in your sleep. Remember when he recoched one shuriken off another, and both hit their targets? That's the impressive part, and in no way would x-ray vision aid it. Conceivably the increased rate of perception could be of great help in that feat, though.

I'm not positive, but I'm think that Sasuke couldn't hit the blind target until he got his sharingan...which more or less implies that he needed to be able to see through the target.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Note that Itachi hit targets all around him, so he couldn't really "see" most of them, only the ones in front. So clearly seeing targets is not necessary. However, a slowed rate of perception helps whether it's behind or in front of you... even if you can explain the one rock with x-ray vision, the other rocks were very difficult as well, and while you explanation doesn't explain them mine explains both.

Like you said, could be just memorizing where they are. But, for some reason, the sharingan is needed to hit the blind spot. We know that cause Sasuke couldn't do it until he had his sharingan, which was actually the point.

Again, the point was to show how the sharingan shows you that you can hit targets that you can't see because the sharingan can see through solid objects.

That, and the anime has the sharingan quite clearly seeing through solid objects, all the time.

Don't you think Kishi would have said something if they were taking the #1 most awesomenest power and doing it wrong?

😬 At this point I really wouldn't be surprised if the Sharingan suddenly has the 360 degree vision. Itachi hitting things behind him and/or hidden without even looking. Course that could also just be the fact Itachi is one of the top three most skilled ninja.

Originally posted by Kento
😬 At this point I really wouldn't be surprised if the Sharingan suddenly has the 360 degree vision. Itachi hitting things behind him and/or hidden without even looking. Course that could also just be the fact Itachi is one of the top three most skilled ninja.

Well, the question is for the manga, not the anime. In the anime, it's quite clear that it can see through solid objects. But, it's not so clear in the manga.

From what I have gathered, it seems that Naruto and Sasuke are gonna have to fight again. Just wondering how people think it will end. Will Naruto really kill Sasuke if he has to? I don't think he will, but peeps have been tellin' me that when they meet again. One of them is goin' to die.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Or it could be even simpler: an awesome ninja is even awesomer when he can see through solid objects.

But, do you mind figuring out when Sasuke did his thing?

Nah. I understood that. Just seems that it isn't necessary for a Hyuga because Neji WTFPWNED Rock Lee, who was much better at acrobatics than Sasuke at acrobatics, in the begining.

The Sharingan didn't enable the acrobatics, as we can clearly see. It enabled being able to hit a target that can't be seen in line-of-sight. There was this scene where Sasuke had the acrobatics, he just simply couldn't hit the "blind" target.

I'm not positive, but I'm think that Sasuke couldn't hit the blind target until he got his sharingan...which more or less implies that he needed to be able to see through the target.

Like you said, could be just memorizing where they are. But, for some reason, the sharingan is needed to hit the blind spot. We know that cause Sasuke couldn't do it until he had his sharingan, which was actually the point.

Again, the point was to show how the sharingan shows you that you can hit targets that you can't see because the sharingan can see through solid objects.

That, and the anime has the sharingan quite clearly seeing through solid objects, all the time.

Don't you think Kishi would have said something if they were taking the #1 most awesomenest power and doing it wrong?

Well guess what, I was looking for the ITachi and Sasuke scans and guess what, they were anime only. This whole debate was totally pointless, all the manga says is that Itachi is better at the shuriken technique than his father is, and we never actually see what the technique is, nor sasuke attempting it.

Originally posted by No End N Site
From what I have gathered, it seems that Naruto and Sasuke are gonna have to fight again. Just wondering how people think it will end. Will Naruto really kill Sasuke if he has to? I don't think he will, but peeps have been tellin' me that when they meet again. One of them is goin' to die.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, the question is for the manga, not the anime. In the anime, it's quite clear that it can see through solid objects. But, it's not so clear in the manga.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well guess what, I was looking for the ITachi and Sasuke scans and guess what, they were anime only. This whole debate was totally pointless, all the manga says is that Itachi is better at the shuriken technique than his father is, and we never actually see what the technique is, nor sasuke attempting it.

Originally posted by Kento
😕 Are you talking about when Itachi hits the hidden target?