Yeah I don't see the purpose making a character saying something that grand scale if it held no truth. But we're supposed to take Jiraya's and Pains words seriously about so and so being the strongest of all ninjas?
Anyway, can't wait for next week, the anime seems to be epic with whats coming for Hinata.
Originally posted by killermover
Yeah I don't see the purpose making a character saying something that grand scale if it held no truth. But we're supposed to take Jiraya's and Pains words seriously about so and so being the strongest of all ninjas?Anyway, can't wait for next week, the anime seems to be epic with whats coming for Hinata.
Originally posted by King KandySO you just admit Kishimoto totally made plot holes in the characters statements about the vadilty of their hype and significance. Thats terrible writing, and even if it's misinterped bias, Major characters shouldn't have to be biased and contridictive about the certain details that constitute their overall power.
What? Obviously we don't take Jiraiya's words seriously when he got his ass totally kicked by Pain... You're pretty much suggesting that anything a character boasts should automatically be true. Gato's bodyguards said they were awesome samurai but they got owned worse than any actual samurai from the land of iron. Orochimaru said he was immortal and unbeatable and now he's gone... i've never heard such a ridiculous standard in my life.
Theirs a difference between a minor character saying he's the best, and a major character saying he's the best because mainly they are usually the best since they are the focal points of the series.
Thats like saying Sasuke is weaker and less impressive than Neji from Kakashi even thought Sasuke sharingan got more and more hax and Neji got left in the dirt.
Major characters shouldn't have to be biased and contridictive about the certain details that constitute their overall power.
Sure they should, if it's in character. Every character has their own point of view which may not include all information. We can generally assume their statements are true to the best of their knowledge, but there's also stuff they don't know.
Misjudging a situation is something that happens, and there's even a classic literary device where the person narrating the situation is unreliable in themselves.
The context of a statement and the speaker still matters a lot. I can think of a way to explain it that makes a fair amount of sense:
The recent Uchiha grew up in an environment where the Senju had apparently splintered and is no longer one single clan so at clan meetings, they're the toughest around, and yet they still aren't in charge. So they could very well view themselves as unrivalled as a clan nowadays, or unfairly kept from the top, when the Senju descendants while no longer a single clan are still their equal as ninja.
The statement in that context is technically accurate and may give the Uchiha an overly full-of-themselves view of themselves, while still being misleading.
Originally posted by Q99Every character has a knowledgeable understanding about their POV, but that doesn't mean they have to be wrong for the sake of the plot that their established upon. It makes them..........inconsistant. Up until Pain was introduced, Killer Bee and Jyuubi, the Uchiha had the pinnicle of power second to none as compared to the Kyuubi no Yoko. Kishimoto wrote in a second rate add in to emphasize his main character's great role to be incredibly overpowered in his endevors against Madara and Sasuke but in the process made the two Uchiha's insignificant in overall backstory and feats since they were emphasized as the de facto main obstacles the Main character would measure against. But Sasuke has lost to many fights, failed to meet expectations, and has stumbled into "Vegeta" territory all for the sake of the plot and jepordized his characters meaning as the great genius above average to all. Don't get me started on Madara.
Sure they should, if it's in character. Every character has their own point of view which may not include all information. We can generally assume their statements are true to the best of their knowledge, but there's also stuff they don't know.
It's poor writing, why make Sasuke a cocky douche bag and not have him back it up with some sort of overpowered edge on everybody, he's destined to lose to Naruto after all.
Misjudging a situation is something that happens, and there's even a classic literary device where the person narrating the situation is unreliable in themselves.That certain plot device should only apply to the villains and minor characters not the main characters. Otherwises it ends up as PIS and crappy inconsistancy. If a main character like Sasuke is wrong, why should he still be driven to a context of being incredibly arrogant and self confident without the proper indication of his skills and talents? It just comes off as poor execution, because Sasuke is a genius yet he's still not good enough against certain ninjas. Plus people love it when Naruto is right, goodwilled and undeniably trustworthy.
The context of a statement and the speaker still matters a lot. I can think of a way to explain it that makes a fair amount of sense:Thats just conjecture. The Uchiha's were said to be without rival and beyond that of the lesser clans in the shinobi world. Of course there were a few exceptions, like Minato but ever since Madara came into the plot, they were written as sick, insane, greedy bastards who were powerless against the Senju and got killed by a kid who was their pride and joy in Uchiha status. It makes them look silly in contrast to the hype they were given in past chapters. Kishimoto made it absoulte that a Uchiha clan member was stronger than anyone outside the Jinnchuriki hosts and Hokages, made absolute even but Kishi retconed them in order to make a significant change to Naruto's story and make him significant as well. Kishimoto doesn't know how to keep things consistant. Itachi was a a genius, he said that the Uchiha's were the most feared/strongest in the world and yet we got dudes like Bee, Pain, Kisame and Sage Mode all retconed from their original standards to keep the plot diverse.
The recent Uchiha grew up in an environment where the Senju had apparently splintered and is no longer one single clan so at clan meetings, they're the toughest around, and yet they still aren't in charge. So they could very well view themselves as unrivalled as a clan nowadays, or unfairly kept from the top, when the Senju descendants while no longer a single clan are still their equal as ninja.
I feel Kishimoto writes the Uchiha subplot to emphasize how great other people in his story are compared to Sasuke and Itachi and explain why they're characters are better than Uchiha characters. Everyone hates Sasuke, but people like Pain who is Sasuke with a Darth Vader theme. People often say how Kumo is Badass yet they forgot they're the reason the main characters mother and the main characters love interest got kidnapped. But nope, thats all in the past because Bee beat up Sasuke.
Theres more I want to add but I got to go to work.
Originally posted by killermover😕 Weren't they only said to be the strongest clan in Konoha...rivaled only by the Hyuuga. Before Madara's whole Uchiha were second only to Senju in the world statement to Sasuke.
Kishimoto made it absoulte that a Uchiha clan member was stronger than anyone outside the Jinnchuriki hosts and Hokages,.
Originally posted by King Kandy
You skipped the one page IN BETWEEN those, where the Kyuubi was about to kick the ass of all the naru clones en masse, only to get tripped up by his mom, allowing Naruto to do the finishing blow.http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/89152425/7
At no point since it was chained, did the Kyuubi have free reign to attack Naruto.
I didn't skip anything. His mother tripping the Kyuubi after it was still partially chained, but less chained than the image before that page, and more than the image I posted after that page, does not work towards the actual point: the Kyuubi was NOT beat down while chained up like you said he was.
Remember, you said this:
"yes, beating a kyuubi that was just a chained up punching bag is very impressive."
I thoroughly disproved that.
Originally posted by King Kandy
When you quoted me, it was right after the chapter came out, and what I thought the chapter was saying is that Naruto was the Sage (reincarnation or whatever). So, kind of moot now because it's been clarified.
Actually, I thought you were making fun of Naruto being overpowered by using a sealing technique that seems to be unique to the Sage...so I thought you called him the Sage in mockery...so no harm done.
Every character has a knowledgeable understanding about their POV, but that doesn't mean they have to be wrong for the sake of the plot that their established upon. It makes them..........inconsistant. Up until Pain was introduced, Killer Bee and Jyuubi, the Uchiha had the pinnicle of power second to none as compared to the Kyuubi no Yoko. Kishimoto wrote in a second rate add in to emphasize his main character's great role to be incredibly overpowered in his endevors against Madara and Sasuke but in the process made the two Uchiha's insignificant in overall backstory and feats since they were emphasized as the de facto main obstacles the Main character would measure against. But Sasuke has lost to many fights, failed to meet expectations, and has stumbled into "Vegeta" territory all for the sake of the plot and jepordized his characters meaning as the great genius above average to all. Don't get me started on Madara.
I disagree. When Sasuke loses fights, it's because he rushes head-on into S-class foes because he has been slowly going insane, which isn't inconsistant with Uchiha being the most powerful clan. And it doesn't make them inconsistant to be wrong and have rivals, it makes them incorrect one one thing, nothing more, and they're still without a doubt some of the top ninja.
Even before Killerbee and such were around, there was still Sarutobi and the like.
Also I'd hardly call the Uchiha insignificant, even with their losses Sasuke's clearly still on the rise on power and Madara is still behind a big chunk of the struggles in the world's history. You seem to be overly polarizing things- 'Either the Uchiha are the best ever or they're a joke'. I disagree, they can have peers and still be far from a joke.
It's poor writing, why make Sasuke a cocky douche bag and not have him back it up with some sort of overpowered edge on everybody,.[/quoteHe does have one, the Eternal Mangekyo. Heck, the Susano'o wasn't a bad one while he could keep it going.
Even though he lost, he fought against multiple Kage, and then killed a semi-Kage in a fair fight. Doing as well as he did showed insane raw power, and he's still getting stronger.
[quote]That certain plot device should only apply to the villains and minor characters not the main characters. Otherwises it ends up as PIS and crappy inconsistancy. If a main character like Sasuke is wrong, why should he still be driven to a context of being incredibly arrogant and self confident without the proper indication of his skills and talents?
No, no it shouldn't and the plot device is specifically applied to main characters, that's the device. Some of the greatest works in history are so because we think things are one way and then discover they're different.
It is often a major point of a plot that a main character's wrong in some manner, and that's overly the case in Naruto- there are two main schools of thought in the Ninja world who have clashed repeatedly and who think the other is wrong, for example.
It's not inconsistancy, it doesn't wreck the story, it's a character being wrong, and simply makes it a less straitforward plot. And it's not even PIS- the characters who said it had every reason to believe it to be true and thus to be motivated in part by it. It makes perfect sense for Sasuke to believe it and for him to be as driven as he is, and the Uchiha are still some of the strongest ninja on the planet. The fact that they have some rivals instead of no rivals doesn't actually change a lot.
This insistance on major characters always being right or the story is flawed is a you-thing. It doesn't necessarily follow that that's logically the case, it's how it's done.
Thats just conjecture. The Uchiha's were said to be without rival and beyond that of the lesser clans in the shinobi world.
Which doesn't mean individual ninja can't rival individual Uchiha.
And it's technically right- the Senju were their only rivals and the Senju don't seem to be a clan any more.
People often say how Kumo is Badass yet they forgot they're the reason the main characters mother and the main characters love interest got kidnapped. But nope, thats all in the past because Bee beat up Sasuke.
One of the big story parts is how every village has done that kind of thing in the past and how they should react to such ties of hatred that tie the ninja world.
Originally posted by Q99When Sasuke loses fights, he gets his pride and dignity crushed like a grape because he fell up short. Kishimoto has been driving Sasuke from cool headed tatcian to emo crazy ameaturto hype other characters that Sasuke shouldn't have to be sweating against. It's inconistant with his portrayal as cool and perfect genius prodigy, even more so it contridicts his role as someone who's supposed to be the opposite of the traits Sasuke exibits when he gets the shit kicked out of him.
I disagree. When Sasuke loses fights, it's because he rushes head-on into S-class foes because he has been slowly going insane, which isn't inconsistant with Uchiha being the most powerful clan.
And it doesn't make them inconsistant to be wrong and have rivals, it makes them incorrect one one thing, nothing more, and they're still without a doubt some of the top ninja.Uchiha's are supposed to have the most respected hype as a clan of powerful ninjas. Uchiha's were the top brass of Konoha the reason why Sasuke was so loved, because he as the last survivor and the over achiver prodigy that did A rank jutsu and succeded the imagination in shinobi skills. I call it bad writing when one hypes an aspect of a character and makes them incredibly insufficiant in the process.
Sarutobi was killed by a guy who had the Sharingan on lock as his characters purpose, but then the Sandaime took to Naruto's potential more than Sasuke's because of being the son of the 4th. Thats an example of indirect trolling of Sasuke and his plot, Sasuke was the main event at the chunnin exams yet before he died focused on Naruto's develoment. See Sasuke gets dehyped when a character with bigger signifcance comes to the game and showcases his stuff so the main character can look good, leaving him one step behing the crowed and being desperate for power. This has been Sasuke's development in Part 1, and it seems it's the same for him in part 2 as well.
I'd rather read a manga were a statement from a relevant character is took as cannon fact as much as the plot indicates it. Incorrect characters? Why should any character be wrong about their roles and presentations when they have nothing to flesh out on?
Even before Killerbee and such were around, there was still Sarutobi and the like.Itachi > Sarutobi, Hell Itachi was final villain material until they introduced Pain.
But this is Sasuke that carries the Uchiha plotline, not Itachi, how can his bloodline be supreme if he himself is not timw and time again? Bee beat his ass and then tricked him to taking a fake tentacle to the final villain. That is not what a perfect rival should be.
Also I'd hardly call the Uchiha insignificant, even with their losses Sasuke's clearly still on the rise on power and Madara is still behind a big chunk of the struggles in the world's history.Kishimoto screwed up that part of the plot IMO, considering Madara is a shell of his former self. He started War that is mostly suicide on his part against the whole world and Sasuke still has no chance of beating Naruto, so you basically got a one sided event written to specifically endorse the Uchiha's failures once more. It doesn't matter how Madara effects certain parts of the story, it's how good his impact actually looks compared to his current situation. He already got owned twice, the third time seems predictible to even be called foreshadowing.
You seem to be overly polarizing things- 'Either the Uchiha are the best ever or they're a joke'. I disagree, they can have peers and still be far from a joke.Unlike you, I like straight forward stories and plots, the reason DBZ and One Piece are better than any shounen manga to date. FMA being the only exception. The Uchiha clan was my reason for reading this manga, now I can't enjoy the story because their showhorned in every aspect of the manga to lose to everyone with some hax abilties.
No, no it shouldn't and the plot device is specifically applied to main characters, that's the device. Some of the greatest works in history are so because we think things are one way and then discover they're different.Too bad this is a childrens manga and any instance of complexity is null and void due to it's childish theme and idea messages.
It is often a major point of a plot that a main character's wrong in some manner, and that's overly the case in Naruto- there are two main schools of thought in the Ninja world who have clashed repeatedly and who think the other is wrong, for example.The points and the key elements don't have to be mutally exclusive sometimes, they can differ from each other to constitue a better retrospective of whats what. Sasuke has no reason to contridict his own damn character, he's supposed to be the opposite to Naruto not similar. Naruto might make mistakes and feel bad, doesn't mean Sasuke needs to.
You know the story was much more interesting when Kishi didn't have to use the "return of the jedi" plotline and just focused on Naruto being a damn hokage.
It's not inconsistancy, it doesn't wreck the story, it's a character being wrong, and simply makes it a less straitforward plot.I like straigtforward plots, especially in a childrens manga about magic ninjas.
And it's not even PIS- the characters who said it had every reason to believe it to be true and thus to be motivated in part by it.It's not only PIS, it's a retcon. Why just stick to a straight plotline without adding him inconvieant plot twists?
It makes perfect sense for Sasuke to believe it and for him to be as driven as he is, and the Uchiha are still some of the strongest ninja on the planet. The fact that they have some rivals instead of no rivals doesn't actually change a lot.No it doesn't. Sasuke is the last Uchiha after his brother, he should be granted special traits that make him stand out above everyone. He should be as smart or smarter than shikamaru, as fast as Lee, and as clever as Naruto. But all he does is brag about Uchiha and gets his butt handed to him and made into a manipulative dog.
This insistance on major characters always being right or the story is flawed is a you-thing. It doesn't necessarily follow that that's logically the case, it's how it's done.If they're right in all aspects of their execution, they're consistant and well characterized. Leave that stuff for manga's like Gantz and Berserk, doesn't belong in Shounen.
Which doesn't mean individual ninja can't rival individual Uchiha.Ever since Sasuke lost the CS and finished fighting Itachi, he can't even rival base jounins anymore with his base. Because he's that weak.And it's technically right- the Senju were their only rivals and the Senju don't seem to be a clan any more.
Sasuke the main rival genius is nothing but a shell of his formerself. Kishimoto screwed his character up the second he introduced Killer Bee and the stupid Kage summit.
And technically the Senju are everywhere, the Senju populated with all of the leaf village. The Uchiha are the ones wiped out on the planet.
One of the big story parts is how every village has done that kind of thing in the past and how they should react to such ties of hatred that tie the ninja world.The past also tells that the Uchiha's are the bad guys, the losers, the hatred aspects of the ninja world and the main ones causing all the mess.
If Sasuke was a villain to being with, I'd accept it, but not this way, not in a way that basically makes Sasuke all poorly executed as a character to make Naruto seem better in comparison. Thats lame.
So Sasuke should be completely perfect, with no rivals, and just stand head and shoulders over everybody?
Holy shit, Naruto is far from the best manga out there, but that would make it even WORSE. That my friend is trademark example of the Ace and a God Mode Sue, two Sues that, when main characters, suck ass.
You do realise Sasuke at the age of 16 is a Kage level ninja? Yet you do not think he is strong enough? Now, with the EMS, he will be even more powerful, and will have the benefit of unlimited Mangekyo jutsu.
He's already FAR above all of his former peers with the exception of Naruto, and only Naruto, and was strong enough to fight with and even beat a powerful Kage level ninja, who was considered one of the best of the village, as stated by the Elders. He is plenty strong enough, for him to be above everyone to the extent you say he would either have be a boring, badly-written character, or the final antagonist, and even then, an invincible, uber competent villain is boring, ala Aizen.
Also, Sarutobi in his prime was far more powerful than Itachi could have ever hoped to be.
This is his strongest ninjutsu attack Kirin:
The neighing of an angry divine beast goes down in an attack that shakes the Heavens and moves the Earth!!
The technique Sasuke thought out, said to be the culmination of the Lightning nature. First one uses a technique from the Fire Release line, like the Great Dragon Fire,** to radically heat up the atmosphere, creating a violent updraught. The updraught creates cumulonimbus clouds*** and from the cumulonimbus clouds breaks forth lightning...!! One changes the shape of this lightning, guides it to the target, and uses it to destroy the enemy in a roar that makes even the Heavens tremble. Because this ninjutsu makes good use of a natural phenomenon, one can invoke it using only a small quantity of chakra. Sasuke, aspiring to become the pinnacle of shinobi, finally tamed even "lightning" itself~~.
I wish sometimes Sasuke was the main character, then he wouldn't have to be so lame.
Originally posted by NemeBro]Sasuke's feats don't mean shit when he can't apply them properly. His brother was Kage level ninja when he was 14. He killed the Uchiha clan and defeated Orochrimaru. Minato created the Rasangan. Kakashi created Chidori when he was a chunin. At 16, Sasuke just embraced his genius as a late bloomer.
So Sasuke should be completely perfect, with no rivals, and just stand head and shoulders over everybody?[QUOTE/]I'm not saying he should be all perfect, I'm saying he should be better characterized for his archetype and have better uses of his powers instead of spam no jutsu. I want him to be Itachi basically and just ooze out abilities and skills beyond normal ninjas and experienced fighters.Holy shit, Naruto is far from the best manga out there, but that would make it even WORSE. That my friend is trademark example of the Ace and a God Mode Sue, two Sues that, when main characters, suck ass.I'd rather have a Sue than a Vegeta rip off.[QUOTE]You do realise Sasuke at the age of 16 is a Kage level ninja? Yet you do not think he is strong enough? Now, with the EMS, he will be even more powerful, and will have the benefit of unlimited Mangekyo jutsu.
He's already FAR above all of his former peers with the exception of Naruto, and only Naruto, and was strong enough to fight with and even beat a powerful Kage level ninja, who was considered one of the best of the village, as stated by the Elders.Sasuke jobbed to most of his enemies, the rookie nine are shafted for Naruto and Sasuke so thats nothing new. Even then, Itachi's still superior than him as he one shotted a Sannin, even Naruto beat a Kage level ninja with just one jutsu can't say the same with Sasuke?
He is plenty strong enough, for him to be above everyone to the extent you say he would either have be a boring, badly-written character, or the final antagonist, and even then, an invincible, uber competent villain is boring, ala Aizen.First of all your just placing Sasuke above others so you can deny the fact Sasuke is a badly written character all because you accept Kishimoto's handle on Sasuke because you probably despise him as much as Kishi does and also accept Sasuke's fails and flaws because you don't want him to improve more than he possibly can in character or in power. Secondly, Aizen is one the best written character in Shounen because he's one step ahead everyone else and a great foil to the main lead as a villain, he's like an anti alucard. Thirdly, Sasuke is boring, hell he was interesting when he was being a aura of inviciblity with his Hebi skills and was a very calm and collected person this time around for the sake of reaching his brothers standards. He's the best portrayal of Sasuke ever.
Also, Sarutobi in his prime was far more powerful than Itachi could have ever hoped to be.He's weaker than Itachi because Tsukuyomi > Him.
Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
agree with Nemebro, prime Sarutobi >>> Itachi...despite holding off Orochimaru, Shodaime, and Nidaime at his age and condition, Enma still described Sarutobi as pathetic compared to when he was young...
prime Sarutobi is a beast...
To be fair, Shodaime and Nidaime didn't seem to be going all-out, more wearing him down, but *yea*. Even if they're not pulling out all the stops, that's three S-class at once.
Originally posted by KentoHow is a old guy faster than a dude with the sharingan and an equal speed stat? Now your underestimating Sasuke.
Kirin, a non-factor when Hebi Sasuke goes against somebody stronger, smarter, and not taking it easy on him.
Smarter is debateable, but Sasuke makes up for fore thought on attacks and variation. He thinks two steps ahead when he fights seriously.
Sasuke has Oro's powers meaning Snake Summons, Snake Kiwimari and even the White Snake. That makes him Kage level right there.