The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hard to say whether or not an insanely skilled user of the Rinn'egan can use the advanced nature types. shrug So far, all we have to go on is Nagato, who never did.

The Sage did invent Ninjutsu, but he could not have invented EVERY single jutsu in existence currently.
Some of these newer jutsus were tied to Kekkai Genkais. Various Kekkai Genkais could likely just be mutations, which would mean that the Sage/Nagato could not have the same ability as they lack the necessary genetic makeup.

Soma No Ko was Sakon/Ukon's ability, but I doubt the two Rinnegan users could use that.

- EDIT-

shodai had a mutation that allowed him to mix his two affinities, the 2nd hokage only was known for his uber water jutsus without kekkei genkai

Personally I like the setting more if it's "The Sage founded ninjutsu and had some powerful kekkei genkai, but once he got things going others were able to come up with their own jutsu and find other kekkei genkai" rather than all of it coming from him directly.

Originally posted by Q99
Personally I like the setting more if it's "The Sage founded ninjutsu and had some powerful kekkei genkai, but once he got things going others were able to come up with their own jutsu and find other kekkei genkai" rather than all of it coming from him directly.

This is more of what a subscribe to.

There's no way that the Great Sage could have mastered the Rasenshuriken. Surely a devastating attack like that would have survived generations such as the 10-tails idea.

The sage didn't invent hardly any Jutsu's, IMO.

Originally posted by King Kandy
As you say, Nagato didn't... I believe someone on level with the sage could, however. You may disagree. It was stated clearly that the power of the uchihas and their eyes came from the sage's power, which makes me think that the kekkai genkai can be used by him, especially given how the sharingan is not even a mixed-element kekkai genkai (unless it has to do with yin and yang manipulation, which is ill-defined).

Yes, but the Sharingan is still different from the Rinnegan, physically, and genetically.
IMO, the Sage may be able to use those Sharingan jutsus while he was the Juubi's Jinchuriiki, due to the as-of-yet unexplained connection between the Juubi and the Sharingan. When he had the Rinnegan only, I sincerely doubt he could do any jutsu that was tied to a different Kekkai Genkai, simply because he lacks the necessary genetic traits. The Rinnegan itself is also believed to be a genetic trait, or at least, it's classified as doujutsu and the other two doujutsu are Kekkai Genkai.

The Juubi's eye appeared to actually be some weird blend between the Sharingan and the Rinnegan.

Originally posted by Q99
It wouldn't surprise me if the element ones are Rinnegan mutations too. Just as the Rinnegan is better than the sharingan but the sharingan's best versions have some advantages, perhaps the element kekkei genkai are more specific variants of it's ability to let people use elements.

Of course, we don't necessarily know that all of them come from the Sage's line at all. It may just be the kind of thing that happens with the genetics in the world. Rinnegan did pop up on it's own after all. They also seem the simplest conceptually- the genes that make someone naturally aspected to one element or another exist for multiple elements (or are otherwise linked) in the same person.

I think both Haku and his mother had Ice, so it seems they can pass down, but don't necessarily do so.

Hm, we don't really know of any clans revolving around a combined element kekkei genkai, unlike the eye ones which seem to always pass down. (Amateur generic hour to follow) So it may they are normally recessive and only show up occasionally.

It could be that there's a general set of genes for element aptitude, some dominant and some recessive, and kekkei genkai happen when two (or in Mei Terumi's case, three) of them all manage to activate in one person. So (using upper-case for dominant and lower case for recessive, and Wi / wi = Wind, E / e = Earth, Wa / wa = Water etc.) someone might need WaE to have mokuton, while Wae would just be a water user who could also use Earth (like perhaps the Second Hokage, his brother).

Or even more complex than that. We know it's not just one pair, since it's possible to have three.

But whatever the case, it seems likely that while the eyes can be passed over in their entirety, elements are *probably* a combination of the parent's genetic traits in respect to elements, so there's more chance involved and a lot of people likely have an incomplete set needed for the kekkei genkai.

Could be entirely possible. After all, the Sage was the first one to use all 6 nature types and the first one to use ninjutsu. He then passes down his genes and knowledge, and through time, certain mutations occur that allow select individuals the ability to manipulate and combine two elements.

Yeah, I remembered the Haku thing. His mother was a carrier of the trait required for Hyouton, which means that Hyouton is probably a recessive trait. That's likely the case for all the other elemental kekkai genkais.

So far, all we know is that every single ninjutsu user has an affinity to a certain element, which means that genetically, they all have the genes for one type of nature transformation.
Or, it could be that the ability to combine elements could be a co-dominant trait, and the ability to use other elements in addition to your own, is simply just due to training and/or genius.

Sharingan is slightly weird though. To date, we haven't been shown any female Sharingan wielders. So it's entirely possible that the allele for the trait is carried on the Y-chromosome. Then there's the fact that the activation of the Sharingan requires an intense emotional experience which is why not all Uchiha have the Sharingan.
Byakugan has been shown in both males and females, and no such emotional experience is required.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is more of what a subscribe to.

There's no way that the Great Sage could have mastered the Rasenshuriken. Surely a devastating attack like that would have survived generations such as the 10-tails idea.

The sage didn't invent hardly any Jutsu's, IMO.

DDM's post came off as pretty sarcastic to me.

Originally posted by King Kandy
What makes you think he couldn't have done Rasenshuriken?

Simple:

Cause it's not a Kekkei Genkai. You have to actually train and learn it AND for what I already said in my post.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Obviously he didn't create it, but if he had known of his existence he would have been able to do the correct transformations to create it. I mean he had better things to do than create nature jutsu all day, so just because he didn't make a jutsu doesn't mean there's "no way" he would have been capable of doing so.

You've assumed that he knew about mass Shadow Clone training which is only ever seen from Naruto, no one else.

And I think you misread my post.

Reread this:

"There's no way that the Great Sage could have mastered the Rasenshuriken."

There's no evidence that the Great Sage invented and then perfected the Rasenshuriken as it seems like a creation of Naruto's, altogether. Sure, the 4th and Kakashi had an idea about it, but they didn't know the outcome or even the "nature of the beast". Hardly any Jutsus were created by the Great Sage as everyone went to town with their own thing. It's like saying that he painted every painting in all of Naruto-verse history and no new creativity can occur as everyone sits around and thinks of the same paintings, coicidentally, and paints them. That just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

So far, all we know is that every single ninjutsu user has an affinity to a certain element, which means that genetically, they all have the genes for one type of nature transformation.
Or, it could be that the ability to combine elements could be a co-dominant trait, and the ability to use other elements in addition to your own, is simply just due to training and/or genius.

Yea, that seems likely.

Sharingan is slightly weird though. To date, we haven't been shown any female Sharingan wielders. So it's entirely possible that the allele for the trait is carried on the Y-chromosome. Then there's the fact that the activation of the Sharingan requires an intense emotional experience which is why not all Uchiha have the Sharingan.
Byakugan has been shown in both males and females, and no such emotional experience is required.

Though female Uchiha has a tiny sample size that we've never seen in combat (Mikoto could have it, just not have turned it on), so I don't think we can draw much on sex linked traits from that.

In this pic: Founding Uchiha, the one with the tattooed cheeks looks female to me too, though that's not definitive.

And yea, the emotion upgrade thing is a bit odd.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Simple:
You've assumed that he knew about mass Shadow Clone training which is only ever seen from Naruto, no one else.

And I think you misread my post.

Reread this:

"There's no way that the Great Sage could have mastered the Rasenshuriken."

There's no evidence that the Great Sage invented and then perfected the Rasenshuriken as it seems like a creation of Naruto's, altogether. Sure, the 4th and Kakashi had an idea about it, but they didn't know the outcome or even the "nature of the beast". Hardly any Jutsus were created by the Great Sage as everyone went to town with their own thing. It's like saying that he painted every painting in all of Naruto-verse history and no new creativity can occur as everyone sits around and thinks of the same paintings, coicidentally, and paints them. That just doesn't make sense.

He's the Juubi's Jinchurikii, so he's more than capable of mega mass-shadow clone training. He's also far more intelligent than Naruto as he was the one who understood the nature of chakra, and the one who invented ninjutsu, so if The Sage were currently alive, he definitely would have known about the perks of Kage Bunshin no Jutsu.

I see no reason why he could not master an elemental version of Rasengan.

Seeing as the Sage would probably not know how to perform Sage Mode, you're right, he wouldn't be able to master Rasenshuriken. 🙂

He's a Sage, so logically, he knows Sage mode. 131

Hm, come to think of it Rinnegan is emotionally-activated too, or at least was in Nagato's case.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He's the Juubi's Jinchurikii, so he's more than capable of mega mass-shadow clone training. He's also far more intelligent than Naruto as he was the one who understood the nature of chakra, and the one who invented ninjutsu, so if The Sage were currently alive, he definitely would have known about the perks of Kage Bunshin no Jutsu.

That wasn't my point, though, at all. I'm pretty sure that if Naruto and him trained side by side, Naruto would learn the technique faster than the Great Sage because Naruto has Kishiplot No Jutsu and the Sage doesn't.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I see no reason why he could not master an elemental version of Rasengan.

Seeing as the Sage would probably not know how to perform Sage Mode, you're right, he wouldn't be able to master Rasenshuriken. 🙂

Again, that wasn't my point.

The Sage could probably instantly learn any jutsu he wanted if he had prior knowledge of it. 😐

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, that seems likely.

Though female Uchiha has a tiny sample size that we've never seen in combat (Mikoto could have it, just not have turned it on), so I don't think we can draw much on sex linked traits from that.

In this pic: Founding Uchiha, the one with the tattooed cheeks looks female to me too, though that's not definitive.

And yea, the emotion upgrade thing is a bit odd.

That might be due to females not having the Sharingan. The Uchiha were already combat-oriented without the Sharingan (shuriken techniques, Katon jutsu and Mikoto would have been an excellent kunoichi even without the Sharingan. The Konoha Police Force also seemed to be made up of males only.

Yeah, it isn't definitive. After all, we have Haku, a male who in the words of Naruto, is cuter than Sakura, who is rather cute herself. Then there's Sasuke, who is a Bishounen going by the thousands of women throwing themselves at his feet due to his looks. So yeah.

Meh, many people believe that Kishimoto hates females, so that's likely why he only drew male sharingan wielders. 😆

Originally posted by NemeBro
He's a Sage, so logically, he knows Sage mode. 131

Juubi chakra >[^∞] Sage mode chakra. uhuh
He's above Sage mode. vin

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, come to think of it Rinnegan is emotionally-activated too, or at least was in Nagato's case.

Good point. If that's the case for the Rinn'egan as well, then I guess the Byakugan is not connected to the Rinn'egan and the Juubi like the Sharingan is. biscuits

Originally posted by dadudemon
That wasn't my point, though, at all. I'm pretty sure that if Naruto and him trained side by side, Naruto would learn the technique faster than the Great Sage because Naruto has Kishiplot No Jutsu and the Sage doesn't.

Again, that wasn't my point.

Was your point that he did not create Rasenshuriken? Yeah, that's highly probable, as I doubt he created the Rasengan instead of Minato. He could not have created every single jutsu in existence today.

Plot no jutsu has no bearing in what we're discussing. That's basic PIS, and PIS isn't a part of Naruto's actual skill-set. Otherwise, he'd beat opponents far more powerful than he is in KMC battles.

The Sage is the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, which is why he's leagues above Naruto in everything bar determination. Determination itself is a big 'IF', seeing as the Sage started the ninja movement, and starting something like that requires far more determination than you'd find in a cereal box.
He'd have exponentially more chakra and stamina to dish out for his training, not to mention, far more experience with the 6 nature types. He would come up with a elemental Rasengan for each of the 5 primary nature types in the time Naruto took to create his Fuuton: Rasengan.

Or is NemeBro right, and you were in fact being sarcastic in your earlier post? 😛

Not to mention that the Sage is supposed to be the origin of the whole "will of fire" thing, so his determination was probably on par with Naruto as well.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That might be due to females not having the Sharingan. The Uchiha were already combat-oriented without the Sharingan (shuriken techniques, Katon jutsu and Mikoto would have been an excellent kunoichi even without the Sharingan. The Konoha Police Force also seemed to be made up of males only.

But we didn't see that many of 'em (3 or 4, I think?), and female ninja are a minority anyway, so that's not too surprising.

Mikoto's listed as a jonin, so if she managed to make it that far in the Uchiha without a sharingan, that'd be pretty darn impressive, but I think it's more likely we just didn't see a situation where she had reason to activate it.

Good point. If that's the case for the Rinn'egan as well, then I guess the Byakugan is not connected to the Rinn'egan and the Juubi like the Sharingan is.

Yea, either that or a major mutation that tossed all that in exchange for easier usage/no special inherent jutsu. The differences are significant enough to be either one.

Hm... speaking of kekkei genkai that are likely not possessed by the sage or descended from ones that are, I have trouble picturing the sage with the Kaguya clan's bone jutsu.