Originally posted by killermover
Yeah, um you know he was bluffing his moves, he knew Orochimaru was watching him so in essense, Sasuke had to play the bad guy to get Naruto and Sakura out of there and not resort to bringing them into his revenge.I believe this is satated in the databook.
Also, Sasuke had saved Karin because he cared about her at that point, hence forth the flashback. His development makes no sense after that point because he basically deciedes to screw Taka over and become Darth Emo. Getting asskicked by nigga's can do that to a person.
Can you see the inferiority complex seen in Part 1? Both masquerading as arrogant self-confidence that goes and trespasses conceit. Sasuke, in order to assert his existence, must become strong enough to surpass and kill his borther which can be explained as a sub-conscious fulfilment of becoming-a-true-Uchiha criterias his father arbitarily created.
One of the main reasons Sasuke is still hated, to this very day and minute I am writing this, is because he betrayed Konoha and his friends to go under the wing of Orochimaru. A truly Faustian hero who sold his soul and body in order to fulfill his desire. On the contrary, our blond hero would have never done the same; this is the reason he is the absolute light.
Everything in the manga since the beginning of the Chuunin Exam arc has made Naruto's acquisition of power easier, and Sasuke's more difficult. First, Naruto was given a Sannin teacher along with some perks: an alocoholic yet sympathetic Hokage who allows him unlimited freedom , a tremendous and almost exploitively powerful training method (TKB), a team of support-trainers (Yamato, Kakashi).
Sasuke was left with what? A teacher who was reluctant to teach him and train him because he was afraid of the possibility that anger and revenge consumed Sasuke (Kakashi), a Sharingan that failed to help him when he needed help(Lee, Haku), while his Cursed power was prohibited even though the same cannot be said for Naruto's Kyuubi.
Is it any wonder, then, that Sasuke realized he was not gaining in power by following his path? His choice to leave then was both expectable(not necessarily from a plot point) and inevitable.
Furthermore, let us consider the difference of their actions. It is easy to say that Sasuke was 'Evil' by going to Orochimaru's camp, but there is functionally no difference between the two's paths, from a perspective of end-result. Both have been away from the village for the entire time-skip, so neither has done anything useful to further Konoha's aims. One would argue that Sasuke sold his soul to Orochimaru. In the end, it was revealed that Sasuke never intented to keep his word and in fact reversed the roles by absorbing Orochimaru(he still retains the Faustian role). So, I wonder. . . how is it any different? From an ethical view there exists no difference. The irony is that Sasuke did Konoha a great favour by killing their nemesis.
Sasuke, embodies objectivism. Disregarding popular opinion and the requirements of altruism thrust upon him, Sasuke purues his goal with vigor. He was a case of what is known as Tabula Rasa and the painter was him. He uses his perceptions to feed his reason, which have guided him in his quest to get more powerful. The world was not set up to empower Sasuke, as it was Naruto, and so he had to use his own means to improve.
Fin-
I could not give a shit about Sasuke turning evil. That was a pretty obvious extension of his character. I dislike him for beating characters who if they hadn't died could have easily been developed to be more interesting than Sasuke is.
Originally posted by RE: BlaxicanPeople hate him because people expect of him to much like I did and the author fails to deliever consistancy of his own characters actions and decisions. Overall the author doesn't care about Sasuke enough to put him on a standard he written for Naruto and Shikamaru making Sasuke a victim of authors comtempt.
Where do you get this from? People don't hate him for that, people hate him because everyone in the Village loved him for no reason and he acted like an idiot and illogical person in the SR arc. Then in Part 2 everyone hated him because most of his victories are circumstantial and he has powers handed to him instead of actually working for them (something Naruto is beginning to get flack for).Sorry to break it to you, but, people hate Sasuke because he's a poorly written character, not because of some sort of literary cliche.
His actions shouldn't be hated to begin with, he was supposed to be the main foil to all that Naruto stands for, the author just can't make it believeable and well written because Kishimoto never intended Sasuke in this manga to begin with.
There you go, like you, Kishimoto is the ultimate Sasuke hater.
Originally posted by Kento
😕 I'm sure people don't really expect much from Sasuke. Except maybe to always win with a plot device like he does.....
He never needed a plot device against Naruto, New Team 7, Orochimaru, and Deidara. 313
Also, is it just me, or does killermover talk about Sasuke in 95% of his posts in this thread?
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He never needed a plot device against Naruto, New Team 7, Orochimaru, and Deidara. 313Also, is it just me, or does killermover talk about Sasuke in 95% of his posts in this thread?
I though with Orochimaru it was his sickness that functioned as the plot device that allowed Sasuke to win?
Indeed. Rather annoying actually.
Originally posted by KentoYou'd be surprised, people obviously expected him to lose to Naruto at the vote fight thus cementing his rival status as Naruto *****.
😕 I'm sure people don't really expect much from Sasuke. Except maybe to always win with a plot device like he does.....
Plus the fact people were naive enough to think he'd be more a badass against Gaara and win.
Sasuke has been a butt of a joke ever since he got pwned by Lee. Thats why people hate when he wins against folks, Sasuke's humilation fuels them.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I though with Orochimaru it was his sickness that functioned as the plot device that allowed Sasuke to win?Indeed. Rather annoying actually.
IMO, I don't count it as a *proper* Sasuke-win plot device, since Sasuke knew Orochimaru was weak and he exploited that.
Besides, Sasuke only won the fight once Orochimaru absorbed him into his dimension. From then on, it was Sharingan + Willpower.
Originally posted by killermover
You'd be surprised, people obviously expected him to lose to Naruto at the vote fight thus cementing his rival status as Naruto *****.Plus the fact people were naive enough to think he'd be more a badass against Gaara and win.
Sasuke has been a butt of a joke ever since he got pwned by Lee. Thats why people hate when he wins against folks, Sasuke's humilation fuels them.
No... people hate him when he wins against folks because his wins are usually bogus. Sasuke vs. Orochimaru= Sasuke winning because Orochimaru has no arms, was laying in bed, and was on the verge of death. Sasuke vs Deidera= Sasuke winning because he just happens to have an elemental affinity that neutralizes Deidera's, and can somehow summon big ass manda despite being "almost completely out of chakra". Sasuke vs. Itachi= Sasuke winning because Itachi was sick and dying the entire time, and wanted Sasuke to live anyway. Sasuke vs. Eight-Tails= Sasuke winning even though he died twice in that fight, only surviving because his team mates saved his ass several times, and even then Eight-Tails threw the fight. Sasuke vs. Kages at summit= Sasuke getting his ass kicked over and over, first by Raikage, than by Gaara, than the Mizukage, only surviving the first two by pulling a spontaneous power out of his ass that he's never ever trained or practiced with before, but can somehow use masterfully due to having "hatred", and he survives the third fight only because Madara interrupted it and whisked him away. His fight with Danzo is the only fight in the entire Shippuden series that he's legitimately won only through his own merits, and even then he used powers that were handed to him on a platter by his older brother.
That's why people hate Sasuke, because with him it's one plot device after another. I know that you what you want to say is that it's Kishi's fault because he portrayed him that way, but seriously. Do you realize how wierd it is to say that Kishi is in the wrong because he portrayed Sasuke in a certain way? It's his story. There is no way the characters are supposed to act. They should act the way Kishi wants them to in his story, his creation. It's completely wierd that you're saying things like "Sasuke is supposed to be this, but Kishi writes him like that because he hates him!", as if Kishi is writing an adaptation or something. There is no source material that Kishi is supposed to go by when writing the characters, so what are you talking about?
And for the record, I preferred Sasuke to Naruto and most of the other characters up until the SR arc.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix😛 All but against New Team 7 was plot device wins.
He never needed a plot device against Naruto, New Team 7, Orochimaru, and Deidara. 313Also, is it just me, or does killermover talk about Sasuke in 95% of his posts in this thread?
Yep.
Originally posted by killermoverThat's not expecting much...that's expecting nothing..
You'd be surprised, people obviously expected him to lose to Naruto at the vote fight thus cementing his rival status as Naruto *****.Plus the fact people were naive enough to think he'd be more a badass against Gaara and win.
Sasuke has been a butt of a joke ever since he got pwned by Lee. Thats why people hate when he wins against folks, Sasuke's humilation fuels them.
They did? Cause seriously I never paid attention if they did or not lol.
😕 Actually around his loss against Lee was about the time I was able to actually stand him..When he first appeared, and after the SR arc are the times I can't.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixEh, Oro had him dead to rights in that fight. He just needed a body, and of course sharingan won't allow that.
IMO, I don't count it as a *proper* Sasuke-win plot device, since Sasuke knew Orochimaru was weak and he exploited that.
Besides, Sasuke only won the fight once Orochimaru absorbed him into his dimension. From then on, it was Sharingan + Willpower.
Originally posted by Kento
😛 All but against New Team 7 was plot device wins.Yep.
Eh, Oro had him dead to rights in that fight. He just needed a body, and of course sharingan won't allow that.
He beat Naruto fairly, albeit with the CS2. 😛
Oro was sick yes, but he didn't fall sick in the middle of the fight. He was attacked by Sasuke while he was weak, and I don't think that's the usual Sasuke win plot-device. Besides, Sasuke must have also known that Orochimaru wouldn't kill him, and he indirectly exploited that as well.
As for Deidara, I honestly don't know what plot-device there was in the fight. 😐 Sasuke running out of chakra was just a statement by Deidara. Deidara doesn't have the Sharingan/Byakugan.
Sasuke having an element that lets him counter Deidara's jutsu wasn't something that was handed to him in the middle of the fight. He also had to figure it out and test it.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
IMO, I don't count it as a *proper* Sasuke-win plot device, since Sasuke knew Orochimaru was weak and he exploited that.
Besides, Sasuke only won the fight once Orochimaru absorbed him into his dimension. From then on, it was Sharingan + Willpower.
Oh I agree. I actually like it when ninja's abuse the shit out of things like the opponent being handicapped. Makes them out to be smart. But I was just voicing the endless amounts of complaints people had with him. And I don't see what was wrong with the Deidara either.
Originally posted by RE: BlaxicanHow is it any more bogus than how Naruto or other characters win, why is Sasuke singled out from your introspective as a poorly executed character who wins fights nonsensically? You do realize, Sasuke wins because he's the duertagonist and the main antagnist for the main character to defeat right?
No... people hate him when he wins against folks because his wins are usually bogus.
Sasuke vs. Orochimaru= Sasuke winning because Orochimaru has no arms, was laying in bed, and was on the verge of death.So Sasuke was supposed to risk his life against Oro when he was healthty and lessen his chances of escaping him from not only his prison but being another sacarfice to prolong his own life and killing Sasuke in the process taking his sharingan and all his other jutsu? Thats called being an ninja, an opportunist being smart.
Sasuke vs Deidera= Sasuke winning because he just happens to have an elemental affinity that neutralizes Deidera's, and can somehow summon big ass manda despite being "almost completely out of chakra".First of all that was one of Sasuke most successful fights in the entire manga and the only credible fight he's ever gotten without his enemy being handicapped or totally gimped and sick. His one true victory and showcase of why Sasuke was the rival of Naruto and actually stayed true to his hype. Second, Sasuke outwitted and out thought Deidara on his own brillance and tatical forethought meaning he made Deidara a fool without resorting to any hax sharingan jutsu and his own affinity for lighting. It was a brillainat fight and a testament to what I thought Kishimoto actually liking his own foil to the main protagonist. If he kept Sasuke at that level of intellegence and grace, he wouldn't be so hated.
Sasuke vs. Itachi= Sasuke winning because Itachi was sick and dying the entire time, and wanted Sasuke to live anyway.I agree that was bullshit but that was the authors incompetance that made this fight seem incredibily dull. It was basically genjutsu and Itachi holding back while Sasuke made nothing but Itachi's akatsuki cloak burn off. That and Kishimoto confirmed Itachi was still stronger than him after death via poke. At that rate, Kishimoto only cared about maintaining the image of his more popular uchiha than Sasuke's growth and development.
Sasuke vs. Eight-Tails= Sasuke winning even though he died twice in that fight, only surviving because his team mates saved his ass several times, and even then Eight-Tails threw the fight.Notice how Kishimoto threw in the last minute that Sasuke was weakened before the fight started to maintain some dignity that Sasuke actually was a more than capable than he was fighting despite he got his ass outclassed and outperformed by a new character that just so happened to be a perfect counter to Sasuke in every way. Meaning Kishimoto just wanted Sasuke fans to get a clue, he never liked Sasuke. And even had a new yet comic relief character beat him up to prove it.
Sasuke vs. Kages at summit= Sasuke getting his ass kicked over and over, first by Raikage, than by Gaara, than the Mizukage, only surviving the first two by pulling a spontaneous power out of his ass that he's never ever trained or practiced with before, but can somehow use masterfully due to having "hatred", and he survives the third fight only because Madara interrupted it and whisked him away.Your just justifying what I'm saying, Kishimot written Sasuke as so unstable and unruly, he got his ass kicked to show that Sasuke's changed drastically and needed protecting despite his level of strength. You think just because Sasuke is a genius, he'd use better intentions for his plans even if their focused on revenge. At this point, Kishimoto gave up on Sasuke, making him the resident buttmonkey of the series now because he's sick and tired of Sasuke being more popular than his own main character. Which is why, Sasuke after the Kage Summit never learned from his bouts with the kages and spent the entire Danzou fight spamming ms like he's incapable of using anything else as S clas ninja. Which is why Kishimoto indirectly called Sasuke a failure(through Danzou) because he spent his entire life chasing revenge and being cornered in return by his own failures.
His fight with Danzo is the only fight in the entire Shippuden series that he's legitimately won only through his own merits, and even then he used powers that were handed to him on a platter by his older brother.Naruto was handed Kyuubi and Sage Mode by his Grandfather. Both of them recieved gifts for their efforts to prove themselves to their predessesors. It's not like Sasuke had the abilty to learn his MS off the bat, he had to fight and litterally risk his life to learn and master to control his MS evne though instead of training his already existant abilites, Kishimoto turned him into a cookie cutter cardbord villain and made him a shell of his former self. Spaming a double edge sword and losing his sanity in the process.
[/quote]That's why people hate Sasuke, because with him it's one plot device after another. I know that you what you want to say is that it's Kishi's fault because he portrayed him that way, but seriously.[/quote]NO you hate Sasuke because of these reasons, theres a ton of other reaons people hate Sasuke's character and it's mainly due to the authors abilites to write his character to an extent of mediocrity.
Do you realize how wierd it is to say that Kishi is in the wrong because he portrayed Sasuke in a certain way? It's his story. There is no way the characters are supposed to act. They should act the way Kishi wants them to in his story, his creation.So your supporting bad characterization because the man is a total idiot author who can't write a decent storyline to save his life when it involves one of his most generic creations that he admited never planned in the begining. Since Sasuke is my favorite character or was my favorite, I'd say Kishimoto is a bastard for ruining a character that had the potential to be more than a generic archetype thats hated by almost everyone to the point of making it popular.
Or maybe Kishimoto isn't skilled enough to write two characters without using one to contrast everything the other isn't as a well written concept and making things up as he goes to see his main protagonist mean much more to the plot than ususal.
It's completely wierd that you're saying things like "Sasuke is supposed to be this, but Kishi writes him like that because he hates him!", as if Kishi is writing an adaptation or something. There is no source material that Kishi is supposed to go by when writing the characters, so what are you talking about?Are you kidding me, theres always source material, Kishimoto had plans for almost everyone of his characters except Hinata, Sakura, and lastly Sasuke. It's a more of a add in han a write in. Kishimoto writes Naruto off of Goku's character and adds depth and layers to his character to make his journey believeable and inspiring. It's safe to say, Kishimoto spends more time making Naruto a good concept than he does his other main characters. ANd the other main characters are ones who are usually his favorites, like Shikamaru, Tsunade, Gaara, and Jiraya.
And kishi hates Sasuke, he hates that people like him are always blessed and gifted and not normal or flawed. He said shikamaru was a more likeable character despite being a genius because he doesn't show off or make a big scene out of it. Kishimoto obviously puts his emotions he feels in real life into his characters and portrays them as he sees fit.
Which means Sasuke is the thing Kishimoto hates the most about people who have everything but the kitchen sink. And he uses Sasuke to serve as an ultimate stepping stone for the main character to surpass and show that his main character is the ideal person he wants to be not Sasuke.
And for the record, I preferred Sasuke to Naruto and most of the other characters up until the SR arc.Thats nice. But it still doesn't change that Kishimoto kept Sasuke as a plot device instead of a character. And that was always the case. Kishimoto jsut decieded to drag out this Sasuke business and expose what a unlikeable character Sasuke is to prolong Naruto's proper plot as the ultimate mary sue. 😂
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix😛 Can't beat somebody fairly when they are specifically trying to not kill you just talk you into coming back.
He beat Naruto fairly, albeit with the CS2. 😛Oro was sick yes, but he didn't fall sick in the middle of the fight. He was attacked by Sasuke while he was weak, and I don't think that's the usual Sasuke win plot-device. Besides, Sasuke must have also known that Orochimaru wouldn't kill him, and he indirectly exploited that as well.
As for Deidara, I honestly don't know what plot-device there was in the fight. 😐 Sasuke running out of chakra was just a statement by Deidara. Deidara doesn't have the Sharingan/Byakugan.
Sasuke having an element that lets him counter Deidara's jutsu wasn't something that was handed to him in the middle of the fight. He also had to figure it out and test it.
Eh, but he only won because Oro chose to not kill him when he could have. Kinda a plot device.
Raiton being able to null Doton attacks is just weird.....Kakashi being able to stab through Kakuzu just because he used Doton armor is just as bad as Sasuke nulling all of Deidara's attacks. Mainly cause Kakashi should've been able to cut through anyway no matter what jutsu was used, weak against or not.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Also, it just occurred to me.You know how it was revealed that the Uzumaki's are very long-lived, a seemingly useless piece of information?
That aspect of Naruto's clan was put in place to mitigate all the years he lost from doing shit that shortens his lifespan, like entering Kyuubi mode.
OOOORRR...
It's to show that Madara is actually dead and the Tobi that we THINK is Madara, is actually an Uzumaki. That would explain several things such as "Madara's" thirst for eyes (cause he got Madara's eyes), the wording from people like Kakshi being like this: "presumably Madara", and why he would still be around for so long. With him saying himself that his great chakra keeping him alive...that runs much too parallel to how the Uzumaki's were described for their longevity. That would also explain why "Madara" was shocked at whatever Kabitamru showed him.
I could have sworn I said that in this thread, already.