The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
T
Pretty much what Q said.

Also, Kakashi pours a lot more chakra into his version and so it requires more control. It might have quite a build-up, I think. Sasuke can use Chidori and its variants almost instantaneously.

I think Sasuke's Chidori, in of itself, has not changed from Pre-TS to Post-TS. All that has changed is that he has come up with a variety of uses for Chidori via Shape Manipulation, and that his limit for Chidori has been increased to an indefinite amount.

Kakashi's buildup time for raikiri has gone down. pre-TS he used to visibly focus for a few moments before it'd form, and now he doesn't really need a noticeable time I can see.

Ranks typically indicate the difficulty of the techniques, rather than their power. More often than not though, an S-rank technique is very powerful.

Meh, Morning Peacock is rather powerful, but it's in the same rank as a technique like Rasengan & Reverse Lotus, two techniques which I do not think are as powerful as Morning Peacock.

Good point.

Still, higher-rank jutsu *tend* towards stronger than lower-rank ones, even if there's some variation within the levels and in some cases a lower rank one can even have more power (Kakuzu's big blast techniques are only B-rank and have a ton of raw power, though no shaping or such).

Originally posted by Q99
Kakashi's buildup time for raikiri has gone down. pre-TS he used to visibly focus for a few moments before it'd form, and now he doesn't really need a noticeable time I can see.

So he can create Raikiri near-instantaneously? Sweet.
Also, one more thing. While the chakra amount obviously plays a huge deal in the penetrative force of Raikiri/Chidori, speed does as well. Sasuke is more than likely much faster than Kakashi. So his Chidori might be closer to Kakashi's Raikiri than we think.

Originally posted by Q99
Good point.

Still, higher-rank jutsu *tend* towards stronger than lower-rank ones, even if there's some variation within the levels and in some cases a lower rank one can even have more power (Kakuzu's big blast techniques are only B-rank and have a ton of raw power, though no shaping or such).

Yep.

The ranks primarily deal with the difficulty of execution, rather than power/damage output/usefulness and though jutsu in higher ranks tend to be more powerful than jutsu in lower ranks, it isn't always the case as you just pointed out with Kakuzu's jutsu.

Sasuke's Katon: Gouryuuka no Jutsu is powerful enough to punch through a ceiling that is probably a foot thick without losing any momentum, and it's hot enough to rapidly superheat the air. Yet it's still a B-Rank jutsu.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
[B]So he can create Raikiri near-instantaneously? Sweet.
Also, one more thing. While the chakra amount obviously plays a huge deal in the penetrative force of Raikiri/Chidori, speed does as well. Sasuke is more than likely much faster than Kakashi. So his Chidori might be closer to Kakashi's Raikiri than we think.

Mm, I'm not sure about that. Have we ever seen anyone get the better of Kakashi in speed? He doesn't have as many flat-out blitz examples, but he normally seems a little bit faster than even badasses he's fighting.

I'd think they're fairly close.

Originally posted by Q99
Mm, I'm not sure about that. Have we ever seen anyone get the better of Kakashi in speed? He doesn't have as many flat-out blitz examples, but he normally seems a little bit faster than even badasses he's fighting.

I'd think they're fairly close.

As far as feats go, Sasuke seems to be much faster. The only feat I can think of for Kakashi is him catching Madara/Tobi, but then again, Tobi likely wasn't even on guard. He's fast no doubt, but I don't quite think he's Sasuke level.

I'm guessing he doesn't get blitzed by the people he's fighting thanks to his Sharingan. To date, only Raikage has managed to get past the 3 Tomoe Sharingan with raw speed alone.

Thinking about it, I honestly don't see Sasuke being faster, though it hardly makes him slow. Going by "reaction speed", Kakashi is pretty much only one or two below if not thee fastest person in the anime. His entire career has been spent getting hit by attacks that comes out of nowhere, only for it to be a clone. He does it even more frequently than Naruto.

Sasuke, from my recent memory, actually has a habit of tanking attacks. I mean, if you compare Kakashi in the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu, where he was dodging both the attacks of Hidan, and Kakuzu, and the fire mask, and the lightning mask, and the wind mask who were all going hail marry him and he didn't get scratched. And then you look at how Sasuke essentially just stood there with a look on his face and tanked the attacks from Gaara, Temari, and the kumo ninja. Kakashi's succesfully dodged more often than Sasuke has. He also outran electricity, which is pretty uber.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
As far as feats go, Sasuke seems to be much faster. The only feat I can think of for Kakashi is him catching Madara/Tobi, but then again, Tobi likely wasn't even on guard. He's fast no doubt, but I don't quite think he's Sasuke level.

I'm guessing he doesn't get blitzed by the people he's fighting thanks to his Sharingan. To date, only Raikage has managed to get past the 3 Tomoe Sharingan with raw speed alone.

I'm thinking of how he handled Zabuza, appeared behind post-timeskip Naruto during the second bell test, and how back in the day he was fast enough to get 20 shadowclones in a single rush in Kakashi Gaiden.

Databook puts them both at 4.5 out of 5.

RE: Blaxican
He also outran electricity, which is pretty uber.

I'd call that outrunning a cloud of electricity personally, the mass wasn't moving at electricity's speed.

I think he did get hit once in the Kakuzu fight, but only when caught offguard by Kakuzu not being dead, and he did get the heart-stab in to begin with/

Originally posted by Q99
I'm thinking of how he handled Zabuza, appeared behind post-timeskip Naruto during the second bell test, and how back in the day he was fast enough to get 20 shadowclones in a single rush in Kakashi Gaiden.

Databook puts them both at 4.5 out of 5.

Sasuke caught the same Naruto (along with Sakura & probably Sai) completely off-guard even though they were basically staring right at him an instant ago. He also speed-blitzed a CS2 fodder dude, and Juugo with the CS2 transformation managed to somewhat block Raikage's punch (granted, I know Juugo is likely > fodder dude, but still, CS2 probably amps reaction speed).
If we look at limb-movement, there's Sasuke's shuriken frenzy with Itachi.

The 3rd Databook also puts Neji's speed at 4.5, and to my recollection, Neji isn't exactly as fast as Sasuke or Kakashi when it comes to movement speed. Lee's speed is 4.5 as well, and he's supposed to be much faster than Neji. The 2nd Databook had put both Neji's & Lee's speed stat at 4, while Kakashi was at 4.5. IMO, either the stats are just generic & tier-like, and/or it doesn't quite concern movement speed.

With the cursed seal active, Sasuke pulled off a quasi Raikage-like maneuver and outran Itachi's Field of Vision for a quite a bit.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Thinking about it, I honestly don't see Sasuke being faster, though it hardly makes him slow. Going by "reaction speed", Kakashi is pretty much only one or two below if not thee fastest person in the anime. His entire career has been spent getting hit by attacks that comes out of nowhere, only for it to be a clone. He does it even more frequently than Naruto.

Sasuke, from my recent memory, actually has a habit of tanking attacks. I mean, if you compare Kakashi in the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu, where he was dodging both the attacks of Hidan, and Kakuzu, and the fire mask, and the lightning mask, and the wind mask who were all going hail marry him and he didn't get scratched. And then you look at how Sasuke essentially just stood there with a look on his face and tanked the attacks from Gaara, Temari, and the kumo ninja. Kakashi's succesfully dodged more often than Sasuke has. He also outran electricity, which is pretty uber.

Kakashi will naturally have great reaction speed as he has the Sharingan.
Raikage & Minato (& perhaps Sage Mode/Kyuubi empowered Naruto) are the only people who I would argue are equal to/better than Kakashi/Sasuke/Itachi when it comes to reactions.
Meanwhile, Itachi reacted to Lightning, which according to Zetsu, took under a millisecond to reach Itachi. Better yet, Itachi likely pulled out Susano'o after the bolt started its descent.

As for Sasuke, once he got Susano'o, he's started to tank attacks more and dodge less. He's still got his fair share of dodging attacks though. Killer-bee's first Lariat being one of them, and Raikage's elbow being another. He's also managed to pull out Susano'o just as Raikage was about to land his Liger-bomb, though I don't know if that exactly qualifies as Reaction speed, and it certainly isn't a dodge >__>. Meh.
I think he dodged that point-blank C1 bomb of Deidara, along with a few C2 explosions as well.

I consider Sasuke & Kakashi to be relatively equal when it comes to reactions.
Kakashi's fast obviously, but I don't think he's nearly as fast as a competent base Sasuke or Lee for that matter.

K, so I was just looking over the Kage fight at a different site now that OM's out, and I saw the speech bubble on the right, and chuckled a bit. Certainly amps Raikage's badassery up a notch IMO.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20463%20-%20Sasuke%20vs%20Raikage/ch463_UK_Page_16-17.png

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Sasuke caught the same Naruto (along with Sakura & probably Sai) completely off-guard even though they were basically staring right at him an instant ago. He also speed-blitzed a CS2 fodder dude, and Juugo with the CS2 transformation managed to somewhat block Raikage's punch (granted, I know Juugo is likely > fodder dude, but still, CS2 probably amps reaction speed).
If we look at limb-movement, there's Sasuke's shuriken frenzy with Itachi.

The 3rd Databook also puts Neji's speed at 4.5, and to my recollection, Neji isn't exactly as fast as Sasuke or Kakashi when it comes to movement speed. Lee's speed is 4.5 as well, and he's supposed to be much faster than Neji. The 2nd Databook had put both Neji's & Lee's speed stat at 4, while Kakashi was at 4.5. IMO, either the stats are just generic & tier-like, and/or it doesn't quite concern movement speed.

We haven't really seen Neji have a chance to speed out. Though he was fast enough to handle a ton of Naruto's dopplegangers without being touched back in the day.

And I'd say there's a fair amount of room in each- there's only 10 levels for everyone, and HtH speed vs movement speed would be the same state, and so on.

Kakashi might be lower in it than Sasuke and Lee... but I think in his favor is also he's had no speed problems when facing Itachi or Sasuke.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
K, so I was just looking over the Kage fight at a different site now that OM's out, and I saw the speech bubble on the right, and chuckled a bit. Certainly amps Raikage's badassery up a notch IMO.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20463%20-%20Sasuke%20vs%20Raikage/ch463_UK_Page_16-17.png

Originally posted by King Kandy
I liked the other translation "don't take me lightly, boy!" (or something like that) better.

I get you.
The one I posted would have been better if it had been something like "I am the goddamn Raikage, boy." srug

Originally posted by Q99
We haven't really seen Neji have a chance to speed out. Though he was fast enough to handle a ton of Naruto's dopplegangers without being touched back in the day.

And I'd say there's a fair amount of room in each- there's only 10 levels for everyone, and HtH speed vs movement speed would be the same state, and so on.

Kakashi might be lower in it than Sasuke and Lee... but I think in his favor is also he's had no speed problems when facing Itachi or Sasuke.

That has more to do with Neji's combat speed (a department in which he's *very* fast), rather than movement speed, which would lead back to my understanding of the speed stat not being concerned with movement speed only.

He did have some trouble keeping up with Itachi in Part 1. In Part 2, he could keep up with Itachi, but that was Itachi with only 30% of his chakra. Granted, we don't know if Itachi's stats were affected by that, or whether only his ability to use jutsu & the MS were affected.
As for Sasuke, to be fair, Sasuke had just beaten Danzou, and his vision was incredibly shitty.
Though yeah, Kakashi's reactions are easily top-tier. He also pulls off a badass speed-feat in saving Sakura from Sasuke.

Kishi seriously nerfed Sasuke when he lost the Ten no Juin. Sasuke has versitility in his CS modes and his speed made his speed a high level ninja with serious blitzing attacks.

Now, Sasuke isn't even one of the fastest characters anymore because he lost the CS and the power to summon snakes which gave him a bushin technique that made him seem as skill as Kakashi and Itachi in deception speed.

Sasuke with the CS wouldn't have been blitzed by Bee, Danzou or Raikage if he still had that Kinjutsu and his chakra reserves would have been significantly high. Sasuke doesn't have beastly chakra like Naruto or the Cloud Bros do, he did have a high amount when he tapped into the CS. The only only reason he survived this far against people like the Kages and Danzou because he had Karin to replenish his chakra reserves and injuries.

Yup, it's all Kishi's fault, that bastard. He hates Sasuke so much, I hate Kishi for it. It's not fair how he hates fictional characters that he created in his mind. Imo, he shouldn't be allowed to do that.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

That has more to do with Neji's combat speed (a department in which he's *very* fast), rather than movement speed, which would lead back to my understanding of the speed stat not being concerned with movement speed only.

He did have some trouble keeping up with Itachi in Part 1. In Part 2, he could keep up with Itachi, but that was Itachi with only 30% of his chakra. Granted, we don't know if Itachi's stats were affected by that, or whether only his ability to use jutsu & the MS were affected.
As for Sasuke, to be fair, Sasuke had just beaten Danzou, and his vision was incredibly shitty.
Though yeah, Kakashi's reactions are easily top-tier. He also pulls off a badass speed-feat in saving Sakura from Sasuke.

So to wrap this up with what brought it up to begin with, if there is a speed difference that affects Chidori power, I don't think it's a significant one 🙂

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Yup, it's all Kishi's fault, that bastard. He hates Sasuke so much, I hate Kishi for it. It's not fair how he hates fictional characters that he created in his mind. Imo, he shouldn't be allowed to do that.

Man, that's so dumb. Why couldn't he just make Sasuke the best at everything and be done with it? That's what he deserves to be a good rival imo. Kishi's such a bad writer.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Man, that's so dumb. Why couldn't he just make Sasuke the best at everything and be done with it? That's what he deserves to be a good rival imo. Kishi's such a bad writer.

Yeah I'm with you, people would liek Sasuke way better if Kishi gave him his due credit and just made him the best at everything ever 'cause that's how he's supposed to be, unlike now where he loses all his battles and has no cool moves! It's so stupid how Kishi gives Naruto all the cool stuff why does he get special treatment that's so dumb!?

Originally posted by killermover
That sounds better than the Sasuke we got now, at least people wouldn't make fun of him and call him a failure, ironically Itachi was the cloest thing out of an Uchiha to being the best at everything.

Something just occurred to me.

Wasn't it said that in Sasuke's fight with Danzo, Danzo held back to use as little effort as possible to beat Sasuke so he could deal with Madara afterwards?

Oho.