Originally posted by Q99
So to wrap this up with what brought it up to begin with, if there is a speed difference that affects Chidori power, I don't think it's a significant one 🙂
True enough.
Originally posted by killermover
Kishi seriously nerfed Sasuke when he lost the Ten no Juin. Sasuke has versitility in his CS modes and his speed made his speed a high level ninja with serious blitzing attacks.Now, Sasuke isn't even one of the fastest characters anymore because he lost the CS and the power to summon snakes which gave him a bushin technique that made him seem as skill as Kakashi and Itachi in deception speed.
Sasuke with the CS wouldn't have been blitzed by Bee, Danzou or Raikage if he still had that Kinjutsu and his chakra reserves would have been significantly high. Sasuke doesn't have beastly chakra like Naruto or the Cloud Bros do, he did have a high amount when he tapped into the CS. The only only reason he survived this far against people like the Kages and Danzou because he had Karin to replenish his chakra reserves and injuries.
a) I doubt CS affects his base speed. CS did provide a good speed amp though, and IMO it sucks that he lost the CS, as it was pretty decent.
b) He's still one of the fastest characters in the manga. Raikage, Killerbee, Gai, Minato, Naruto (with Sage Mode/Kyuubi chakra mode) & perhaps Itachi are the only ones who are above him in terms of raw speed.
c) Karin never replenished Sasuke's chakra through-out the Danzou fight. She only did it once the fight was technically over. Even then, I highly doubt she completely restored his chakra with those brief bites.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Something just occurred to me.Wasn't it said that in Sasuke's fight with Danzo, Danzo held back to use as little effort as possible to beat Sasuke so he could deal with Madara afterwards?
Oho.
Danzo was holding back the Shisui eye for Madara, but that's about all.
Killermover
Kishi actually said he copied pasted famous fictional rivals and foils from other manga and put them all together to make Sasuke at the spur of the moment so he really didn't put any effort into Sasuke at all or a least tried to make him a different concept of the rival tradition.
That is a major exaggeration. Looking to other rivals at what made them and combining the elements he liked is a whole lot different than 'spur of the moment' or 'no effort.' Putting in research to determine what makes a rival is in fact the opposite of those things.
From what I can tell, the way it worked was editorial asked him to put a rival, he did research and spent some time, and came up with Sasuke to be a lynchpin in his new idea for the big story arc at that. Sasuke was designed before he made the main story after all.
Originally posted by Q99Kishi most likely didn't consider a rival for Naruto. If he did, he establish a ground up concept for him just like he did with Naruto and other characters he planned. Meaning he didn't have a idea on how to portray Sasuke after he studied rival foils 101.
Danzo was holding back the Shisui eye for Madara, but that's about all.That is a major exaggeration. Looking to other rivals at what made them and combining the elements he liked is a whole lot different than 'spur of the moment' or 'no effort.' Putting in research to determine what makes a rival is in fact the opposite of those things.
From what I can tell, the way it worked was editorial asked him to put a rival, he did research and spent some time, and came up with Sasuke to be a lynchpin in his new idea for the big story arc at that. Sasuke was designed before he made the main story after all.
Research my ass, he just winged the best rival archetypes from famous mangas and put them to use for Sasuke's entire character. He didn't study what a good rival should be, he just instinctively made Sasuke into the opposite of Naruto and had him be the plot device Naruto needs to be the best.
And Kishi admitted he had the story already set it was just the editor wanted the main character to have a rival so he could balance the dude.
Originally posted by killermover
Kishi most likely didn't consider a rival for Naruto. If he did, he establish a ground up concept for him just like he did with Naruto and other characters he planned. Meaning he didn't have a idea on how to portray Sasuke after he studied rival foils 101.
Kishi did by the time he actually got going- the design process of the main characters is completed before the first chapter hits the stands.
Plus it was several months before Sasuke actually showed up.
And Kishi admitted he had the story already set it was just the editor wanted the main character to have a rival so he could balance the dude.
Are you aware that it is normal for large manga Manga to go through several editor-mandiated revisions before it starts? One Piece had three. Kekkaishi had some major style changes and character alterations. It's normal.
That's not the same thing as 'last minute,' they go through it step by step and make sure everything's worked out before they start. Characters, art, backgrounds, etc.. They're in depth things.
Your 'last minute' theory is pretty darn silly if you consider how manga are made. Being one of the later main characters who was finalized doesn't mean less time was spent on him or that he was rushed out the door, it means a lot of time was spent on him but later.
Big-time manga simply doesn't work that way.
Originally posted by Q99from wiki
Kishi did by the time he actually got going- the design process of the main characters is completed before the first chapter hits the stands.Plus it was several months before Sasuke actually showed up.
When developing the original Naruto manga, Masashi Kishimoto had not initially intended to create Sasuke. After speaking with his editor about the future of the series, he was advised to create a rival character for the series' protagonist, Naruto Uzumaki, resulting in Sasuke's creation.[3] To learn more about creating an effective rivalry, Kishimoto read a variety of manga to gather ideas on what constituted such a rivalry, and he coalesced these ideal elements into one relationship. Because Sasuke is intended to be Naruto's opposite, Kishimoto is always careful to make sure Sasuke is never too emotional. With Sasuke's character being that of a "emo," Kishimoto feels he has created the ideal rivalry.[11] Sasuke's first name comes the manga Sasuke by Sanpei Shirato, a series which Kishimoto likes, as well as from Sarutobi Sasuke, a fictional ninja featured in Japanese children's stories.
Are you aware that it is normal for large manga Manga to go through several editor-mandiated revisions before it starts? One Piece had three. Kekkaishi had some major style changes and character alterations. It's normal.However, Kishi said Sasuke was never a part of the original manga manuscript, meaning he had the foundation of the manga we have now, but without Sasuke. Sasuke was just added for the sake of the editors intentions of expanding the already set in stone story.
That's not the same thing as 'last minute,' they go through it step by step and make sure everything's worked out before they start. Characters, art, backgrounds, etc.. They're in depth things.To bad Kishi admited Sasuke was the most difficult to draw and spent all the time trying to draw him more than Naruto and Sakura because the fact is Sasuke was new and fresh at the time and wanted to force himself to get used to his characters design since Kishimoto made Sasuke at the very last end of his manga's introduction.
Theres an interview that Sasuke was the last thing he worked on before he published Naruto but It might have been Sakura.
Your 'last minute' theory is pretty darn silly if you consider how manga are made. Being one of the later main characters who was finalized doesn't mean less time was spent on him or that he was rushed out the door, it means a lot of time was spent on him but later.Tons of mangaka's play around with characters that they just thought about in little time than big time characters. Sasuke unexpectedly is Kishi's " Ensemble Darkhorse, Draco In Leather Pants, and Ascended Extra.Big-time manga simply doesn't work that way.
Kishi said he never planned for Sasuke. What more do you need?
From a wiki gais:
"Despite the time and energy Kishimoto spends drawing Sasuke, Sasuke has become his favorite character to draw."
I can post random things too!
Who cares whether he planned for Sasuke to be in the manga or not? Point is, he's in there now, and is rather important in terms of the story. Maybe he isn't what you want him to be but here's the thing: Sasuke is his property. He is Kishi's ***** until the end of time and will be whatever he wants him to be. Stop complaining over something fictional. It really is weird. 😐
When developing the original Naruto manga, Masashi Kishimoto had not initially intended to create Sasuke. After speaking with his editor about the future of the series, he was advised to create a rival character for the series' protagonist, Naruto Uzumaki, resulting in Sasuke's creation.[3] To learn more about creating an effective rivalry, Kishimoto read a variety of manga to gather ideas on what constituted such a rivalry, and he coalesced these ideal elements into one relationship. Because Sasuke is intended to be Naruto's opposite, Kishimoto is always careful to make sure Sasuke is never too emotional. With Sasuke's character being that of a "emo," Kishimoto feels he has created the ideal rivalry.[11] Sasuke's first name comes the manga Sasuke by Sanpei Shirato, a series which Kishimoto likes, as well as from Sarutobi Sasuke, a fictional ninja featured in Japanese children's stories.
Yes, note the lack of 'last minute' in there, and how Kishimoto felt that Sasuke was 'ideal' for his purposes.
However, Kishi said Sasuke was never a part of the original manga manuscript, meaning he had the foundation of the manga we have now, but without Sasuke. Sasuke was just added for the sake of the editors intentions of expanding the already set in stone story.
No, her certainly did a major re-write. That's what a writer normally does in that situation, and are common to do before big manga (again OP had several).
The original manga manuscript did not have Naruto as host to the fox either, instead he was the fox himself.
To bad Kishi admited Sasuke was the most difficult to draw and spent all the time trying to draw him more than Naruto and Sakura because the fact is Sasuke was new and fresh at the time and wanted to force himself to get used to his characters design since Kishimoto made Sasuke at the very last end of his manga's introduction.
Well yea, he had already been drawing the other two for many months. This is not the same thing as ill-formed.
If the editors had not wanted modifications, then he'd be in the same position with both Naruto and Sakura that he was with Sasuke.
Sasuke coming later does not mean he was an afterthought. This was a major operation, the characters and story were all designed and finished before it got to the press, Sasuke included.
Heck, Orochimaru may not have existed at that point (it seems very likely he was made to fit to Sasuke's plot), and I'd hardly call him a last-minute afterthought.
Kishi said he never planned for Sasuke. What more do you need?
Kishimoto said Sasuke was not in his original plan; this does not means he did not write a new plan to include Sasuke and that he didn't plan ahead with Sasuke from the very start of this plan.
The original plan has been published and was way different in a lot of ways.
You're taking the words to mean things that aren't the case. Sasuke was in the plan for this Naruto's plot from the beginning, Naruto and a few other characters simply had the advantage of coming even sooner in prior version, but Naruto as we know it is the revision that had Sasuke in it. He was not tacked on to this plot, this plot was written with him in mind, the last revision was done after he was created.
The creation of a manga of this scale doesn't work how you seem to think it does. It's an involved process with a lot of prep work and no-one slaps on a main character at the last minute as an after though. A character coming last is not the same thing as a character coming without thought.
Originally posted by Q99"ideal" because of the editors that he listened to.
Yes, note the lack of 'last minute' in there, and how Kishimoto felt that Sasuke was 'ideal' for his purposes.
No, her certainly did a major re-write. That's what a writer normally does in that situation, and are common to do before big manga (again OP had several).Nothing was rewritten, Naruto had been planed and it was only after he heard the editors suggestion he changed the pacing and added Sasuke as the deurtagonist.
The original manga manuscript did not have Naruto as host to the fox either, instead he was the fox himself.[quote]That was a pilot and a prototype obviously, Kishimoto was testing the plot and character direction like he was testing the theme of the manga from wizards to ninjas. The original had the same concepts of the manga were reading now, except it had no Sasuke, Sakura, or Hinata(ninja wise).Do you have proof of this?[quote]Well yea, he had already been drawing the other two for many months. This is not the same thing as ill-formed.
If the editors had not wanted modifications, then he'd be in the same position with both Naruto and Sakura that he was with Sasuke.Both Naruto and Sakura's designs were stated as simple yet appealing by both Kishimoto and the editors. They were already in progress as Kishimoto made the manga. Sasuke however was the most difficult to portray and develop character and design wise because Kishimoto never had him in mind or understood how to put him in his story.
Sasuke coming later does not mean he was an afterthought. This was a major operation, the characters and story were all designed and finished before it got to the press, Sasuke included.Again can you prove this? Kishimoto stated that Sasuke was always the one he had to design carefully and masterfully, it indicates Sasuke existance is editor decided not Kishi decided. Sasuke was just a means to an end to get published, it doesn't mean Sasuke was every bit as planned as Naruto and Sakura were, it means Sasuke was made to get a long extending franchise running.
Heck, Orochimaru may not have existed at that point (it seems very likely he was made to fit to Sasuke's plot), and I'd hardly call him a last-minute afterthought.Oro was the main villain of course he was planned from the begining. Probably Itachi was planned before Sasuke because he was the first Uchiha have a basis on eye powers.
Kishimoto said Sasuke was not in his original plan; this does not means he did not write a new plan to include Sasuke and that he didn't plan ahead with Sasuke from the very start of this plan.Yeah, each interview, Kishi has implied Sasuke as a plot device or a simple opposite role play to Naruto as a character both plot and character wise. Kishi concerns about Sasuke is null and void, he just recently said he at the last minute thought up Sasuke's direction after he fought Itachi, meaning Sasuke's development is a whim of his to impliment certain plot twists to make the story interesting.The original plan has been published and was way different in a lot of ways.
Your the one thats looking far into it.
You're taking the words to mean things that aren't the case. Sasuke was in the plan for this Naruto's plot from the beginning, Naruto and a few other characters simply had the advantage of coming even sooner in prior version, but Naruto as we know it is the revision that had Sasuke in it. He was not tacked on to this plot, this plot was written with him in mind, the last revision was done after he was created.No no, Naruto's plot is about Naruto, Kishimoto only wants the main character to be emphasized not the other co star characters. This is canon, Kishimoto's plot was elaborated and compromised because the editors made him do so. He said he never planned for Sasuke and I believe him because the man as a mangaka wants to portray himself as a main character and elaborate success through the main characters eyes as he wants. Sasuke is just basis and a key role that helps Kishimoto to write Naruto more freely instead of cookie cutter like Luffy and Goku. Honestly if Sasuke wasn't included, nothing would change, the story would still focus on Naruto and his goals and dreams of being the greatest ninja and the strongest of all. Naruto would just be unbealivably dull and overpowered which Kishimoto doesn't want.
The plot is about Naruto being the greatest ninja, and making new friends and being everyones friend, and beating people that look down on him and eventually being the strongest of all. The bonds thing? Thats a Naruto concept Kishimoto has established through Naruto since chapter one and he's making sure to emphasize Naruto's goals and character through everyone that contrasts his nature(hatred, revenge, evil).
The creation of a manga of this scale doesn't work how you seem to think it does. It's an involved process with a lot of prep work and no-one slaps on a main character at the last minute as an after though. A character coming last is not the same thing as a character coming without thought.Tell that to Kubo Tite, who makes more retcons and last minute add in's than any manga artist to date. Honestly, Oda is the only one you describe as that focused on his own manga and series.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixGai suicides himself to kill Kisame. So Lee can grow from his masters death. To beat Zombie Kisame. Or something.
Man, I'm a Sasuke fan, and even I'm facepalming myself at this shit.Anyway, to steer the convo away, who do y'all think will win in the Kisame-Gai fight? Will Gai open all 8 gates?
Place your bets?
Nothing was rewritten, Naruto had been planed and it was only after he heard the editors suggestion he changed the pacing and added Sasuke as the deurtagonist.
Of course it was re-written, multiple character relationships included Sasuke as a key motivator and he was organic to the Zabuza saga as everyone else.
Here's a tidbit: Almost nothing professionally published you see has only had one version, pro writers do re-writes and edits all the time, sometimes quite major, either on parts or in full re-dos. If an editor requests a major change, a lot of work is done revising the story as a whole.
Do you have proof of this?
I have the issue of the Shounen Jump that prints the Naruto-as-reincarnation story, yes.
Even though it had the character of Naruto, it was very different.
Again can you prove this? Kishimoto stated that Sasuke was always the one he had to design carefully and masterfully, it indicates Sasuke existance is editor decided not Kishi decided. Sasuke was just a means to an end to get published, it doesn't mean Sasuke was every bit as planned as Naruto and Sakura were, it means Sasuke was made to get a long extending franchise running.
Please. Just because an editor said he should make a rival does not mean he was slapped together at the last minute as an afterthought, he's a professional mangaka. That goes very much against the evidence and other stuff Kishimoto has said, and Sasuke's creation was accompanied by a massive re-write of the overall story as compared to the previous versions.
And look at the early stories- say, the first 60 chapters. Does Sasuke stand out to you as fitting any less organically as anyone else? I don't think so, and I've never heard any other complaint along those lines. The complaints I hear from you are about stuff that happened literally hundreds of chapters and many many years later, obviously not having much to do with his creation.
No no, Naruto's plot is about Naruto, Kishimoto only wants the main character to be emphasized not the other co star characters. This is canon, Kishimoto's plot was elaborated and compromised because the editors made him do so. He said he never planned for Sasuke and I believe him because the man as a mangaka wants to portray himself as a main character and elaborate success through the main characters eyes as he wants.
You're arguing the wrong thing. By that logic, every character, Kakashi, Sakura, etc., to the very last, were all 'tacked on without planning'.
Sasuke was as planned out as any other non-Naruto character, probably a lot more so honestly.
I'm not saying Naruto was not the focus, of course he is. Sasuke was certainly designed as a reflection of Naruto and to boost Naruto's story- that is in fact part of the purpose of a rival to begin with. I am saying was Sasuke was planned out in advance and the story/plan written to include him from the bottom up and most of your argument is very silly in light of how the creation process actually works.
Oro was the main villain of course he was planned from the begining. Probably Itachi was planned before Sasuke because he was the first Uchiha have a basis on eye powers.
Oro the Sasuke obsessed villain was planned from the beginning?
Definitely not in anything resembling his current motives. You'd need a major re-write to explain that change.
Itachi was also certainly made after- keep in mind he didn't show up until several arcs in, he might not have been invented at all until into the chunin exam for all we know. All of his Naruto-related motives are only in how Naruto relates to Sasuke at that.
Also, Sarutobi was originally planned to be a talking animal, but that was dumped for being 'too weird.'
He said he never planned for Sasuke and I believe him because the man as a mangaka wants to portray himself as a main character and elaborate success through the main characters eyes as he wants.
No, he said Sasuke wasn't in his original plan. We've seen his original plan, it's quite different.
To take that as meaning he had no plans for him as-of the time the series started is just silly. The writing process does not work that way, and slapped-on characters do not end up so deeply intertwined with everything.
Kishi concerns about Sasuke is null and void, he just recently said he at the last minute thought up Sasuke's direction after he fought Itachi, meaning Sasuke's development is a whim of his to impliment certain plot twists to make the story interesting.Your the one thats looking far into it.
You think he never changed his mind on anything else? And I hardly think changing a character's direction 500 chapters in says much about their original groundwork.
Tell that to Kubo Tite, who makes more retcons and last minute add in's than any manga artist to date. Honestly, Oda is the only one you describe as that focused on his own manga and series.
Note, Tite's retcons and add-ons all came in way way down the road. The early stuff, though? The first year or two? That was planned out and holds together really well. It's only when he goes past the plan that trouble strikes. Oda, btw, has also altered stuff from his original plan, things ended up taking a lot longer than he expected to get to this point.
As a manga goes on things change, the writers are after all writing more stuff and original plans can change, but the beginning is normally very well prepped-out and often undergoes a few re-writes, and they definitely lay out a fair amount of story in advance.
You have a very odd way of viewing the writing process, but if you see a major character in the first 20 chapters of a manga that plays an integral role in the plot? You can count on that having been planned out before the first chapter hits the stands.