Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I just realized, killermover keeps stating Kishi is an idiot. And yet, not only does he believe Kishi has had every part of the Naruto story in his mind since day one, but he also talks as if Kishi created Sasuke's character in like an hour, fit him into the plot, and then shipped it out.
You know, if he did that, he would probably be the best improv mangaka on Earth.
Especially considering how he thinks all the Sasuke focused stuff in the plot somehow existed and the addition of the Sasuke happened to fit with all their pre-planned and written out motivations exactly.
NemeBro
In like one of the first chapters we are already given a bit of foreshadowing of Sasuke's plans and goals, particularly ones regarding Itachi, Kishimoto planned for him.
Quite. "There's someone... I want to kill."
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Jiraiya & Itachi were the last good guys to die, and they died over two years ago (in our time).
Though Kishi showed Minato and Kushina dying a few chapters ago, from the start of the series, we've somewhat known that they were dead.Agreed on Bleach.
I like that death exists, but is used sparringly in Naruto. It's normally done with strong emotional impact, and the characters are good enough that I don't want them to die.
I don't think Gai's going to die here because Lee's not around.
Originally posted by King KandyThe thing is...nobody really..important was killed. Kakashi could've still been brought back to life without that because he wasn't ever 'dead' yet. Well I guess Shizune but again...nobody important.
I'm 100% sure Kishi originally wanted both that everyone would stay dead, and that Naruto would be forced to kill Nagato, and that he changed his mind at the last minute.
Originally posted by Kento
The thing is...nobody really..important was killed. Kakashi could've still been brought back to life without that because he wasn't ever 'dead' yet. Well I guess Shizune but again...nobody important.
Originally posted by King KandyI was kinda agreeing with you. Sure a whole lot of people died but most of the village was still alive. Maybe, if more people besides Chouza, and Shizune had been killed but nobody else of note was shown dead, and I don't remember if Chouza was dead or not. While I may have liked Naruto's talk no jutsu changing Nagato and all that, his whole resurrection jutsu to kill himself seemed so out of place. Like Kishi couldn't find another way to get Nagato out of the way, and keep Naruto from killing anybody yet.
Well that's part of the whole reason why I think it was last minute. Because it wasn't like not doing to would dramatically alter his ideas for future stories.
On the flip side, if Naruto didn't think Kakashi or another main was dead, he wouldn't have so believably made an "I can't forgive you," speech when he came face to face with the real Nagato.
The deaths are necessary for his rage, but at the same time I doubt Kishimoto wanted to get rid of Kakashi for good, the whole 'Danzo as hokage' thing was already clearly being set up, and a live Kakashi is useful for that in his role as the next logical choice.
Originally posted by Q99
On the flip side, if Naruto didn't think Kakashi or another main was dead, he wouldn't have so believably made an "I can't forgive you," speech when he came face to face with the real Nagato.The deaths are necessary for his rage, but at the same time I doubt Kishimoto wanted to get rid of Kakashi for good, the whole 'Danzo as hokage' thing was already clearly being set up, and a live Kakashi is useful for that in his role as the next logical choice.
Yeah, that's what's stopping me from thinking bringing Kakashi back was last minute. If Tsunade was KO'd, who else in the village could logically become the next Hokage besides Danzo? Aside from Danzo, Kakashi's the smartest person in the village, and aside from Naruto he's the strongest.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If Itachi's included then wouldn't Pein also fit as a good guy?The only reason Kishi had Pein bring Konoha back was because he needed a way to bring Kakashi back without it looking like total bullshit. His fanbase would've been destroyed if he stayed dead.
Not likely. Itachi himself was somewhere between good & neutral. On one hand, he was loyal to Konoha, was kind towards and looking out for Sasuke, and disliked violence.
On the other hand, he must have been rather ruthless as an Akatsuki member, to fit in with his whole facade.
Originally posted by Q99
On the flip side, if Naruto didn't think Kakashi or another main was dead, he wouldn't have so believably made an "I can't forgive you," speech when he came face to face with the real Nagato.The deaths are necessary for his rage, but at the same time I doubt Kishimoto wanted to get rid of Kakashi for good, the whole 'Danzo as hokage' thing was already clearly being set up, and a live Kakashi is useful for that in his role as the next logical choice.
Wasn't his "I can't forgive you...I want to kill you so much I'm trembling..." speech made mainly because Jiraiya, the person he saw as his father, was killed by Nagato?
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Not likely. Itachi himself was somewhere between good & neutral. On one hand, he was loyal to Konoha, was kind towards and looking out for Sasuke, and disliked violence.
On the other hand, he must have been rather ruthless as an Akatsuki member, to fit in with his whole facade.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Plus, you know, personally killing his entire clan. Just because they were bad doesn't suddenly make that any less brutal.
But what does make it less brutal is this: the clan was planning on overthrowing the clan for selfish reasons. This would have caused another great ninja war and would have resulted in tons of innocent citizens and ninjas to be killed in the war.
Why? Because other nations would quickly act on the Fire Nation's weakness due to the military force having a mutiny. It would have taken weaks for the Uchiha to take over, completely. The leaders (including Danzo) saw this and realized, Ozymandias style, that this shit had to be snuffed out. The lives of the very few were greatly outnumbered by the lives of the great many. Konoha saw losing one of their strongest (if not the strongest) clans as a necessary sacrifice to save as many lives as possible.
However, why didn't they just plead with the Uchiha? They could have made an Uchiha Hokage..like..I dunno...Itachi? dur
That would have solved all of their problems and one of the strongest shinobi in all of Naruto would have reigned supreme in Konoha. Then, we could have Kakashi fill in for Itachi (cause I think Itachi would have gotten 2 more years out of his life before his fight with Sasuke...but he over taxed himself and cut his life short...like Sasuke ALMOST did in the same fight.)
Originally posted by King Kandy
Plus, you know, personally killing his entire clan. Just because they were bad doesn't suddenly make that any less brutal.
Agreed. It created his entire facade of being a ruthless person.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But what does make it less brutal is this: the clan was planning on overthrowing the clan for selfish reasons. This would have caused another great ninja war and would have resulted in tons of innocent citizens and ninjas to be killed in the war.Why? Because other nations would quickly act on the Fire Nation's weakness due to the military force having a mutiny. It would have taken weaks for the Uchiha to take over, completely. The leaders (including Danzo) saw this and realized, Ozymandias style, that this shit had to be snuffed out. The lives of the very few were greatly outnumbered by the lives of the great many. Konoha saw losing one of their strongest (if not the strongest) clans as a necessary sacrifice to save as many lives as possible.
However, why didn't they just plead with the Uchiha? They could have made an Uchiha Hokage..like..I dunno...Itachi? dur
That would have solved all of their problems and one of the strongest shinobi in all of Naruto would have reigned supreme in Konoha. Then, we could have Kakashi fill in for Itachi (cause I think Itachi would have gotten 2 more years out of his life before his fight with Sasuke...but he over taxed himself and cut his life short...like Sasuke ALMOST did in the same fight.)
The way I see it, both parties were (near) equally guilty.
You have one side, the Uchiha, who in the process of being discriminated against (unfairly), realized that they would have to undertake a coup d'etat in order to stop the discrimination and to gain the power they felt they deserved.
Of course, countless civilians, innocents and ninja would be lost in their battle for power. Not to mention, Konohagakure as a Village would likely cease to exist due to the civil war. Even if the Uchiha were the strongest clan around, they still would not be able to cope with attacks from other Villages, especially not if they had just won a civil war.
On the other hand, we have the Senju & the higher ups of Konoha, who decided to discriminate against and segregate the Uchiha. Though the seeds were already sown, the segregation was the Konoha equivalent to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, i.e the spark. Even though the higher-ups entered talks with the Uchiha, the 3 advisors likely all wished to wipe out the Uchiha clan.
You have to remember, this all started when the Senju decided to oppress the Uchiha. IMO, the Senju should never have done that.
They really should have let the Uchiha enter more political positions. Council Members or an Uchiha advisor to the Hokage. Or like you said, an Uchiha Hokage would have been a good start, provided said Uchiha was just and not a power-mad tyrant.
Hell, they could have also cycled between the various clans in deciding who to pick for Hokage (or at least the three most powerful clans in Konoha). Three of the 5 Hokages were from the Senju Clan. One was from the ever-awesome Sarutobi clan. An Uchiha Hokage would have eased tensions considerably.
In the event that there was no suitable choice from any of the three major clans (or in the Senju's case, their descendants), they could then start to look to the other clans or other ninja.
Meh, went off on a tangent there. Dunno if anyone will bother reading all of this anyway.
While that does make sense, keep in mind that Itachi was still quite young at that point (Minato and Kakashi were both considered young when being considered and they were several years older), plus he had no mangekyo until right before the end.
Also the clan was well on the way to rebellion at that point, so if given political control they might get out of hand, especially if Itachi was unable to maintain his facade of being a loyal son and sided with the Senju over their warlike ways. Perhaps if steps had been taken several years before, when things were not so near a boiling point.
It may simply be a matter that Itachi came too late to fill those shoes.
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It might or might not have caused a larger war, the Uchiha had a fearsome reputation, and coups within the major villages have happened before, clan rebellions too, so I could see the others waiting a bit before poking the tiger and seeing just how hurt it is.
Giving such political power to the Uchiha by the time Itachi was around would have been foolhardy.
Indeed, this should have all been addressed much earlier. Once the Uchiha were segregated to their small area, war was definitely on the horizon.
Konoha's higher ups got lucky in that someone as skilled as Itachi who was in a position of trust with the Uchiha, did not want war to break out.
- Depends on how the coup is handled. If it were dealt with quickly (i.e. Zabuza's coup), or the Uchiha quickly overthrew the Konoha government with minimal losses and effort, I think Konoha would be relatively safe from outsider attack.
However, since it was essentially Uchiha vs. rest of Konoha, I doubt the Uchiha would have won without major losses. If they did win, they'd have numerous casualities. They'd be left vulnerable, and the other villages could see this as an opportunity to wipe out the strongest clan/village currently in existence.
~ Unless of course, they decided to remove the Kyuubi from Naruto and control it like a pet to use against other villages. awesome