The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, just idle thinking, we've seen quite a few elemental kekkei genkai at this point (Storm, Acid, Wood, Lava, Dust, Ice), but we've yet to actually see them go head-to-head. I wonder how elemental priority would work with them. If it'd function in the predictable way (consider how the component elements interact, and the one with the most trumps win), or if it'd be more unpredictable.

Thinks being equal (in other words, both characters have a component that is stronger and one component that is weaker than the other) and assuming both KG are 'offense' types, the one that puts more chakra into their KG would win.

The Exception would be an uber hax KG that is just plain ol' useful (such as the sharingan.)

So, for instance, who would win: the bone bender or the wood bender?

The one that put more chakra into an attack (or the one that had more chakra), if all things are equal (same amount of training and mastery of their GK.)

Yea, but with two elements apiece (and purely talking elemental kekkei genkai here, not bone or any of the eye jutsu), being equal is a lot more rare.

What if one of the 'trumped' elements is also part of the trumping kekkei genkai? For example, Wood is Earth/Water, Ice is Water/Air. Earth normally trumps Water, but would it do so as much to one of it's components?

There's also different levels of pwnage here. Storm has one trump over Boil, but the other half is neutral. Lava trumps Ice in both respects, though.

The two obvious possibilities are either Lava be even more pwnage to Ice than normal elemental pwnage while Storm gets a normal trump over Boil, or Lava pwns Ice as much as a normal trump while Storm only half-trumps Boil and has less advantage than normal elemental advantage provides.

Then there's stuff like Storm vs Lava. Lightning trumps Earth and Water trumps Fire, but Earth also trumps Water, so you've got three advantages in total but they're mixed up.

The different combinations are in short, one trump, two trumps, or two trumps for one side and one trump for the other, aside from having one for each and thus neutrality.

So things are a bit more complicated than telling what's equal between the normal 5 elements. Especially considering they don't get matched against each other often, I'd wonder if even the users would always know the results.

I think it would probably work on a logical basis depending on the elements, rather than their components. Like, Ice naturally beats wood because plants die in cold. The new elements should be thought of as independent, not as a dual-use of regular elements.

Mokuton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>All others.

That is all you need to know. estahuh

I think Hashirama's mokuton might have been the most powerful in large part due to his own exceptionally strong chakra.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think it would probably work on a logical basis depending on the elements, rather than their components. Like, Ice naturally beats wood because plants die in cold. The new elements should be thought of as independent, not as a dual-use of regular elements.

Which'd make it quite hard to predict for even the users in some case, not all the interactions are obvious.

Though, we do know that Ice is not particularly vulnerable to Fire, which does fit the 'do count the individual elements at least somewhat' idea (as water trumps fire and fire trumps air, giving it a neutral stance).

Originally posted by NemeBro
Mokuton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>All others.

That is all you need to know. estahuh

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, just idle thinking, we've seen quite a few elemental kekkei genkai at this point (Storm, Acid, Wood, Lava, Dust, Ice), but we've yet to actually see them go head-to-head. I wonder how elemental priority would work with them. If it'd function in the predictable way (consider how the component elements interact, and the one with the most trumps win), or if it'd be more unpredictable.

I don't think the component elements would play any part in deciding the KG cycle of superiority. It would be neat if it worked that way, but then it gets too messy.
There are also certain 'elements' that are not known to be combined elements, eg. Blaze Release, Sand/Iron Sand & Bone.

I'm guessing there is no cycle of superiority. srug
If those elements do clash, I'd say it just depends on the nature of the attack, and how much chakra is put into it.
e.g. Ice spikes would penetrate a Wood Wall provided the spikes had sufficient speed & chakra.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I don't think the component elements would play any part in deciding the KG cycle of superiority. It would be neat if it worked that way, but then it gets too messy.

It may involve more factors, but I think it might fit. Figuring it out is the challenge, whether it's just counting advantages on the standard cycle or something else.

It would be fun if it was "kekkei genkai trump each other, but unless it's something obvious, even the users generally don't know how because combined element jutsu are freaking rare." It'd throw surprise into a high-level ninja fight.

There are also certain 'elements' that are not known to be combined elements, eg. Blaze Release, Sand/Iron Sand & Bone.

They suggest that you can also have variant-elements of a particular solo element (blaze-fire, sand-earth, the magnetism of iron sand possibly lightning) aside from the combined ones. Bone I wouldn't call elemental at all, it's more a body modification kekkei genkai.

In any case, this doesn't tell us a lot about the combined-element ones or kekkei genkai interactions.

I'm guessing there is no cycle of superiority.
If those elements do clash, I'd say it just depends on the nature of the attack, and how much chakra is put into it.
e.g. Ice spikes would penetrate a Wood Wall provided the spikes had sufficient speed & chakra.

Ninjutsu tends to work out in an advantage-disadvantage rock/paper/scissor way in general though, and they do still have connections with their original elements.

I'd expect Lava jutsu to pwn Ice jutsu of similar power no matter how you slice it (it both makes sense at a glance and has 2:1 advantage in terms of the element circle).

Originally posted by Q99
I'd expect Lava jutsu to pwn Ice jutsu of similar power no matter how you slice it (it both makes sense at a glance and has 2:1 advantage in terms of the element circle).

Did Sasuke's fire destroy the ice?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Eh, it's only powerful because it's the Senju that use it.

I imagine that wood makes a better chakra channel because its a conduit that is alive.

Originally posted by Q99
It may involve more factors, but I think it might fit. Figuring it out is the challenge, whether it's just counting advantages on the standard cycle or something else.

It would be fun if it was "kekkei genkai trump each other, but unless it's something obvious, even the users generally don't know how because combined element jutsu are freaking rare." It'd throw surprise into a high-level ninja fight.

Indeed, and that's the problem, we have barely a sliver of evidence to go about making a cycle of superiority for the special elements.
Then while most of these new elements are combined, they are entirely different elements with seemingly different properties. Though to be fair, Ice is just Water in a solid state, but it's probably different when Ice is chakra based.

At a glance, I'd say Wood is more similar to Earth than water, Ice is more similar to Water, while Lava is more similar to...in reality, Earth, but it could be Fire in Naruto-verse.

Maybe that could be how we determine the cycle of superiority. srug

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if combined elements do interact with each other the way the standard elements do.

Of note, Wind is supposed to be inferior to Fire, but when used in combination with Fire, makes it even stronger. I wonder if Lightning could make Wind stronger or something like that. Certainly would be cool and weird if Naruto's FRS was made stronger by something like Kirin.

Originally posted by Q99
They suggest that you can also have variant-elements of a particular solo element (blaze-fire, sand-earth, the magnetism of iron sand possibly lightning) aside from the combined ones. Bone I wouldn't call elemental at all, it's more a body modification kekkei genkai.

In any case, this doesn't tell us a lot about the combined-element ones or kekkei genkai interactions.

Yeah, you're right about Bone.

But it does tell us that the cycle of superiority in Kekkei Genkai Elements may not be as simple as it seems, or that it might not even exist. Those combined elements and unique elements are still Kekkai Genkais; at least in the case of Blaze. Sand seems to be unique to the Shukaku & its Jinchurikii, while Iron Sand seems to be something devised by the Third Kazekage.

I wouldn't exactly say Sand is tied to Earth only. Shukaku can use Wind techniques. It could be that Sand is a combination of Earth & Wind.

Originally posted by Q99
Ninjutsu tends to work out in an advantage-disadvantage rock/paper/scissor way in general though, and they do still have connections with their original elements.

I'd expect Lava jutsu to pwn Ice jutsu of similar power no matter how you slice it (it both makes sense at a glance and has 2:1 advantage in terms of the element circle).

They also have differences. Enough differences such that they are considered to be entirely different elements.

Spoilers:

Spoiler:
Kisame activates a water Jutsu and does a summoning (?). Feeling faint, he has a flashback to when he first met Itachi. After the flashback, the summoned shark eats Kisame, shocking everyone. Naruto realizes that Kisame killed himself so that he would not betray his comrades in Akatsuki. Gai states that he would never forget Kisame, as he admires Kisame's resolve in death.
As they open the scroll, a trap is activated and many sharks are created. They go out to sea, and one has a scroll.
Meanwhile, Madara has tracked down Konan. He asks her to tell him where she hid Nagato (Madara wants the Rinn'egan). Konan replies by saying that she'll kill Madara.

Is that really what happens? or just a prediction? I hope its real, cuz i like it.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if combined elements do interact with each other the way the standard elements do.

It's only a matter of time between two element kekkei genkai users fight... probably 🙂

Of note, Wind is supposed to be inferior to Fire, but when used in combination with Fire, makes it even stronger. I wonder if Lightning could make Wind stronger or something like that. Certainly would be cool and weird if Naruto's FRS was made stronger by something like Kirin.

I would think so- inferior elements do seem to boost superior ones. The specific interactions between superior/inferior might vary though.

But it does tell us that the cycle of superiority in Kekkei Genkai Elements may not be as simple as it seems, or that it might not even exist.

I'm thinking the duo-elements might have their own cycle of superiority, and the 'special variant' ones like blaze kinda stand off to the side or depend on what their base element is.

I wouldn't exactly say Sand is tied to Earth only. Shukaku can use Wind techniques. It could be that Sand is a combination of Earth & Wind.

True... I was thinking Dust might be Earth/wind. Two Earth/winds perhaps?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Spoilers:

Spoiler:
Kisame activates a water Jutsu and does a summoning (?). Feeling faint, he has a flashback to when he first met Itachi. After the flashback, the summoned shark eats Kisame, shocking everyone. Naruto realizes that Kisame killed himself so that he would not betray his comrades in Akatsuki. Gai states that he would never forget Kisame, as he admires Kisame's resolve in death.
As they open the scroll, a trap is activated and many sharks are created. They go out to sea, and one has a scroll.
Meanwhile, Madara has tracked down Konan. He asks her to tell him where she hid Nagato (Madara wants the Rinn'egan). Konan replies by saying that she'll kill Madara.

Spoiler:
Another villain killing himself then?

So it's out...And hm wonder if Gai will actually remember Kisame this time.

I doubt he'll ever forget.

Also, I look forward to the next chapter.

You know, this recent stuff about Kisame knowing Madara makes me wonder. Just how many of Akatsuki actually thought Pain was the leader? Because it seems like the majority actually knew the truth.

Also, this makes me lol. Everybody else gets made helpless by the water bubbles, but Killerbee just PUNCHES A SHARK IN THE FACE like nothings wrong. Moments like this are why he's one of my favorite characters.

http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/72932747/16

Konan is back? And she's actually going to fight Madara?

....I suddenly like her. Hope she does well...

Also:

Itachi:"We are humans, not fish."

So why is Kisame blue? And fish like?