Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I hate these new weapons. They irritate the **** outta me.
Yeah, Kishi sure is creative. 😆
If there is any justice in the world, Chiyo will give Kankuro what he has coming.
And yes, those weapons are very hax. At the same time, I hate them for being stupid. They need each other to work which is so stupid. The Banshosen fan is the only one I kinda like. If only cause it has nothing to do with ****ing about with the enemies soul.
Most story tellers in general will reference something old so I can forgive him for stealing from Journey to the West....which I still need to read. mmm
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Who? The SA or the Anbu? The Anbu showed basic knowledge of it when they saw Orochimaru vs Sarutobi. The SA will obviously know about it and inform the others about it.
If you check back one or two posts, my reply was a reply to a post about the anbu commenting on the technique. And, no, what I said applies:
"Where did they ever acknowledge the Talisman? I did not see that. I only saw that they had a basic understanding of the jutsu."
In other words, they cannot share information that they do not have.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So everyone in the manga is stupid because they won't do something that you think is possible but no one else seems to agree? Hmmm.
No, the WRITER is stupid because he wrote himself into a little loop hole with Edo Tensei.
And everyone trying to justify, baselessly, that the talisman "absorbs" into the body, is doing just that: making a baseless claim. You even provided evidence that the talisman IS NOT ABSORBED because Oro references it being in the head.
So, let me rephrase your statement from a less biased and false wording:
So everyone making baseless claims to justify a plot hole created by the writer is somehow right? Hmmm.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I understand your logic. But since every character seems to not even mention that as a possibility, I'll take what they saw over your opinion.
Step out of the fictional world, for just a second, and realize that I'm referring to a real life human writing a real life logical error into his fictional story.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Sarutobi has enough sense to recognize it would be in the head. That's if he didn't see where Orochimaru implanted them. Unless you're suggest the talisman moves around the body.
No, he doesn't. What I said.
"He lacked the ability to see where the tag was. There's also the problem of actually getting to that portion of their body."
The best he could pull off was severing the leg and landing some blows. Additionally, he had resolved to "kill" them, which automatically indicates he did not know about the technique beyond basic knowledge, similar to the Anbu. Sarutobi's knowledge >>>>>>> the onlooking Anbu's knowledge.
Also, the talisman moving around the body is a possibility and one that I would not be shocked that Kishi later introduces. It would redeem his plot hole writing as well as making things make sense, in universe...minus the fact that a skilled Hyuga should make short work of the talisman.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Or...it's not possible.
I was hoping that you would reply in a fashion like this. 😄
Yeah, that's not gonna fly as a legitimate reply to what I said. We actually do know that it is possible because we can see the consistency of the clay bodies. They're even less durable than real bodies. In other words, what I said.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Proof?
*In Carlos Mencia's "de de de" voice*
Because he still was controlled.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. The characters can obviously still live without the talismans
That was not being debated by anyone. What was in question is the removal of the talisman should relinquish the control of Kabuto.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
and clearly will still following the persons commands.
If by "persons" you mean "person's" and by "person's" you mean Kabuto's commands, yeah, I do not agree. If by "persons" you mean "individuals", then, yeah, I agree. If the talisman is removed, then they would still live and that individual would keep their will. They only way the jutsu would end is if the individual "willed" it, as we've seen.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So removing the tag, if at all possible, would be pointless.
Oh, I see where you were going with this.
Major fail on your part.
Remove the talisman, the jutsu creator no longer has control. Obviously, you missed the point of what the talisman is for, to begin with, so I can understand why you would conclude this.
Why did you think we were even discussing the talisman's removal?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. You need proof that it is possible.
Already provided by you, no less. Talisman is a physical object.
You need proof that it is absorbed by the body, which you haven't provided.
Additionally, and this is a huge "addition", there's still the problem of sealing or removing the talisman, just like a seal, IF it has the properties of a seal. It should be easily "seal-able" or null-able. This should further prove that the characters, in universe, are not aware of the talisman. Some might say, "But not everything can be sealed!" Lies. Even Saskuke's cursed seal was sealed...it just was broken by RAAAAAAAGE.
Originally posted by King Kandy
If there is no control without the talisman, then why would the bodies allow the talisman's to be placed in them?
I wondered that myself, but that's what the manga/Kishimoto has clearly outlined.
There could be a summon "cool down" period before the bodies are fully controllable by the spirits, which is actually the case, but has not been stated.
2. It is only a logical error in his story if there is evidence to say so. Currently there is not. The entire SA doesn't breathe a word about removing the talismans even though they clearly know of their existence. So I'm sorry, I do find it more logical to assume that it's not possible than to assume every character down to the mark is missing something simple.
3. The Anbu acknowledge the talisman when referencing their basic knowledge of the technique. So yes, they do know and by extension, so do the SA. They know the talisman exist, so why don't they think to go and get it? Either everyone who opposes Kabuto, including Madara, is not intelligent enough to figure that out....or it's not possible.
4. Can you prove that the talisman remained whole and with Shin? Bare in mind that Shin was blown up from the inside. If we assume that the talisman is in fact removable from the outside, it should have been launched a far distance away from Shin's body. Meaning he'd be out of Kabuto's control if we assume that the talisman is what offers complete control.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. So I suppose the 1st and 2nd are just assholes that decided to fight against the 3rd for shits and giggles huh?
Addressed already. No loops, please.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. It is only a logical error in his story if there is evidence to say so.
Wrong. It is a logical error (on your part, not mine) because there is a LACK of evidence to say so. I'm pointing out that lack that you are filling with baseless facts.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The entire SA doesn't breathe a word about removing the talismans even though they clearly know of their existence.
Incorrect. I've addressed this point already, as well.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So I'm sorry, I do find it more logical to assume that it's not possible than to assume every character down to the mark is missing something simple.
That's Incorrect conclusion based on incorrect information which is a logical error on your part.
Also, there is no need to apologize to me: I'm cool with what you're saying.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
3. The Anbu acknowledge the talisman when referencing their basic knowledge of the technique.
No they don't. 😬
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So yes, they do know and by extension, so do the SA.
Your false premise has lead to a false conclusion which is a logical failure on your part.
Despite this fact, I've also addressed your point as though your premise were correct: please don't take us in loops like that.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
They know the talisman exist,
No they don't.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
so why don't they think to go and get it?
This point has been addressed already for at least Sarutobi's situation. As for that others: I've pointed out clearly that this is PIS on Kishi's part. Again, please don't take us in loops.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Either everyone who opposes Kabuto, including Madara, is not intelligent enough to figure that out....or it's not possible.
OR you've made incorrect statements and made illogical conclusions based on those statements are ignoring the blindingly obvious reason of it being PIS on Kishimoto's part.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
4. Can you prove that the talisman remained whole and with Shin?
Can you prove that the Talisman dissolved into the body? (In fact, you proved the opposite because Oro references it being in the head. 😬 )
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Bare in mind that Shin was blown up from the inside.
With his shins on down, still intact, and he was blown to chunks: not vaporized, which is why this conversation started to begin with. Keep in mind that this originally started because I said that they could solve the problem of the control by simply completely vaporizing the clay bodies which would vaporize the talisman and return the body to the control of the spirit that dwells within: not Kabuto. There is still the issue of some of the peeps being evil, independently of Madara's and Kabuto's wishes.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If we assume that the talisman is in fact removable from the outside, it should have been launched a far distance away from Shin's body.
This incorrectly assumes that it wasn't and wasn't pulled back in with the large chunks.
This also completely forgets why this conversation was occurring, to begin with: PIS on Kishimoto's part. It is entirely (and most likely) possible that Kishi simply forgot all about it. It would not be the first time something like that has happened from Kishimoto.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Meaning he'd be out of Kabuto's control if we assume that the talisman is what offers complete control.
Incorrect. As soon as the body reforms; which also pulls the talisman back, which also assumes that Kishi remembered it for that moment, which also assumes that the talisman does not move around and wasn't in one of the feet, which also assumes that the talisman doesn't have to be completely surrounded by the clay body to be effective (whose to say that it doesn't remain effective just by touching some of the clay body?); the control is brought back, as well (boy, that's a lot of assumptions on your part, isn't it? I'm only assuming that the talisman was blown off and with some of the large chunks, like all of the other stuff, but assuming the talisman doesn't move about because Oro stated it was in the head (and we are now full circle)). Shin doesn't have any choices until the body is reformed enough to move.
You need proof that it is absorbed by the body, which you haven't provided.
We know it's possible. We know everyone's acting like it is.
We have a highly plausible scenario that fits all the facts, and we have another one that'd require people to be acting dumb.
Given that, I see no reason to not assume the first one unless indicated otherwise.
Originally posted by Q99
We know it's possible. We know everyone's acting like it is.
I agree that it's possible that Kishimoto forgot about what he wrote many years ago. 😄
Originally posted by Q99
We have a highly plausible scenario that fits all the facts, and we have another one that'd require people to be acting dumb.
I wouldn't say it's highly plausible: as fact, it's not true. Oro referred to the "talisman" in the head. So, we know it's there.
Originally posted by Q99
Given that, I see no reason to not assume the first one unless indicated otherwise.
Simple: the talisman was referred to as "in the head." That points, clearly to it being there but Kishimoto forgot about that when he had Shin blow up....that...or it stayed in one of the many chunks. That, it is movies about (contradicting the head comment by Oro.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree that it's possible that Kishimoto forgot about what he wrote many years ago. 😄
He seems to know exactly what he wrote.
You seem to be the only one who can't consider the possibility that it's not that simple and insisting that there *must* be a way to hit the right thing out to break control, when it is entirely consistent with both how that type of jutsu work and how the characters act that that isn't the case.
I wouldn't say it's highly plausible: as fact, it's not true. Oro referred to the "talisman" in the head. So, we know it's there.
So? It doesn't mean it's still in a vulnerable state. Maybe when he blew up there's little bits of kunai around while the chakra parts of the talisman are still in his little bits that reform. Maybe there's a whole kunai that reformed too.
Seal-type abilities change shape and even what they're written on sometimes. Their cloths reform when they're blown up. As long as the talisman is part of the jutsu, it's fine no matter what physically happens to it.
Originally posted by Q99
He seems to know exactly what he wrote.You seem to be the only one who can't consider the possibility that it's not that simple and insisting that there *must* be a way to hit the right thing out to break control, when it is entirely consistent with both how that type of jutsu work and how the characters act that that isn't the case.
He doesn't.
I would be the only one acknowledging facts and not injecting my own sense of "fictional rules" into the "fictional universe." I cannot and will not assume a baseless claim is somehow "fact" for the universe. What you and others have posed is simply a suggestion with contradictions. I am never "woo'ed" by argumentum ad populum, either. 😆
Originally posted by Q99
So? It doesn't mean it's still in a vulnerable state. Maybe when he blew up there's little bits of kunai around while the chakra parts of the talisman are still in his little bits that reform. Maybe there's a whole kunai that reformed too.
I agree, somewhat.
It also doesn't mean that it's in an invulnerable state.
And, you could be right on those next parts: we just don't know.
Originally posted by Q99
Seal-type abilities change shape and even what they're written on sometimes. Their cloths reform when they're blown up. As long as the talisman is part of the jutsu, it's fine no matter what physically happens to it.
That's not really going to work, for me. The "talisman" is actually a chakra receiver, as fact. It works, somehow, by interfacing with the will of the spirit. The Spirit gets to keep their memories but they lose the ability to control their body. This is delving into the world of Harry Potter magic where Harry Potter magic appears to have built in "sentience". Did Kishimoto realize that he was creating puppets in the resurrected clay bodies? I don't think so. Puppets without chakra strings. Hmm. So I guess the "will" of the talisman owner is somehow transmitted to and overwrites the will of the spirit in the clay. But, no, there's nothing to suggest that the Kunai becomes "one" with the clay: again, that's baseless.
I'll be proven wrong when one of the bodies is vaporized and the "will" of Kabuto remains after they reform.
If that's the case, then I will polish your knob and Angel's. 😄
Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong. It is a logical error (on your part, not mine) because there is a LACK of evidence to say so. I'm pointing out that lack that you are filling with baseless facts.
You're the one lacking evidence. Mine, circumstantial though it may be, is at least evidence. You haven't given me any reason to assume that it is possible.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's Incorrect conclusion based on incorrect information which is a logical error on your part.Also, there is no need to apologize to me: I'm cool with what you're saying.
You realize you can't call my conclusion incorrect without telling me why. Incorrect information? So assuming everyone in the SA forces is not an idiot is incorrect information.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No they don't. 😬
Yes they do. They clearly reference the talisman. Stop being dense.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Your false premise has lead to a false conclusion which is a logical failure on your part.Despite this fact, I've also addressed your point as though your premise were correct: please don't take us in loops like that.
What false premise? We know the Anbu know about the talismans and we know the SA forces have pooled their info about their opponents. There is no logical reason to assume otherwise. Not without denying what's clearly seen.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No they don't.This point has been addressed already for at least Sarutobi's situation. As for that others: I've pointed out clearly that this is PIS on Kishi's part. Again, please don't take us in loops.
OR you've made incorrect statements and made illogical conclusions based on those statements are ignoring the blindingly obvious reason of it being PIS on Kishimoto's part.
Give me an example to support that it's PIS and maybe you'll be on to something. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
Can you prove that the Talisman dissolved into the body? (In fact, you proved the opposite because Oro references it being in the head. 😬 )
Why yes, I can. When Shin blows up, he clearly reforms under Kabuto's control, with the same vitality as before. If removing the talisman is possible at all, it would have been removed then and there. If it for some odd reason decided to go back to the body after being removed, then it kinda supports the "it's not possible to kill them that way".
Originally posted by dadudemon
With his shins on down, still intact, and he was blown to chunks: not vaporized, which is why this conversation started to begin with. Keep in mind that this originally started because I said that they could solve the problem of the control by simply completely vaporizing the clay bodies which would vaporize the talisman and return the body to the control of the spirit that dwells within: not Kabuto. There is still the issue of some of the peeps being evil, independently of Madara's and Kabuto's wishes.
Kabuto says they are immortal. Not immortal unless vaporized. If what you say is true then it proves that no Hyuuga could take down an enemy since they have no showings of superpowerful vaporizing techniques. Even if it were possible to do so, I'll just say the smoke reforms into the talismans, since apparently they have a mind of their own.
Originally posted by dadudemon
This also completely forgets why this conversation was occurring, to begin with: PIS on Kishimoto's part. It is entirely (and most likely) possible that Kishi simply forgot all about it. It would not be the first time something like that has happened from Kishimoto.
Why would it be? baka
Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect. As soon as the body reforms; which also pulls the talisman back, which also assumes that Kishi remembered it for that moment, which also assumes that the talisman does not move around and wasn't in one of the feet, which also assumes that the talisman doesn't have to be completely surrounded by the clay body to be effective (whose to say that it doesn't remain effective just by touching some of the clay body?); the control is brought back, as well (boy, that's a lot of assumptions on your part, isn't it? I'm only assuming that the talisman was blown off and with some of the large chunks, like all of the other stuff, but assuming the talisman doesn't move about because Oro stated it was in the head (and we are now full circle)). Shin doesn't have any choices until the body is reformed enough to move.
We can assume all that or assume that it's not possible. Now which is easier?
Edit: OH! Assuming that the talisman does not get absorbed into the body, which you do, then answer me this: Why did Shin get revived with the same vitality as before? The talisman would have been burned up from the explosion. It is after all only paper.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He doesn't.I would be the only one acknowledging facts and not injecting my own sense of "fictional rules" into the "fictional universe." I cannot and will not assume a baseless claim is somehow "fact" for the universe. What you and others have posed is simply a suggestion with contradictions. I am never "woo'ed" by argumentum ad populum, either. 😆
No, it doesn't have contradictions, it follows the rules with which we have been presented. It has internal consistency.
You're trying to impose a contradiction on it externally by imposing a rule that we don't know exists (i.e. that the kunai and paper talisman are more vulnerable than the bodies).
That's not really going to work, for me. The "talisman" is actually a chakra receiver, as fact. It works, somehow, by interfacing with the will of the spirit. The Spirit gets to keep their memories but they lose the ability to control their body. This is delving into the world of Harry Potter magic where Harry Potter magic appears to have built in "sentience". Did Kishimoto realize that he was creating puppets in the resurrected clay bodies? I don't think so.
I do, because he's written it entirely according to the rules he's always applied by them.
If you're applying rules to them that were not indicated in the manga, you should consider these additional rules may be wrong.
Puppets without chakra strings. Hmm. So I guess the "will" of the talisman owner is somehow transmitted to and overwrites the will of the spirit in the clay. But, no, there's nothing to suggest that the Kunai becomes "one" with the clay: again, that's baseless.
It's not baseless. We've seen seal writing travel from kunai and stone to flesh before.
Also, when the kunai were inserted, there was clearly something odd going on. It was not a simple matter of placement, the body reacted to the talisman.
I'll be proven wrong when one of the bodies is vaporized and the "will" of Kabuto remains after they reform.
But it should also be noted, you won't be proven right until one is freed by such destruction.
As-of this point there is no 100% proven for either side, and it would not at all be inconsistent for you to be incorrect.
If that's the case, then I will polish your knob and Angel's. 😄
I have a knob?
I think I just found another loop-hole Kishimoto might have made. When Raikage talks about the Gold & Silver bros being trapped in the Kyuubi for two weeks, how is the fox wild exactly?
Since the Second Hokage was kind of the current Hokage during the alliance with the Cloud-nin, that would mean the fight with Madara would've been over; which means that the 9 tails would've been sealed up in Harishima's wife.
So how did the Gold and Silver Bro's get kyuubi chakra?
They probably the Fox's chakra quite awhile before the coup.
That is, they do that before the battle with Madara, then with the chakra serve Cloud famously for quite awhile using the treasures, then the First dies, Tobirama takes over, the meeting happens, they try a coup.
The First and Second's eras heavily overlapped, so if they were around for Tobirama they were certainly active during Hashirama's time too.