Originally posted by Q99
You get that Bug Gaara is an analogy right? I know you're thinking of them attacking in the normal bug way, but you're still acting like he's Bug Gaara!The speed you attribute him as having, the multi-vector attack, the quantity of attack, that's just how Gaara fights!
Though a Bug Shield strikes me as far messier and less effective even then, so on defense Bug Gaara is still in trouble ^^
I'm lost. I don't even know what you're talking about, anymore.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm lost. I don't even know what you're talking about, anymore.
The way you describe Shino's bug speed and multi-vector attacks, and the sheer quantity of attacks, is more in line with how Gaara moves his sand than how Shino commands his bugs to move.
Beetles still have to move with their legs and very limited wings. They're fairly slow, not at all like you've been describing.
Your version of Shino, aka Bug Gaara, wins easily. Actual Shino is at a disadvantage to either Sasuke or Temari, as his attacks are a fair bit slower and not nearly as all-encompassing, nor does he have a great defense against either of their jutsu of choice.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Q99 I see a distinct lack of Part One Shikamaru on your ranking list.
Oh, so he is. C-? C? I'm hesitant to rate him too high due to his low chakra, and he's lower
Hm, there should be two part 1 ratings. Chunin exam, and Retrieval Arc, because he gets the shadow strangle and somewhat more chakra in between.
Oh yea, another one that's missing! Just-graduated Lee, which we saw in flashbacks before he gained his signature look. D-?
Edit: And I'm not sure why the matter of Temari vs Shino is still being discussed. Temari wins.
We have one hold out.
Ok, here's a question for you on a closer fight- Tenten vs Shino. Quicker still and accurate range, but not Temari level and can only dodge bugs, not blast them.
Originally posted by Q99
Oh, so he is. C-? C? I'm hesitant to rate him too high due to his low chakra, and he's lowerHm, there should be two part 1 ratings. Chunin exam, and Retrieval Arc, because he gets the shadow strangle and somewhat more chakra in between.
Oh yea, another one that's missing! Just-graduated Lee, which we saw in flashbacks before he gained his signature look. D-?
We have one hold out.
Ok, here's a question for you on a closer fight- Tenten vs Shino. Quicker still and accurate range, but not Temari level and can only dodge bugs, not blast them.
C for Chunin Exam. He may be low on chakra but his intelligence makes up for it and his Shadow techniques are handy for obvious reasons. I think he can fit in with the C crowd. Bump him up to C+ when he lead the Squad to get Sasuke.
Well....I suppose D- works for him. He clearly was not skilled at all though. He probably couldn't even work out a decent transformation like Naruto. He might be lower.
Yeah....this one can be quite stubborn at times.
Well you have Tenten ranked lower than Shino though that is likely for other reasons. Depends on the area in my opinion. A more open area might make it easier for her while something like a forest area certainly works more in Shino's favor. The arena area is better suited to Tenten but she does lack the ability to take out so many bugs at once while Shino can make clones and such.
Shino might pull out a win due to his intellect but honestly would be a close fight.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well....I suppose D- works for him. He clearly was not skilled at all though. He probably couldn't even work out a decent transformation like Naruto. He might be lower.
Though he did pass and was taijutsu focused even then. Not crazy taijutsu focused, but I'm guessing better than Naruto.
I could see him as an E+ who got lucky.
Well you have Tenten ranked lower than Shino though that is likely for other reasons. Depends on the area in my opinion.
Shino is definitely more versatile, and has more tricky powers, but Tenten's got a more direct attack going for her.
In the wild he'd be much better off.
The arena area is better suited to Tenten but she does lack the ability to take out so many bugs at once while Shino can make clones and such.
Though I doubt he can do more than one clone and she's fast enough to throw and hit multiple Shinoi.
Originally posted by Q99
Though he did pass and was taijutsu focused even then. Not crazy taijutsu focused, but I'm guessing better than Naruto.I could see him as an E+ who got lucky.
Naruto has the advantage of being able to transform and stuff, giving him a better advatnage than Lee. So yeah, I'd put him in E+.
Originally posted by Q99
Shino is definitely more versatile, and has more tricky powers, but Tenten's got a more direct attack going for her.In the wild he'd be much better off.
Though I doubt he can do more than one clone and she's fast enough to throw and hit multiple Shinoi.
Well he could only need just one clone. It only takes a few bugs before you're finished. If the battle were in the arena, Shino would likely abuse Naruto's hole in the ground to get his bugs behind Tenten while staying hidden. He is smart enough to do something like that while Tenten is focused on him.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well he could only need just one clone. It only takes a few bugs before you're finished. If the battle were in the arena, Shino would likely abuse Naruto's hole in the ground to get his bugs behind Tenten while staying hidden. He is smart enough to do something like that while Tenten is focused on him.
Still, if you assume no hole in the ground (i.e. starting arena), or if she doesn't move to it's exit, I think she's pretty good.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Naruto has the advantage of being able to transform and stuff, giving him a better advatnage than Lee. So yeah, I'd put him in E+.
Just into one form, though. Copying others was something he wasn't so good at.
Originally posted by Q99
Still, if you assume no hole in the ground (i.e. starting arena), or if she doesn't move to it's exit, I think she's pretty good.Just into one form, though. Copying others was something he wasn't so good at.
Well the hole is merely one of the easier methods. Shino can get bugs behind her I'd just imagine it would take longer. Tenten just has a nasty habit of jumping when she does her attacks, which would not be good for Shino wanting to get her. Still, gotta land eventually. And Shino can play the dodging game for a minute or two.
He could transform into Sasuke later on without much problem. I don't think the Clone jutsu would have helped much there.
Originally posted by Q99
The way you describe Shino's bug speed and multi-vector attacks, and the sheer quantity of attacks, is more in line with how Gaara moves his sand than how Shino commands his bugs to move.
Bug speed was never said to be fast. You're lying about what I've said, again.
Multi-vector attacks: you bet your sweet poopshute that I was stating that.
Quantity of attacks? You call a dozen or so bugs from multi-vectors to be a lot?
Any more than 100 would be a ton of bugs, to me. Anymore than 1000 is tons and tons of bugs. He has tons of bugs for the most part, in each vector.
And, yeah, Shino's bugs go where he tells them to. It's not "sand-bending" though. 😬
Originally posted by Q99
Beetles still have to move with their legs and very limited wings. They're fairly slow, not at all like you've been describing.
Since I've never stated that the bugs move at any sort of fast speed, you're completely wrong.
Since you're wrong, how does that change your "words" on what I've stated? If the whol crux of your criticism is this non-existant speed I've been claiming...
Originally posted by Q99
Your version of Shino, aka Bug Gaara, wins easily. Actual Shino is at a disadvantage to either Sasuke or Temari, as his attacks are a fair bit slower and not nearly as all-encompassing, nor does he have a great defense against either of their jutsu of choice.
I never called him Bug Gaara. Those are your silly words.
And, we've been over the rest. Stop talking in circles.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Bug speed was never said to be fast. You're lying about what I've said, again.
Dude, stop saying I'm lying. Accusing someone of lying just because they're pointing out the flaws in your argument is bad debating.
You're saying she can't dodge them and that they're capable of getting into position for multi-vector attacks quickly. That requires speed. Listen to the consequences of your own statements.
To do what you say he does, the bugs either need high speed or teleportation. Pick one or drop your argument.
Multi-vector attacks: you bet your sweet poopshute that I was stating that.
Which requires set-up and traps (not ranged attacks he can just send out repeatedly in other words), teleportation, or high speed. He can't just send them out and have them attack from multiple angles, as the manga examples indicates.
Quantity of attacks? You call a dozen or so bugs from multi-vectors to be a lot?
... which doesn't work as an attack at all, you need more than that to take someone down, and that few is trivially easy to avoid. She leaps through them, gets maybe two on her, blasts Shino into the ground, and wins.
Or Temari just does a small defensive wind, then hits him with air blasts, perhaps more than one before more bugs can reach, and wins.
And her attack is faster. The fight starts with her blasting first. Your ascribing Shino first strike, undodgeable strike capabilites... well, it's Bug Gaara, not part 1 Shino.
Any more than 100 would be a ton of bugs, to me. Anymore than 1000 is tons and tons of bugs. He has tons of bugs for the most part, in each vector.
Each vector has to actually physically crawl there or be placed by Shino personally.
And, yeah, Shino's bugs go where he tells them to. It's not "sand-bending" though. 😬
Yea, you're saying he's 'bug-bending,' he just thinks and the bugs are there. Bug Gaara!
They need to travel there with bug-propulsion, which is not fast enough to do these multi-vector undodgeable attacks you're going on about. He tells them, they walk. They walked to the target in every part 1 fight (even the swarms around the clone's fist didn't actually fly over to the target, they only travelled where the clone travelled).
Which gives her time to blast one vector, jump away, blast him, etc. etc..
Since I've never stated that the bugs move at any sort of fast speed, you're completely wrong.
You've just said they'll do attacks that require fast speed.
Since you're wrong, how does that change your "words" on what I've stated? If the whol crux of your criticism is this non-existant speed I've been claiming...
Ok, so you admit he has slow attacks that she can dodge and blast, and that her attacks are faster and she can blast him before his bugs can reach her.
So, we're agreed she can win, then.
I never called him Bug Gaara. Those are your silly words.
You're just describing him as Bug Gaara in what he can do.
My words, but they fit just fine. You're ascribing Gaara like characteristics to his attacks which he doesn't have.
And, we've been over the rest. Stop talking in circles.
Stop repeating the same arguments based on attack that either don't work or he can't do. Repeating the arguments isn't going to suddenly work when it wasn't something he could do the last time.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, what I said....which was quite a lot.
You've said quite a lot, but none of it is a good reason she can't blast his bugs away then blast him.
Originally posted by Q99
Dude, stop saying I'm lying. Accusing someone of lying just because they're pointing out the flaws in your argument is bad debating.
It's quite simple:
If don't want me to keep calling you out when you lie: stop lying!
It's very simple. If you are going to lie about what I've said, I will call you on it. I called you on it and I said it was bad debating. You cannot turn around and say, when I call you out for lying about what I've stated, as bad debating. You essentially are replying with "no u."
Originally posted by Q99
You're saying she can't dodge them and that they're capable of getting into position for multi-vector attacks quickly. That requires speed. Listen to the consequences of your own statements.To do what you say he does, the bugs either need high speed or teleportation. Pick one or drop your argument.
Covered this already. Stop talking us in circles.
Originally posted by Q99
Which requires set-up and traps (not ranged attacks he can just send out repeatedly in other words), teleportation, or high speed. He can't just send them out and have them attack from multiple angles, as the manga examples indicates.
Covered this already. Stop talking us in circles.
Originally posted by Q99
... which doesn't work as an attack at all, you need more than that to take someone down, and that few is trivially easy to avoid. She leaps through them, gets maybe two on her, blasts Shino into the ground, and wins.Or Temari just does a small defensive wind, then hits him with air blasts, perhaps more than one before more bugs can reach, and wins.
And her attack is faster. The fight starts with her blasting first. Your ascribing Shino first strike, undodgeable strike capabilites... well, it's Bug Gaara, not part 1 Shino.
Each vector has to actually physically crawl there or be placed by Shino personally.
Yea, you're saying he's 'bug-bending,' he just thinks and the bugs are there. Bug Gaara!
They need to travel there with bug-propulsion, which is not fast enough to do these multi-vector undodgeable attacks you're going on about. He tells them, they walk. They walked to the target in every part 1 fight (even the swarms around the clone's fist didn't actually fly over to the target, they only travelled where the clone travelled).
Which gives her time to blast one vector, jump away, blast him, etc. etc..
You've just said they'll do attacks that require fast speed.
Ok, so you admit he has slow attacks that she can dodge and blast, and that her attacks are faster and she can blast him before his bugs can reach her.
So, we're agreed she can win, then.
You're just describing him as Bug Gaara in what he can do.
My words, but they fit just fine. You're ascribing Gaara like characteristics to his attacks which he doesn't have.
Stop repeating the same arguments based on attack that either don't work or he can't do. Repeating the arguments isn't going to suddenly work when it wasn't something he could do the last time.
You've said quite a lot, but none of it is a good reason she can't blast his bugs away then blast him.
Dude, everything you've brought up, covered already.
Stop being annoying.
Why do you do this? Why can you not handle the fact that someone disagrees with your opinion? Shino wins. Deal with it.
I've covered, quite thoroughly, why bugs which move relatively slow, still get the drop on someone that can "blow" them away: yet you ignored it. You are not interested in a discussion; you are interested in only Temari winning, regardless of other very good reasons why she wouldn't win.
It boils down to this: You do not think the laundry list of reasons why Shino can get bugs on Temari, will work. I think your linear spam and "speed of temari" don't cut it. We will never ever ever ever agree. You are simply wrong. (And, to you, I am simply wrong.) This will happen. I would, however, appreciate it if you would not lie about the things I've stated nor the positions I've taken. We WILL argue about stuff in the future because we love this stuff. Just keep that in mind. If I misrepresent something you say, LET ME KNOW and I'll appologize. What have you done? You pretended what you said was correct and belittled me like this was elemetry school. Bad form.