The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
Kakashi might be able to kamui it away, possibly Deva Pain's strongest gravity blast might do too. Killerbee and other high-tail hosts might be able to largely cancel it out with a blast of their own. And Itachi's Susano'o shield.

I considered all of those except for Itachi's shield.

I disagree that any of them could. Remember, a half-chakra filled, 6-tails cloak Naruto created a blast as large as if not larger than the full-powered 8-tails. The 9-tails is on a different scale than all of the other tailed beasts. The sillouhette of the 10-tails appears to be in the form mostly of the 9-tails, which would explain why the 9-tails appears so strong. So I don't think any of the tailed beasts or their hosts in full-cloak forms could stop it with enough force to prevent their own destruction.

I don't think Pain could repel it because naruto, none sage mode form, was able to anchor himself with 3-4 dozen shadow clones. Pain was like, "WTF?"

Maybe if he used his ultimate destruction blast? You could be right...but I don't think that's feasible to use against the blast since it would take so long to activate, which is why I disqualified it.

But, yeah, Itachi's shield, which is supposed to be the ultimate defense (as in, you can't commit a no-limits fallacy with it because it really can block anything) may be able to block it. However, as mentioned, that could be a no-limits fallacy, but the wording makes it to where you can't over-estimate it because it's like "magic."

So, yeah, there's another.

A healthy Itachi should be able to stand up to any single person with his mirror shield. There should not be a single person that could defeat him because of that.

Originally posted by Q99
Those're the ones I can think of.

Some could avoid it or survive it through various means. Like I think A could likely avoid getting hit.

I don't think speed alone is enough to avoid the blast. I disqualified all those that have uber speed due to Minato having it and using teleportation to address it, instead.

I think you understand my point: a person has to avoid or address the blast directly after it has been shot. Meaning, they cannot anticipate it until fired.

Since Minato could pretty much defeat any single ninja (except for Itachi), I don't see why he isn't SS. He literally is "broken".

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think Danzou would be able to avoid death from the two, for a while, but he doesn't have anyway to wrestle the Bijuu free, fight the Bijuu, AND fight Madara. He doesn't have anything strong enough to hurt or kill the Kyuubi.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Entrance Madara with Shisui's eye, then command him to dismiss the kyuubi.

The only problem: it shouldn't work on another, (not to mention, even more powerful) sharingan user.

Unless you have some evidence that it works on equal to or greater than sharingan users?

For example: 3 tomoe versus MS. 3 tomoe versus EMS. How does it fair.

Danzo and Madara seemed to think it would work. Obviously, he never got the chance to use it so we can't prove 100%, but, that's good enough for me.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Is there anyone that can take on a full-powered Kyuubi blast?

Most ninja in the manga.

😖hifty:

Originally posted by dadudemon

I disagree that any of them could. Remember, a half-chakra filled, 6-tails cloak Naruto created a blast as large as if not larger than the full-powered 8-tails. The 9-tails is on a different scale than all of the other tailed beasts. The sillouhette of the 10-tails appears to be in the form mostly of the 9-tails, which would explain why the 9-tails appears so strong. So I don't think any of the tailed beasts or their hosts in full-cloak forms could stop it with enough force to prevent their own destruction.

Well, a 9-tails host could, but that's flat-out cheating 🙂

Still, maybe 8-tails could crank it up.

Maybe if he used his ultimate destruction blast? You could be right...but I don't think that's feasible to use against the blast since it would take so long to activate, which is why I disqualified it.

The city blast doesn't take that long to activate. It just requires the others being out. To use against Konoha he had to get in position too, but I didn't get the impression the activation itself took very long.

A healthy Itachi should be able to stand up to any single person with his mirror shield. There should not be a single person that could defeat him because of that.

It should be possible to get attacks around/behind the shield, though the difficulty is definitely raised.

I don't think speed alone is enough to avoid the blast. I disqualified all those that have uber speed due to Minato having it and using teleportation to address it, instead.

Avoiding would've been bad, though. He was on the Hokage Monument, which has multiple buildings in and on top of that ridge, including the Konoha ninja library, and the backblast if it hit there would likely take out some of the town too.

He used the barrier because simply avoiding would've caused a lot of damage.

Here's the page.

Since Minato could pretty much defeat any single ninja (except for Itachi), I don't see why he isn't SS. He literally is "broken". [/B]

So? Broken is the requirement of S+. To be SS, you pretty much gotta be broken and city-destroying.

Minato's specialized for one-on-one conflict more than almost any other person in the S-class, but he's kinda low in most other areas like firepower. Some opponents seem like they'd be pretty hard for him, since his biggest attack options are rasengan and seals.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, a 9-tails host could, but that's flat-out cheating 🙂

Still, maybe 8-tails could crank it up.

Originally posted by Q99
The city blast doesn't take that long to activate. It just requires the others being out. To use against Konoha he had to get in position too, but I didn't get the impression the activation itself took very long.

I got the impression that since it was such an uberly powerful attack, it's not as fast activating it as, say, Kamui.

And, you're right: he'd have to get into position to activated it as it appears that it goes "down". So he'd have to fly up and activate it.

Originally posted by Q99
It should be possible to get attacks around/behind the shield, though the difficulty is definitely raised.

I don't think it's possible: it wouldn't be an ultimate defense if something could teleport behind it, you know?

Originally posted by Q99
Avoiding would've been bad, though. He was on the Hokage Monument, which has multiple buildings in and on top of that ridge, including the Konoha ninja library, and the backblast if it hit there would likely take out some of the town too.

He used the barrier because simply avoiding would've caused a lot of damage.

Here's the page.

The blast is what I'm talking about: the ball may be avoided but the detonation is much bigger. I don't see any sort of Naruto (manga, not character) speed working against such a large explosion. Teleportation or other means of nulling the attack are pretty much the only way.

The "speed" feats we see are short bursts of super speed but sustaining those over long distances is not going to happen: that's why they "fly" jump long distances instead of using that "blink" speed.

Originally posted by Q99
So? Broken is the requirement of S+. To be SS, you pretty much gotta be broken and city-destroying.

I see SS as a level that defeat two S+ class ranks, at the same time. I see one S+ beating to S- at the same time. If that tells you how I gage this stuff.

Originally posted by Q99
Minato's specialized for one-on-one conflict more than almost any other person in the S-class, but he's kinda low in most other areas like firepower. Some opponents seem like they'd be pretty hard for him, since his biggest attack options are rasengan and seals.

Since he killed so many ninjas that he could take out entire platoons, during the last great ninja war, his ability to inflict damage is up there with any other SS like Madara and Nagato.

Additionally, we don't know how far up the destruction chain he could have gone.

And, yes, precisely the reason he's SS is due to how broken his is. Ninja vs Ninja, he has a hard time losing. He has A's speed, Madara's Teleportation (but with some restrictions but also with more versatility with it), the Uzumaki hand seals, Kakashi's intelligence (or better), taijutsu just as good as any others, strength levels are unknown but any less than a "4" would seem odd, stamina that is among the best we've seen (the only other person to hold on to Gamabunta was Minato and Naruto had a demon that gave him near limitless stamina), and ninjutsu innovation that is just as good as any ninja we've seen. He's almost maxed out in every category in the databook. His rating, by what we know, should be a 39, which is the highest rating by far. Second is Hiruzen prime. Jiraiya, from what I could tell, is the highest rated databook ninja. Hiruzen was said to have tons of chakra in his youth so that would bump up his 34 to a 36. He was probably also stronger, physically, by at least 1 notch. That would bump up his total to 37. He was probably much faster bumping up his total to 38 or 39, depending on his prime speed.

Why all of that? I think Minato still had room to grow in his Ninjutsus while still being maxed out at a 5 in the category. He was not only a ninjutsu master, he was an innovator putting him above the likes of Oro in that area (despite not knowing as many as Oro.)

Because he can pretty much beat anyone single ninja, one on one, he deserves to be SS. He can beat multiple S+ class ninja, at once.

If there was a category for speed, A and Minato should be a 6. His teleportation should put him up there with Madara in "speed" as "irrelevant."

Originally posted by King Kandy
I think it is exactly that. Except not imagination, but they lack skill. Like Madara said, Izanagi is a tool, and its results vary from person to person. Obviously the sage had much greater ability to use it. I don't see any grounds to think two different techniques are going under the same name, especially when Madara had noted already that the results depend on the user.

Well, I see two different techniques being discussed. (Technically, 3, because you mentioned shisui's eye, indirectly.)

Basically, I've outlined that the Izanagi used by Danzo and Madara is not the same thing as what the Sage was using. In fact, they are apples to oranges. I've outlined why I think that, already.

On Shisui's eye: who's to say that the control will work on an equally powerful sharingan eye or better? I thought that the Sharingan eye offered protection against some of the sharingan's abilities? Itachi was the only person we know of to get around that limitation.

I see SS as a level that defeat two S+ class ranks, at the same time. I see one S+ beating to S- at the same time. If that tells you how I gage this stuff.

One S+ class was a close thing for him.

Two? That's pretty much a sure lose.

He's a level above the S-plain class ninja, but not two levels above.

He has A's speed,

But lacks A's strength and lightning armor.

Madara's Teleportation (but with some restrictions but also with more versatility with it),

But lacks his phasing and warp-others-to-pocket-dimension and genjutsu.

strength levels are unknown but any less than a "4" would seem odd,

He really hasn't shown much strength, and none of his attacks are strength based. 3.5 wouldn't surprise me in the least (That'd be Orochimaru and Itachi's level, other non-strength based S-class). With a one-handed rasengan he doesn't need a lot of strength.

stamina that is among the best we've seen (the only other person to hold on to Gamabunta was Minato and Naruto had a demon that gave him near limitless stamina),

What? I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Riding on Gamabunta is just a question of whether he lets you, not stamina, and most S-class can summon something that big.

His stamina/chakra wasn't particularly notable for an S-class from what we saw. Other than teleporting around and rasengan, he did two big jutsu, the space-time barrier and the death god summoning. Overall, he used a relatively moderate amount of chakra in the Madara and Kyuubi fights.

I doubt he's maxed out in that area.

and ninjutsu innovation that is just as good as any ninja we've seen.

His range of abilities shown is well below Kakashi or Hiruzen. He's got space-time, rasengan, and seals.

Impressive to be sure, but he's not a "thousand jutsu" type.

He's almost maxed out in every category in the databook. His rating, by what we know, should be a 39, which is the highest rating by far.

I'd contest that, but also note that we only have ratings for S-plain ninja with the exception of Itachi (who's S+ ness comes from the Mangekyo special hax abilities that don't show up in stats too well, and has his stat total lowered due to sickness).

Assumptions are fun.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, I see two different techniques being discussed. (Technically, 3, because you mentioned shisui's eye, indirectly.)

Basically, I've outlined that the Izanagi used by Danzo and Madara is not the same thing as what the Sage was using. In fact, they are apples to oranges. I've outlined why I think that, already.

On Shisui's eye: who's to say that the control will work on an equally powerful sharingan eye or better? I thought that the Sharingan eye offered protection against some of the sharingan's abilities? Itachi was the only person we know of to get around that limitation.

Who is to say? Well, Danzo seemed pretty sure it would work on Sasuke and Madara... He's not infallible but I am going by what he said because it seems plausible enough to me, and he a reasonable enough authority.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Prime Sarutobi didn't have the death god tech, remember? 🙂 The Yondaime taught him that.

And? Hiruzen needed the tech to put the two Hokages down, so that he could get to Orochimaru, all while being exhausted due to lack of chakra and hesistation in battle.
To be honest, if we were to include Edo Tensei, Kabuto would be by far the second most powerful ninja right now, even though he was using roughly 30 other powerful ninjas. But meh, same deal as Tailed Beasts I suppose.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Itachi is not another generation, though. He's only a few years older than Sasuke. He was 21 when he died. I'd say that he was between Sasuke's generation and Kakashi's generation (duh, right? lol). Those are the "two" definitive generations we see in Naruto. Each generation is usually "viewed" in the manga as the squad leader and the genin. The Second to Hiruzen, Hiruzen to Jiraiya, Jiraiya to Minato, Minato to Kakashi, and Kakashi to Naruto.

Yeah, but it's also between parents and children, and on a grander scale, between the Jounin/Chuunin and the next set of ninjas who will become Jounin/Chuunin.

In the context of Sasuke, Itachi seems to be his previous 'generation', since Sasuke has regularly been compared to Itachi and to a lesser extent, Madara. And another thing, no other Uchiha has been noted to have surpassed Madara.

He's long since surpassed Kakashi, but not Itachi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I dunno. That's debatable (obviously). We just don't know enough. As far as smarts, knowledge, and versatility, yeah, Sarutobi sounds to be much further ahead than both the first or second.

Smarts in battle? Likely.
Knowledge, depends. Tobirama knew Space-Time techs and created Edo Tensei.
Versatility? Prolly.

But yeah, Sarutobi > Hashirama & Tobirama, provided Hashirama isn't using Tailed Beasts.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree based on his last feat. If they were equals, then his father would have "ended" things quickly, as well. He didn't and it was in his best interest to do so. So, at best, his father is not nearly as strong as the full power version of his son.

Chouza himself can use that tech, and he was focused on fighting Dan. They were also fighting Asuma, and they were mainly focused on getting Chouji to cut loose.
I highly doubt Chouji ended things quickly by himself. He had a lot of help.

And I'll also point out that none of them have surpassed Asuma.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. I think he's already smarter than his father. Sakura said Shikimaru was the smartest in Konoha (but that was shipuuden, only.)

Also, by feats alone, he is stronger than his father.

Except Shikaku has regularly proven himself to be a better strategist than Shikamaru, via his numerous victories in Shougi, and the fact that he's the premier strategist in the Shinobi Alliance.

Yes, but his father has around one feat as far as I know (where he easily used a tech on three people that Shikamaru had difficulty using on one). We can hardly draw a comparison via feats.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We do know: he was around as strong as the Sannin, from one quote we saw.

All I can recall was Minato stating that he was as well known as the Sannin. I doubt he was as strong as any of the Sannin though. If he was, Kakashi has most definitely not surpassed him.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Since he wasn't taught the main-line's techs but figure some out, that already puts him in a league of his own. Even Hiashi was shocked that he figured that out.

The last databook shows there to be a 3 point difference between them, overall. The major difference is a 2 point difference in hand seals. Neji is actually .5 faster than Hiashi.

If they were to fight, it would be tough to determine who the winner would be. I give the nod to Neji only because of his apparent “genius.”

Any of the notable genii in the series are in a league of their own. Minato, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto & Neji have all been crazy strong for their ages.

Meh, I take those stats with a grain of salt. Neji hasn't demonstrated any sort of tremendous speed, yet he's supposedly in the same class as Kakashi in terms of speed? Gaara hasn't demonstrated any sort of tremendous intellect, yet he's above people like Sasuke?
This is the same databook that exaggerates details in the ninjutsu descriptions.

Neji's a genius as far as mastering techs goes, but he hasn't demonstrated any sort of extraordinary smarts in battle.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Same generation, dewd. 😄

Don't matter, Raikage is still > Bee. That includes the Third Raikage 😖hifty:

Originally posted by dadudemon
I would say that it is "most" cases and the torch isn't really passed until they surpass them.

The Yondaime, despite probably being less knowledgably than Hiruzen, probably could beat a prime Hiruzen just because of how potent his techs were.

Hard to say, seeing as we don't know Hiruzen's strength at his prime. He was however said to be the strongest of the Hokages, and also the strongest Kage during his reign. People like Onoki/Mu & Second Mizukage/Yagura were likely Kages when Hiruzen was at his Prime, so that's saying something, considering all of those 4 are S+ class easily.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree, in the context of Naruto. I believe it has to be both.

If you made the case to me that it refers to the older gen getting weaker as they age and the younger gen finally passing them, I may partially agree to that. But, still, in the context of Naruto, they are showing a clear "surpassing."

About the "legends" of the past: even Shikaku said that the legends of the past are exaggerated (in his pep talk to the "new" ino-shika-cho).

We're at an impasse then. I believe it has to be more of 'torch passing' than a strength difference.
Only certain ninjas show this. Said ninjas are likely genii, have hax techs at their disposal, and/or are main characters.
To an extent yes, they are exaggerated a bit, but it took incredible team work + hax item + planning to defeat a single foe.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, the tablet was mostly about techs, not his complete biography. It gave a very brief overview of his biography, imo.

It was a fair biography. It talked about the Juubi and how the Sage sealed him, how he ushered in Ninjutsu, how he was revered as a Saviour, and what his sons inherited from him. Everything that Madara knows about the Sage has come from the Tablet.

That's not to say that it could not be a legend though. I'll note that stuff has been added to the tablet (MS being able to control the Kyuubi, among other information), but the stuff written by the Sage himself is probably true, as only one other person has been known to have had the Rinnegan AND had access to the tablet.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's quite obviously PIS. Remove PIS of the Kyuubi sitting there growling and, instead, running at the body and we have a different outcome.

Nah, we have it getting surprised by the force of the gravity, attacking the rock mass with a Blast, struggling to get free, and then finally being captured. If it had the time or the ability to run at Deva, it would have.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Someone much more ruthless and to the point, like Kakashi, would have taken care of this "concentrating" Pain.

I doubt it if he could pull off that tech with just about any upper A class or S class ninja because of the concentration and time it takes.

Doesn't seem like much time to me.
And considering Deva had enough speed to keep his distance from the Kyuubi, I doubt Kakashi would be able to take care of Deva building up Chibaku Tensei.

Also, we both know that ninjas in Naruto tend to stand around and gape while their opponent builds up and uses their most powerful attack.

Originally posted by dadudemon
There's no way to prove that Izanagi worked, at all, beyond Madara's words.

Additionally, his form of Izanagi was a creation version, not a "save-my-own-life-with-illusion-substitutions" version. He would basically create life from chakra, is how it was explained. It was a form of Izanagi, not the one Danzo was using.

As an example of the difference, he couldn't save himself from death. He should have been able to create a new, young, perfect body and then transferred his soul to it...but he couldn't. Another example: he used chakra to create the 9 demons, which were "creatures."

Madara's really the only source of knowledge we have right now. Until we learn otherwise, or it gets retconned, that's really the way Izanagi works.

Or he didn't want eternal life, or he viewed it as something that was unethical. Or he did actually create a body, but did not know how to transfer his soul.

That said, yeah, the Sage might not have used Izanagi the way Danzou and Madara did. Madara does after all say that the Sage used it to create.
Doesn't mean it is a different tech though. Rasengan isn't a different tech simply because Naruto uses Shadow Clones to make it.

Originally posted by Q99
One S+ class was a close thing for him.

Two? That's pretty much a sure lose.

He's a level above the S-plain class ninja, but not two levels above.

Yeah. In all honesty, Minato's S+ class opponent has admitted that he is nowhere near as powerful as he once was. On the flip-side, he had a hax ability, which Minato managed to counter, so said hax ability was rendered moot.

Originally posted by Q99
But lacks A's strength and lightning armor.

Not to mention, A's speed while using the Raiton Armor. Madara seemed to nearly match Minato in speed.

Originally posted by Q99
But lacks his phasing and warp-others-to-pocket-dimension and genjutsu.

He pointed that out.

Originally posted by Q99
He really hasn't shown much strength, and none of his attacks are strength based. 3.5 wouldn't surprise me in the least (That'd be Orochimaru and Itachi's level, other non-strength based S-class). With a one-handed rasengan he doesn't need a lot of strength.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Q99
His stamina/chakra wasn't particularly notable for an S-class from what we saw. Other than teleporting around and rasengan, he did two big jutsu, the space-time barrier and the death god summoning. Overall, he used a relatively moderate amount of chakra in the Madara and Kyuubi fights.

I doubt he's maxed out in that area.

Agreed again.

Originally posted by Q99
His range of abilities shown is well below Kakashi or Hiruzen. He's got space-time, rasengan, and seals.

Impressive to be sure, but he's not a "thousand jutsu" type.

Versatility only counts for so much. Said characters have incredible versatility, but are saddled with relatively low amounts of chakra.

Minato is specialized, but his Space-Time techs make him pretty broken. Hirashin allows him to wipe out a regiment extremely easily, provided Kunais are in place.

That said, creating Hirashin and Rasengan, two of the best techs in the series, puts Minato at a very high level. Kakashi has incredible versatility, but has created only one technique, which had a drawback, and would have been less than useful had it not been for Obito's demise and kindness.

I wonder what Minato's Elemental Nature was. Wind?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix

Versatility only counts for so much. Said characters have incredible versatility, but are saddled with relatively low amounts of chakra.

Minato is specialized, but his Space-Time techs make him pretty broken. Hirashin allows him to wipe out a regiment extremely easily, provided Kunais are in place.

Oh yes, that's why I put him at S+. His specialties are awesome enough that even with a relative lack in some areas he can still kill almost anything.

Heck, that's no doubt why he was trying to invent elemental release rasengan, to fill that gap.

Hm, Minato with Rasenshuriken, *that* would break into the SS leagues!

I wonder what Minato's Elemental Nature was. Wind?

Hard to say. Naruto's chakra is supposed to be more like Kushina's.

Could be wind, could be lightning, could even be fire. I can't picture him with water or earth though.

Holy shit, that's a lot of stuff to respond to. lol

I'll do so tomorrow night, provided that I do not get a magical homework assignment.

Spoiler:
So I got the subterfuge I wanted. Perfect time to do it to. Way to go Sakura for helping the whole army. Quit being in love with Sasuke though silly.

Also,

Spoiler:
Maybe we'll get to see Tsunade show off more powers. Raikage will probably get some as well.

Also also,

Spoiler:
Lo and fanfiction between Bee and Tsunade tripled three sizes this day.

FVCK YEAH SAKURA DID SOMETHING!

Still pining for Douchesuke though. 🙁

Edit: I don't blame Bee one bit.

Originally posted by Q99

Hm, Minato with Rasenshuriken, *that* would break into the SS leagues!

Hard to say. Naruto's chakra is supposed to be more like Kushina's.

Could be wind, could be lightning, could even be fire. I can't picture him with water or earth though. [/B]

Yeah, he'd be close to SS level at the least if he could use Rasenshuriken. However, Minato's Rasenshuriken would be akin to Naruto's original Rasenshuriken, and we know that it has a potentially severe drawback.

Sasuke's chakra has been compared to Madara's, but Madara hasn't really displayed any sort of affinity to Lightning. I'm guessing they are talking about the 'character' of the chakra, and not the affinity, when they compare chakras.

Wind is more of his 'type' though, as it suits his combat style. Lightning as a second element would also be suited to him.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Spoiler:
So I got the subterfuge I wanted. Perfect time to do it to. Way to go Sakura for helping the whole army. Quit being in love with Sasuke though silly.

Also,

Spoiler:
Maybe we'll get to see Tsunade show off more powers. Raikage will probably get some as well.

Also also,

Spoiler:
Lo and fanfiction between Bee and Tsunade tripled three sizes this day.

Spoiler:
She's Sakura. She is supposed to be silly when it comes to Love. That said, Sasuke looked badass awesome

Spoiler:
Proves that Tsunade is hawter than Sexy No Jutsuawesome

Spoiler:
Itachi has just become an even more broken genjutsu user. Dude's range with genjutsu is greater than that of the range of a Sensor's chakra detection ability, and it's implied he can control quite a few people at the same time from said range.

"He must be a real great guy if you're in love with him."

Hahahahahahaha random love letter guy is the shit.