The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
cry

You two sure know how to make a guy feel loved.

*hugs*

Didn't I tell you not to get used to it?

Ah screw it, you did come up with the explanation, while I made it better vin

Originally posted by Q99
Most so-called 'contradictions' in Naruto really stem from people either assuming characters have knowledge they don't, or people assuming abilities can do stuff that haven't been shown yet 🙂

Even knowing about the draining and such, I assumed the ones like the one who drained Neji was dead. Faking their deaths was clever.

This was an impressive move on their part.

Agreed.

This also puts Madara's forces at a higher number than the 50,000, and makes his own forces extremely deadly, provided Shikaku does not come up with a plan, or Naruto does not enter the camp in his Kyuubi chakra transformation.

I'll also note that if the SA does win this War, they would owe their victory mainly to Sakura.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Didn't I tell you not to get used to it?

Agreed.

This also puts Madara's forces at a higher number than the 50,000, and makes his own forces extremely deadly, provided Shikaku does not come up with a plan, or Naruto does not enter the camp in his Kyuubi chakra transformation.

I'll also note that if the SA does win this War, they would owe their victory mainly to Sakura.

I can't help it, I just feel so accepted. cry

Speaking of Shikaku, nice to see the inside of his mind at work.

Hell yeah Sakura. =D

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, yea, come to think of it, did they ever *learn* how Kisame faked his death? We did, but they buried the body when it still looked like Kisame, and Kisame merely said his fake "was a unique type of clone," not that it was Zetsu. For all they knew, it was a Kisame special ability.

I may have been overestimating how much they knew of the technique. Zetsu never showed it at the Kage summit, and Kisame's survival was never linked to Zetsu.

So we got new info to *us*- how exactly the Zetsu are going to get the chakra for transformations to sneak in, the critical piece- as well as the characters not having as much information as we did.

*Edit* Ninja'd by Demonic Phoenix 🙂

I agree. That's what I was missing. That was the big piece: the "reader" knew that but the Ninja's did not.

See, I told you that I was missing something. 😉 I thought it was just crappy writing/CIS.

Originally posted by Q99
One S+ class was a close thing for him.

Two? That's pretty much a sure lose.

He's a level above the S-plain class ninja, but not two levels above.

I disagree (obviously). I also saw that version of Madara as pretty much unbeatable by even Nagato.

There is no reason, at all, that the first hokage beat him. We have no idea why. Based on what we know, the first should not have been able to beat Madara so severely. Is it possible that Mads did not have the teleportation tech when he fought the first Hokage?

Originally posted by Q99
But lacks A's strength and lightning armor.

There difference: Minato would kick A's "A", severely. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
But lacks his phasing and warp-others-to-pocket-dimension and genjutsu.

While useful, it was useless against Minato. 🙂 That's really my point: what "counts" is what went down.

Originally posted by Q99
He really hasn't shown much strength, and none of his attacks are strength based. 3.5 wouldn't surprise me in the least (That'd be Orochimaru and Itachi's level, other non-strength based S-class). With a one-handed rasengan he doesn't need a lot of strength.

It would be very absurd to put him as any less than 4 since he's supposedly this uber Hokage. Additionally, was it not Jiraiya who said Mainto was the most gifted Shinobi that ever lived? It's hard to say that a ninja like that is "middle of the road" for a Jonin in strength?

Lastly, my point on his strength is more about his taijutsu being top-notch and almost unbeatable. That, alone, should make him a minimum of 4 as his speed (without porting) is comparable to armor-wearing Raikage.

Originally posted by Q99
What? I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Riding on Gamabunta is just a question of whether he lets you, not stamina, and most S-class can summon something that big.

In order to "win" Gamabunta, you had to hold on from sun-up to sundown. It was supposed to be impossible unless you had tons of stamina. Other than Naruto, only one person was able to do it: Minato. That puts his stamina up there with just about anyone else in the series.

Originally posted by Q99
His stamina/chakra wasn't particularly notable for an S-class from what we saw. Other than teleporting around and rasengan, he did two big jutsu, the space-time barrier and the death god summoning. Overall, he used a relatively moderate amount of chakra in the Madara and Kyuubi fights.

But, see, I feel you just made a case for why his chakra is so large. Not only can he summon Gamabunta, he also can ride on it all day (he had to). He can also teleport the kyuubi, a full-powered deat-ball, and do all of that other crap he had to before he died.

In fact, in his final fight, he did so much crap that I cannot think of one single ninja that could accomplish all of that on chakra, alone.

Maybe a Kisame after absorbing all of 8-tails chakra.

Originally posted by Q99
I doubt he's maxed out in that area.

It's very hard to make a case that he's not, at a minimum, a 5 in stamina.

If you only count his Gamabunta "hold on" feat, he's at the very least, a 4 in stamina. Since he's obviously shown that stamina feat up, by far, it's really hard to make a case for anything less than 5. Other than ninjutsu and speed, his stamina is easily one of his strongest traits.

Originally posted by Q99
His range of abilities shown is well below Kakashi or Hiruzen. He's got space-time, rasengan, and seals.

Impressive to be sure, but he's not a "thousand jutsu" type.

Memorizing jutsus is not the requirement to be high in ninjutus, however. Since he invented a tech that uses the highest form of shape manipulation, his ninjutsu cannot be any lower than a 4.

Add in everything else, including what appears to be instant analysis of high-level ninjutusu he has never seen (Kakashi's ninjutsu score is a 5 but he doesn't even come close to the innovation levels of Minato).

Those are just two of many reasons he cannot be any less than a 5 in the ninjutsu area.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd contest that, but also note that we only have ratings for S-plain ninja with the exception of Itachi (who's S+ ness comes from the Mangekyo special hax abilities that don't show up in stats too well, and has his stat total lowered due to sickness).

If Itachi wasn't so sick, his speed and stamina would both jump up to 4, I belief. The Uchiha generally have lots of chakra compared to others. They were the only clan that could compete with the walking energy plants known as the Senju.

His taijutsu is a 4.5...

That's puts him, giving him 4s in the other two areas, at a 37.5.

That's still not as close to my estimate for Minato.

Originally posted by King Kandy
And I see no reason to believe they are not the same thing... to me, it is just a matter of skill. Just like countless ninja can use chakra, but only a few can use s-class jutsu. Greater feats require greater training and knowledge.

Who is to say? Well, Danzo seemed pretty sure it would work on Sasuke and Madara... He's not infallible but I am going by what he said because it seems plausible enough to me, and he a reasonable enough authority.

I would say that Danzo is definitely "fallible". He proved in multiple areas to be wrong. Not just in his life-philosphy but in his abilities, in his strategy, and other character's motivations.

That said, what I said prior would be what I reply to your post, with. I disagree that it's just a matter of skill: it's two completely different techniques. I don't see them as being different levels of each other, at all.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
And? Hiruzen needed the tech to put the two Hokages down, so that he could get to Orochimaru, all while being exhausted due to lack of chakra and hesistation in battle.
To be honest, if we were to include Edo Tensei, Kabuto would be by far the second most powerful ninja right now, even though he was using roughly 30 other powerful ninjas. But meh, same deal as Tailed Beasts I suppose.

The point is: Prime Sarutobi is lacking one of the major tools he used to win against Oro.

We don't know how much an increase in stamina, speed, and strength would have to offer as it is super duper "unknown."

And to the second part: I'd agree that with prep, Kabuto could very well be the most powerful in any 1 on 1 fight (it technically would not be a 1v1 fight, however.)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, but it's also between parents and children, and on a grander scale, between the Jounin/Chuunin and the next set of ninjas who will become Jounin/Chuunin.

In the context of Sasuke, Itachi seems to be his previous 'generation', since Sasuke has regularly been compared to Itachi and to a lesser extent, Madara. And another thing, no other Uchiha has been noted to have surpassed Madara.

He's long since surpassed Kakashi, but not Itachi.

I disagree that Itachi is seen as Sasuke's "previous" gen. As you pointed out, they are about the "same" generation: Parents to children.

Also, I disagree: at this point, Sasuke has suprassed Itachi in most ways. He needs the mirror shield....

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Smarts in battle? Likely.
Knowledge, depends. Tobirama knew Space-Time techs and created Edo Tensei.
Versatility? Prolly.

But yeah, Sarutobi > Hashirama & Tobirama, provided Hashirama isn't using Tailed Beasts.

We agree 100%. It's not so bad, right? 😄

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Chouza himself can use that tech, and he was focused on fighting Dan. They were also fighting Asuma, and they were mainly focused on getting Chouji to cut loose.
I highly doubt Chouji ended things quickly by himself. He had a lot of help.

And I'll also point out that none of them have surpassed Asuma.

If Chouza let loose, he could have ended it all, quickly. This is why I don't believe Chouza is on the same level as Chouji. Wait, I already said that...

It's also possible that his father already exhausted himself and Chouji was his backup.

I cannot rule out that possibility.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Except Shikaku has regularly proven himself to be a better strategist than Shikamaru, via his numerous victories in Shougi, and the fact that he's the premier strategist in the Shinobi Alliance.

Winning in Shougi, like that, only proves he has more experience.

He is the lead strategist because he's a Jounin AND the Jounin commander. It would be very out of place to place a chounin at the lead in addition to Shikimaru already working very well with his team (they proved that).

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yes, but his father has around one feat as far as I know (where he easily used a tech on three people that Shikamaru had difficulty using on one). We can hardly draw a comparison via feats.

And as a boy, Shikamaru captured like 10 chounin. 🙂

By feats, he wins, right? 😄

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
All I can recall was Minato stating that he was as well known as the Sannin. I doubt he was as strong as any of the Sannin though. If he was, Kakashi has most definitely not surpassed him.

I was wrong on the quote: he was supposedly stronger than the Sannin. 😐

Additionally, I think Kakashi could defeat Tsunade. Probably not healthy Oro or Jiraiya, though.

His father would be around the same age as the Sannin, however. So you're probably right that Kakashi did not suprass his father, yet.

However, he probably has surpassed his father in multiple areas such as ninjutsu and speed (due to his eyeball.)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Any of the notable genii in the series are in a league of their own. Minato, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto & Neji have all been crazy strong for their ages.

Meh, I take those stats with a grain of salt. Neji hasn't demonstrated any sort of tremendous speed, yet he's supposedly in the same class as Kakashi in terms of speed? Gaara hasn't demonstrated any sort of tremendous intellect, yet he's above people like Sasuke?
This is the same databook that exaggerates details in the ninjutsu descriptions.

Neji's a genius as far as mastering techs goes, but he hasn't demonstrated any sort of extraordinary smarts in battle.

I take the stats as fairly official and legit. They don't reveal that some characters are much better in a 1v1 fight, however.

Also, Gaara is apparently a "philosopher" and an intellect. He corrected the kage at the kage summit with some sharp words. He is also a good strategist. His intelligence rating is earned. It's only a 4, so it's not like he's being given a super intelligent raiting like Kakashi or Shika.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Don't matter, Raikage is still > Bee. That includes the Third Raikage 😖hifty:

shocked

How dare you.

I still think B is greater than A. Just because A was able to hit B, doesn't mean he can defeat him.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hard to say, seeing as we don't know Hiruzen's strength at his prime. He was however said to be the strongest of the Hokages, and also the strongest Kage during his reign. People like Onoki/Mu & Second Mizukage/Yagura were likely Kages when Hiruzen was at his Prime, so that's saying something, considering all of those 4 are S+ class easily.

Yeah, I talked about that earlier. It's just an unknown how strong he really was.

I don't know about the "strongest of the hokages" statement as I never heard or read that. He was certainly stronger than the first and second. The forth? Probably not: the forth probably could have beaten Prime Sarutobi.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
We're at an impasse then. I believe it has to be more of 'torch passing' than a strength difference.
Only certain ninjas show this. Said ninjas are likely genii, have hax techs at their disposal, and/or are main characters.
To an extent yes, they are exaggerated a bit, but it took incredible team work + hax item + planning to defeat a single foe.

Asuma is a Sarutobi, though. Even that shell version of him is still really really strong. 🙂

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It was a fair biography. It talked about the Juubi and how the Sage sealed him, how he ushered in Ninjutsu, how he was revered as a Saviour, and what his sons inherited from him. Everything that Madara knows about the Sage has come from the Tablet.

That's not to say that it could not be a legend though. I'll note that stuff has been added to the tablet (MS being able to control the Kyuubi, among other information), but the stuff written by the Sage himself is probably true, as only one other person has been known to have had the Rinnegan AND had access to the tablet.

The biography was still not extremely detailed, which was my point. It was very brief.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, we have it getting surprised by the force of the gravity, attacking the rock mass with a Blast, struggling to get free, and then finally being captured. If it had the time or the ability to run at Deva, it would have.

I notice that you mention everything that happened AFTER the tech activated. 🙂 My point was never what happens after the tech is started, but what should have happened WHILE the tech is starting.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Doesn't seem like much time to me.
And considering Deva had enough speed to keep his distance from the Kyuubi, I doubt Kakashi would be able to take care of Deva building up Chibaku Tensei.

Also, we both know that ninjas in Naruto tend to stand around and gape while their opponent builds up and uses their most powerful attack.

This, I agree with. They do stand around, allowing techs to be activated.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Madara's really the only source of knowledge we have right now. Until we learn otherwise, or it gets retconned, that's really the way Izanagi works.

I disagree: we don't have to accept anything at all from a character that was proven to be a liar and is consistently cautioned by others to be wary of his lies.

Additionally, it's still just a legend. There are some who still think he wasn't real. How can we be sure that the tablet had "real" writing from the Sage beyond just the word of a liar?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Or he didn't want eternal life, or he viewed it as something that was unethical. Or he did actually create a body, but did not know how to transfer his soul.

I thought of this, too. So instead of saving the planet from the juubi, he "cut it up" and created bodies for it: forever dooming the earth to have to deal with it.

Yeah, he really saved the earth from the juubi, right?

Which is more unethical: creating a body to live in to stay alive forever until he could find a perfect host or person to pass the juubi onto

OR

Releasing 9 potent forms of the juubi on the earth that would obviously create conflict and fighting for ages.

Think of how many died at the hands of those beasts and then reconcile that with the notion that a personal belief in "ethics on immortality". Which one seems like the greater atrocity? It seems, more and more, like the Sage is part truth, part false legend.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That said, yeah, the Sage might not have used Izanagi the way Danzou and Madara did. Madara does after all say that the Sage used it to create.
Doesn't mean it is a different tech though. Rasengan isn't a different tech simply because Naruto uses Shadow Clones to make it.

I agree that it's possible that it's the same tech: they are just not the same tech, at all.

There's no way to prove that they are besides people saying they are.

But, what it boils down to: "This Apple iPad is the same thing as this box of Kleenex! I swear to jeebus, main!"

Originally posted by dadudemon

There difference: Minato would kick A's "A", severely.

I think A'd have an excellent chance against Minato from what we've seen. He's fast enough to keep up with his speed, and his armor is strong enough to handle Rasengan.

Between much stronger defense, and being one of the few people who can react to him, Minato'd have trouble on his hands.

It would be very absurd to put him as any less than 4 since he's supposedly this uber Hokage. Additionally, was it not Jiraiya who said Mainto was the most gifted Shinobi that ever lived? It's hard to say that a ninja like that is "middle of the road" for a Jonin in strength?

Gifted =/= physically strong. Gifted also doesn't mean uber in everything.

Being an uber hokage can just refer to the areas where he is uber, like time-space jutsu, one of the most rare and difficult areas of jutsu there is yet he could use it in a casual fashion.

One other thing to keep in mind he was still young; Minato was still learning and getting stronger. His gifts hadn't even reached their peak when he died.

Lastly, my point on his strength is more about his taijutsu being top-notch and almost unbeatable. That, alone, should make him a minimum of 4 as his speed (without porting) is comparable to armor-wearing Raikage.

His taijutsu seem largely speed and blade based. If he needed to hit something hard he used a rasengan.

A high taijutsu stat does not equal high physical strength. Raikage'd has both, but they aren't always linked.

Heck, for that matter, Minato could simply be 'really good' in taijutsu and rely on the fact that simply no-one else moves as fast as him and is thus unable to defend. Win via stat hammer, not necessarily incredible taijutsu skills, so he doesn't necessarily have a maxed taijutsu stat either (like Itachi and Kakashi, who're both really good at taijutsu at 4.5. Come to think of it, 5s in taijutsu are mostly characters who have specific taijutsu jutsu).

Though it is definitely more likely than strength, he has shown zero sign of having a super high strength rating.

In order to "win" Gamabunta, you had to hold on from sun-up to sundown. It was supposed to be impossible unless you had tons of stamina. Other than Naruto, only one person was able to do it: Minato. That puts his stamina up there with just about anyone else in the series.

What? Since when?

I have never heard of this before.

He can also teleport the kyuubi, a full-powered deat-ball, and do all of that other crap he had to before he died.

Yea, he used like, 3 sizable jutsu (One Boss Summon, teleporting Kyuubi, teleporting the Biju Ball) plus his normal teleportation and rasengan. And capped off with suicide jutsu that Sarutobi also managed to pull off while tired as well.

That's really not all that much, downright average for an S-class I'd say.

Orochimaru could probably do as much if his body didn't keep breaking down (Consider what he did in the 4-tails fight: Summon three giant gates, do full-regen 3 times [a very high-cost jutsu], attack with a hundred snakes, make his sword a mile long. And that's a mere 3.5).

Memorizing jutsus is not the requirement to be high in ninjutus, however. Since he invented a tech that uses the highest form of shape manipulation, his ninjutsu cannot be any lower than a 4.

Oh, his time space jutsu *alone* gives him a 5. Heck, if it went higher than 5, it'd make it a six.

That's what makes Minato so badass from what we've seen. A combination of really high speed and really high ninjutsu.

If Itachi wasn't so sick, his speed and stamina would both jump up to 4, I belief. The Uchiha generally have lots of chakra compared to others. They were the only clan that could compete with the walking energy plants known as the Senju.

Walking energy is the Senju thing.

Sasuke's a health Uchiha, and he's an 3.5 in stamina and strength.

I think not-sick, Itachi'd be probably the same.

That's puts him, giving him 4s in the other two areas, at a 37.5.

That's still not as close to my estimate for Minato.

Yea, but I think your estimates on his strength and stamina are way off, and he's not necessarily maxed out even in all the areas he's good at like taijutsu.

Originally posted by Q99
I think A'd have an excellent chance against Minato from what we've seen. He's fast enough to keep up with his speed, and his armor is strong enough to handle Rasengan.

Between much stronger defense, and being one of the few people who can react to him, Minato'd have trouble on his hands.

I disagree. The rasengan should fair much much better against the raiton armor than the chidori that Sasuke uses especially since chidori is, you know...lightning based.

Top that off with Minato's rasengan being superior to the other "base form" rasengan's we see and add in how extremely fast Minato makes his Rasengans.

I think the fight is very one-sided in favor of Minato.

Originally posted by Q99
Gifted =/= physically strong. Gifted also doesn't mean uber in everything..

I directly disagree with that.

Gifted Shinobi means gifted in the areas of being a shinobi. That means uber everything especially since Jiraiya said he was the most gifted shinobi that ever lived: a tall order considering Jiraiya is very high on the top tier list.

"most gifted shinobi to live [but let's make an exception for Minato's strength and say it's average]" is not only a silly conclusion, it's wrong.

Originally posted by Q99
Being an uber hokage can just refer to the areas where he is uber, like time-space jutsu, one of the most rare and difficult areas of jutsu there is yet he could use it in a casual fashion.

One other thing to keep in mind he was still young; Minato was still learning and getting stronger. His gifts hadn't even reached their peak when he died.

While I do agree with you partially, it simply does not apply to someone so high up the tier listing.

I could agree if you were talking about a middle of the road jounin but this is far and away not some average jounin ninja.

Originally posted by Q99
His taijutsu seem largely speed and blade based. If he needed to hit something hard he used a rasengan.

A high taijutsu stat does not equal high physical strength. Raikage'd has both, but they aren't always linked.

Heck, for that matter, Minato could simply be 'really good' in taijutsu and rely on the fact that simply no-one else moves as fast as him and is thus unable to defend. Win via stat hammer, not necessarily incredible taijutsu skills, so he doesn't necessarily have a maxed taijutsu stat either (like Itachi and Kakashi, who're both really good at taijutsu at 4.5. Come to think of it, 5s in taijutsu are mostly characters who have specific taijutsu jutsu).

Though it is definitely more likely than strength, he has shown zero sign of having a super high strength rating.

I disagree based on fact.

Kakashi's Taijutsu level: 4.5
Speed: 4.5

Guy's Taijutsu level: 5
Strenth: 5

Naruto's Taijutsu level: 3.5
Speed: 3.5

Jiraiya's Taijutsu level: 4.5
Speed: 4.5

Neji's Taijutsu: 4.5
Speed: 4.5

Are you seeing a pattern?

To continue with some "weaker" characters:

Shikamaru's Taijutsu: 2
Speed: 2.5

Lee's Taijutsu: 5
Speed: 4.5

Kankuro's Taijutsu: 3
Speed: 2.5

Man, I'm done: it's exhausting looking up those characters. (lol) It looks like the correlation is very close. It should be quite obvious that they have to be close in number unless there is some sort of special exception or ability.

Originally posted by Q99
What? Since when?

I have never heard of this before.

When Naruto rode on his back (I believe it was after Naruto passed out), Gamabunta made mention of Minato being the other or only other person capable of doing that.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, he used like, 3 sizable jutsu (One Boss Summon, teleporting Kyuubi, teleporting the Biju Ball) plus his normal teleportation and rasengan. And capped off with suicide jutsu that Sarutobi also managed to pull off while tired as well.

That's really not all that much, downright average for an S-class I'd say.

😆

I love it! "Not much at all."

😆

So, yeah, we're done with this portion of the conversation. If you are going to say stuff like "not much at all" to the things he did, then there's not point in discussing this with you. That's rather an absurd assertion on your part.

The rest will be posted on, after I work out.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. The rasengan should fair much much better against the raiton armor than the chidori that Sasuke uses especially since chidori is, you know...lightning based.

Top that off with Minato's rasengan being superior to the other "base form" rasengan's we see and add in how extremely fast Minato makes his Rasengans.

I think the fight is very one-sided in favor of Minato.

Seeing as how Chidori can cut through lightning chakra, I say that Sasuke had somewhat of an advantage. Also, A has some pretty decent reaction time and I think the Rasengan would probably clash with the Raiton armor a bit.

Minato would definitely win but it would be because of his space-time ninjutsu more than his Rasengan.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I directly disagree with that.

Gifted Shinobi means gifted in the areas of being a shinobi. That means uber everything especially since Jiraiya said he was the most gifted shinobi that ever lived: a tall order considering Jiraiya is very high on the top tier list.

"most gifted shinobi to live [but let's make an exception for Minato's strength and say it's average]" is not only a silly conclusion, it's wrong.

But Orochimaru was stated to be just as gifted as Minato in some respects. On top of that, he actually has some feats to back it up.

Pein didn't use much taijutsu at all yet he's probably the most powerful ninja we've seen to date.

Minato does seem to have pretty average taijutsu but the fact that he can tag almost anything more than makes up for that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree based on fact.

Kakashi's Taijutsu level: 4.5
Speed: 4.5

Guy's Taijutsu level: 5
Strenth: 5

Naruto's Taijutsu level: 3.5
Speed: 3.5

Jiraiya's Taijutsu level: 4.5
Speed: 4.5

Neji's Taijutsu: 4.5
Speed: 4.5

Are you seeing a pattern?

To continue with some "weaker" characters:

Shikamaru's Taijutsu: 2
Speed: 2.5

Lee's Taijutsu: 5
Speed: 4.5

Kankuro's Taijutsu: 3
Speed: 2.5

How come Gai's the only one with a strength stat? I'm sorry I'm just asking. However some ninja such as Minato, A, Bee, and Naruto have ninjutsu that increase that speed and strength level considerably.

That could make things kind of confusing.

Originally posted by dadudemon

When Naruto rode on his back (I believe it was after Naruto passed out), Gamabunta made mention of Minato being the other or only other person capable of doing that.

Seeing as how Jiraiya was the one that originally summoned Gamabunta, I see that as kind of an inconsistent statement.

Minato has never shown himself to be particularly strong and until shown otherwise, his strength should be considered average. When the databook comes out and gives us the same unrealistic numbers as it gave Itachi, then it will be settled.

As for a fight, Minato would indeed beat A, but his Rasengan probably wouldn't do much to the raiton shield. I don't see anything that would say it could.

Originally posted by Q99
I think A'd have an excellent chance against Minato from what we've seen. He's fast enough to keep up with his speed, and his armor is strong enough to handle Rasengan.

Between much stronger defense, and being one of the few people who can react to him, Minato'd have trouble on his hands.

Agreed on all accounts. A seems like a very bad stylistic matchup for minato seeing as he is able to nullify his two main advantages, (speed and Rasengan). A's attacks on the other hand are likely capable of ending minato very quickly....Quite frankly, most of the arguments in support of minato's ranking are gross speculation based on hyperbolic statements. Very little on panel substance it seems. Theorizing what minato should have been able to do based on his reputation is nice and all, but in order for any of it to be validated, we definitely need to see something more concrete before elevating him to a level even above other S+ class ninjas

A raigerbombs minato so hard, naruto dies

I've learned to keep my opinions to myself. Hell, to be honest, I'm not as into Naruto as you all are. I read it every week, but that is as far as I go. I'm probably the only one that tries not to speculate what will happen in the next chapter. I just read and say to myself, "Badass. Wonder what next week will have." Then I mosey myself on for the next week until the issue comes out. The most important thing I've learned from reading the weekly arguments is this. DON'T argue with Dadudemon.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Seeing as how Chidori can cut through lightning chakra, I say that Sasuke had somewhat of an advantage. Also, A has some pretty decent reaction time and I think the Rasengan would probably clash with the Raiton armor a bit.

Minato would definitely win but it would be because of his space-time ninjutsu more than his Rasengan.

I can deal with that conclusion. I think A, because of his extreme speed and armor, make him one of the most powerful S class fighters in a 1v1.

Come on...I mean...he took on Sasuke's eyeballs and WOULD have won (but lost a foot a bit above the ankle) had he not be stopped.

Also, where does it say that Chidori can cut lightning chakra? I thought that was Kakashi's "lightning blade" and it was more a myth and exaggeration?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But Orochimaru was stated to be just as gifted as Minato in some respects. On top of that, he actually has some feats to back it up.

Pein didn't use much taijutsu at all yet he's probably the most powerful ninja we've seen to date.

Minato does seem to have pretty average taijutsu but the fact that he can tag almost anything more than makes up for that.

Oro was the genius of his generation. There are references to "geniuses" that show up once a generation. Minato was one generation below Oro. So, yes, in that regard, they are both a "once in a generation" genius. I talked about this with Q99, before.

Also, Taijutsu is largey tied to speed (as I indicated). That's why his taijutsu ranking is a solid 5 or better. Mixed with his other techs, his taijutsu is one of the most potent of anything we've seen.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
How come Gai's the only one with a strength stat? I'm sorry I'm just asking. However some ninja such as Minato, A, Bee, and Naruto have ninjutsu that increase that speed and strength level considerably.

That could make things kind of confusing.

I believe that's a typo as his speed, strength, and taijutsu are all the same: 5.

And, yes, Q99 made the same point, a few days ago: some people just make those numbers seem silly. For instance, Gaara should have some slow speed, but he can move his sand REALLY fast (so fast that he was able to stop a strike from A in full Raiton armor! That's just insanely fast.)

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Seeing as how Jiraiya was the one that originally summoned Gamabunta, I see that as kind of an inconsistent statement.

Wah?

Jiraiya LIVED with the toads. He probably made his pact with the chief while living there. He probably earned the respect from the chief through the many years he spent living with the toads. This, as opposed, to the method that Minato and Naruto used: forcing Gamabunta to acknowledge them.

Jiraiya's method is better and more respectful, to be sure.

However, we actually do not know how Jiraiya got a pact with Gamabunta. We can only guess (since Gamabunta said that the forth was the only other person to ride him all day (no homo) when Naruto passed out) that Jiraiya got his pact due to living with the toads in their enclave.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Minato has never shown himself to be particularly strong and until shown otherwise, his strength should be considered average. When the databook comes out and gives us the same unrealistic numbers as it gave Itachi, then it will be settled.

I think it's illogical to give such a legendary ninja such a low strength level especially because there's a strong correlation between taijutsu skill, speed, and strength.

Additionally, Minato was definitely not average in any way. This is why I think a 3 is much too low. I can't really settle for a 4 because I think that's still too low. A 5 is probably correct, but I can be talked down to a 4.5.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
As for a fight, Minato would indeed beat A, but his Rasengan probably wouldn't do much to the raiton shield. I don't see anything that would say it could.

I don't see anything that says his raiton armor would stand up to a rasengan especially since Minato's rasengan is supposedly better than Naruto's base Rasengan (it's bigger and has reached the "highest form of shape manipulation."😉

But, yes, if we get a databook (which we never will), we could really settle it. I think a 39 is about right.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Agreed on all accounts. A seems like a very bad stylistic matchup for minato seeing as he is able to nullify his two main advantages, (speed and Rasengan). A's attacks on the other hand are likely capable of ending minato very quickly....Quite frankly, most of the arguments in support of minato's ranking are gross speculation based on hyperbolic statements. Very little on panel substance it seems. Theorizing what minato should have been able to do based on his reputation is nice and all, but in order for any of it to be validated, we definitely need to see something more concrete before elevating him to a level even above other S+ class ninjas

Since Minato can port AND move as fast as an "amped" A, the speed variable from A is a non-issue. A will burn himself out trying to even land a hit on Minato.

I think most of the arguments that downplay Minato's ranks are even more gross speculation than the ranks I've assigned him. I've backed up my claims with some evidence. Sure, there's a level of ambiguity, but it's not even close to being baseless.

Originally posted by The Red
DON'T argue with Dadudemon.

Dude, I've been wrong MANY times and I've admitted it, too. Just recently (maybe last week?) I was wrong about something and I admitted it straight away. OH! I remember...it was the thing about white zetsu. I was under the impression that the ninja were aware of his ability to perfectly mimic another ninja down to the techs and everything. I was wrong: it was only something the reader knew.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, his time space jutsu *alone* gives him a 5. Heck, if it went higher than 5, it'd make it a six.

That's what makes Minato so badass from what we've seen. A combination of really high speed and really high ninjutsu.

Really?

It would seem those that edited the wiki tend to agree with you. They give him lots of credit in the taijutsu department because of the things you mentioned.

Originally posted by Q99
Walking energy is the Senju thing.

Sasuke's a health Uchiha, and he's an 3.5 in stamina and strength.

Yeah, that's why I said that: The Senju seem to be walking energy plants.

Also, I think Sasuke's stamina increased to at least a 4. He's done some amazing things with his stamina since the third databook. He's not even an adult, yet. Of course, Sasuke is considered strong, even for an Uchiha, but the Uchiha competed on almost even ground with the Senju and their chakra was called "strong" or something like that...so the Uchiha are definitely above average in their chakra stores, imo.

Originally posted by Q99
I think not-sick, Itachi'd be probably the same.

Since he's older than Sasuke, I think Itachi, healthy, would be at least a 4 in stamina. Same reasoning as above.

IF sasuke reaches 21, he should be around a 4.5 to a 5 (based on his current rate of growth.)

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but I think your estimates on his strength and stamina are way off, and he's not necessarily maxed out even in all the areas he's good at like taijutsu.

I think that, at the worst, my estimates on his strength and stamina are off by .5.

Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]I disagree. The rasengan should fair much much better against the raiton armor than the chidori that Sasuke uses especially since chidori is, you know...lightning based.

So? Lightning vs lightning is no disadvantage, and it's designed to pierce, something lightning's good at. Rasengan's un-elemental chakra and not designed to pierce.

Top that off with Minato's rasengan being superior to the other "base form" rasengan's we see and add in how extremely fast Minato makes his Rasengans.

How is it superior other than speed? It's strong, sure, but it didn't look any stronger than the one Naruto used against Deva Pain or similar.

I directly disagree with that.

Gifted Shinobi means gifted in the areas of being a shinobi. That means uber everything especially since Jiraiya said he was the most gifted shinobi that ever lived: a tall order considering Jiraiya is very high on the top tier list.

Gifted in areas of being a shinobi =/= giften in ALL areas of being a shinobi.

Except Orochimaru and Sasuke are both considered insanely gifted and still have their lower-stat areas.

You're assuming "Most overall gifted," is the same as "Giften in every single area," rather than simply having the highest total of gifts.

While I do agree with you partially, it simply does not apply to someone so high up the tier listing.

I could agree if you were talking about a middle of the road jounin but this is far and away not some average jounin ninja.

No, it applies to all level. Even an S ranking ninja can still be a specialist (and by 'Specialist,' we're still talking 3-4 or so areas where he's better than anyone else), we've seen that pretty often. Raikage being another example, and quite a similar one.

I disagree based on fact.
--

Are you seeing a pattern?

Showing that people tend to have similar taijutsu and speed stats is not a way of showing his strength stat is uber, but that's far from universal anyway.

Let's consider, using both strength and speed compared to taijutsu:
Kurenai:
Taijutsu 4
Strength 2

Tsunade:
Taijutsu 5
Speed 3.5

Hiashi:
Taijutsu 5
Speed 4
Strength 3.5

Hidan:
Taijutsu 4.5
Speed 3.5

Deidara:
Speed 4.5
Taijutsu 3.5
Strength 3.5

Orochimaru:
Speed 4.5
Taijutsu 3.5
Strength 3.5

Tenten:
Taijutsu 3.5
Strength 1.5 (and 3.5 to 1 in the second databook! An entire 2.5 difference)

Differences of 1 are common, differences of more than one aren't particularly rare either.

In other words, being good at taijutsu does not mean one has to have high strength and speed, and having high speed doesn't require high strength or taijutsu either. None of the stats automatically mean the other is high too.

While there is often correlation, it is not universal by any means, and Minato does have reason to not even need high strength.

It should be quite obvious that they have to be close in number unless there is some sort of special exception or ability.

Something like teleporting in other words, something that'd grant him the ability to be highly effective in melee combat without crazy high strength.

Especially when combined with rasengan, which allows him to hit hard without strength.

He's shown no signs of being in the top league of strength or of needing it to do what he does. When we did see him kill a Stone Jonin, his method of choice was cutting his throat no less.

When Naruto rode on his back (I believe it was after Naruto passed out), Gamabunta made mention of Minato being the other or only other person capable of doing that.

Minato's the only other person Gamabunta *lets* do that, precisely.

And there was nothing about keeping him summoned for an entire day at any point.

I love it! "Not much at all."

So, yeah, we're done with this portion of the conversation. If you are going to say stuff like "not much at all" to the things he did, then there's not point in discussing this with you. That's rather an absurd assertion on your part.

Keep in mind we are talking "Specifically compared to other Kage-level ninja," and I specifically gave examples of someone performing almost as many big jutsu at a mere 3.5!

His amount of chakra is quite impressive by normal standards, but it is not particularly beyond the amount of stuff other S-class with ratings definitely below 5 do.

A five in stamina is assumption that doesn't fit with what we've seen. Kage level chakra to be sure, but he has not shown anything to put him above the Kage level ninja with 4.0 and the like, and simply laughing and saying 'there's no point in discussing' is not a counterargument in the least when there's actual examples on the field.

Since he's older than Sasuke, I think Itachi, healthy, would be at least a 4 in stamina. Same reasoning as above.

IF sasuke reaches 21, he should be around a 4.5 to a 5 (based on his current rate of growth.)

Sasuke's already pretty mature, being older isn't a reason someone's stamina will automatically go up drastically once you pass the teenage growth spurt he's already had. Some, sure, but not much reason for a huge advance (well, unless the EMS grants that, but that'd surprise me if so).

I doubt Sasuke'll ever get past 4, or that Itachi ever reached it.

I think that, at the worst, my estimates on his strength and stamina are off by .5.

Strength, 1.5 / 2 off, stamina, probably 1 off.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Uchiha competed on almost even ground with the Senju and their chakra was called "strong" or something like that

Not getting into the Minato argument though. Not getting into a speculatory debate about a character I could not give a shit about.

Originally posted by Q99
So? Lightning vs lightning is no disadvantage, and it's designed to pierce, something lightning's good at. Rasengan's un-elemental chakra and not designed to pierce.

Where is your evidence that Raiton armor would stop the highlest level of shape manipulation?

Where's your evidence that Raiton armor is particularly effective at blocking lightning blades?

In fact, A seemed surprised that Sasuke's lightning blade (chidori) pierced so deeply indicating, to me, that a lightning blade attack against his armor should have been very ineffective, giving credence to my notion that the Lightning on lightning attack was obviously a bad idea.

Originally posted by Q99
How is it superior other than speed? It's strong, sure, but it didn't look any stronger than the one Naruto used against Deva Pain or similar.

It's larger, duh. 🙂

Originally posted by Q99
Gifted in areas of being a shinobi =/= giften in ALL areas of being a shinobi.

"Gifted Shinobi means gifted in the areas of being a shinobi. That means uber everything especially since Jiraiya said he was the most gifted shinobi that ever lived: a tall order considering Jiraiya is very high on the top tier list.

'most gifted shinobi to live [but let's make an exception for Minato's strength and say it's average]' is not only a silly conclusion, it's wrong."

Originally posted by Q99
Except Orochimaru and Sasuke are both considered insanely gifted and still have their lower-stat areas.

You're assuming "Most overall gifted," is the same as "Giften in every single area," rather than simply having the highest total of gifts.

Wrong: Oro was the once in a generation shinobi, Sasuke is not. Sasuke is not "insanely gifted."

Additionally, there's not a single "low" stat on Oro or Sasuke, thus proving my point using your examples. 🙂

And to the second part:

"most gifted shinobi to live [but let's make an exception for Minato's strength and say it's average]' is not only a silly conclusion, it's wrong."

Originally posted by Q99
No, it applies to all level. Even an S ranking ninja can still be a specialist (and by 'Specialist,' we're still talking 3-4 or so areas where he's better than anyone else), we've seen that pretty often. Raikage being another example, and quite a similar one.

"While I do agree with you partially, it simply does not apply to someone so high up the tier listing.

I could agree if you were talking about a middle of the road jounin but this is far and away not some average jounin ninja."

With the Raikage, we can pretty much max out particular areas:

Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Stamina: 5

What are the other areas left over?
Intelligence.

Compare that to Minato: Minato is the "once in a generation" ninja from his generation so he's maxed up probably higher than any other 5 from his gen...especially since he was the most jutsu innovative ninja we have seen (no one else comes as close to jutsu innovation as he does. Our second "best" option revolves around Oro trying to perfect an already existing jutsu, not creating new ones.)

So there's already an area that makes him better than A.

What's left?

Genjutsu:

We cannot even come close to knowing what his level there, is. However, based on other Jounin (or better) that are as intelligent or less intelligent, we can safely conclude he cannot be any lower than a 4 (Minato). Since he's the premiere genius of his generation, it's not even close to a stretch to consider him a 5 in the area. Even Guy, who is arguably the stupidest Jounin in Konoha, has a 3 in genjutsu. Knowing you way around Genjutsu almost seems like a requirement to be a Jounin in Konoha. (I searched and I cannot find a single instance of a Jounin having anything less than a 3 in genjutsu. It looks like there is a strong correlation between genjutsu and intelligence. The largest disparity from the experienced shinobi, I could find, was a .5 from Gaara. You may be able to find a larger disparity, but it seems that there's a very close relationship, there. That makes sense, however. Of all the stats, you'd expect those two to be the closest.)

Hand seals: easily a 5 for Minato. Only the "legendary" Uzumaki clan leader could probably claim more proficiency than this genius. 🙂

So far, here are my rankings for Minato without including the controversial ones:

Speed: 5
Intelligence: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Ninjutsu: 5
Hand Seals: 5

Here are my bare minimum measures for the other areas:

Strength: 4
Genjutsu: 4
Stamina: 5

Total: 38

Here's my "most probable" estimate, meaning, what he probably would be, based on the legend, but no feats to back it up.

Speed: 5
Intelligence: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Ninjutsu: 5
Hand Seals: 5
Strength: 4.5
Genjutsu: 4.5
Stamina: 5

Total: 39

Originally posted by Q99
Showing that people tend to have similar taijutsu and speed stats is not a way of showing his strength stat is uber, but that's far from universal anyway.

Actually, I completely lost track of what I was trying to do, there.

I think the only thing I was trying to do was show a correlation between speed and taijutsu. It looks like those two are linked. Looking back, that was tangential to what we were talking about.

Originally posted by Q99
Let's consider, using both strength and speed compared to taijutsu:
Kurenai:
Taijutsu 4
Strength 2

Tsunade:
Taijutsu 5
Speed 3.5

Hiashi:
Taijutsu 5
Speed 4
Strength 3.5

Hidan:
Taijutsu 4.5
Speed 3.5

Deidara:
Speed 4.5
Taijutsu 3.5
Strength 3.5

Orochimaru:
Speed 4.5
Taijutsu 3.5
Strength 3.5

Tenten:
Taijutsu 3.5
Strength 1.5 (and 3.5 to 1 in the second databook! An entire 2.5 difference)

Differences of 1 are common, differences of more than one aren't particularly rare either.

In other words, being good at taijutsu does not mean one has to have high strength and speed, and having high speed doesn't require high strength or taijutsu either. None of the stats automatically mean the other is high too.

While there is often correlation, it is not universal by any means, and Minato does have reason to not even need high strength.

I think that MAYBE my point was with Taijutsu specialists, strength is correlated. Minato can be considered a taijutsu specialist because he mixes in high level ninjutsu with speed and taijutsu...similar to A, Guy, Lee, etc.

Maybe that was my point...but I lost track because I'm an idiot.

Your response to this will consist of “But Minato is a different kind of taijutsu specialist that doesn’t rely on strength like the others you are referring to.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got. I understood that concept before you thought about posting. I still think they are linked, even with Minato. It’s possible that strength and Stamina are linked. I’ll have to take a look into that.

Originally posted by Q99
Something like teleporting in other words, something that'd grant him the ability to be highly effective in melee combat without crazy high strength.

Especially when combined with rasengan, which allows him to hit hard without strength.

He's shown no signs of being in the top league of strength or of needing it to do what he does. When we did see him kill a Stone Jonin, his method of choice was cutting his throat no less.

I think hitting hard with a rasengan requires strength, imo. At least a level 3.

His was larger than the other regular ones we saw and he could form it faster.

In conclusion, what you're suggesting is we rate him low on strength despite there being no evidence to say he's average in strength. If we take a look at the jounin, a 3 would be below average in strength. If we take a look at the top tier Jounin, a 3.5 would be just below average in strength. Like I said, prior: a 4 is the absolute minimum he can be.

Originally posted by Q99
Minato's the only other person Gamabunta *lets* do that, precisely.

And there was nothing about keeping him summoned for an entire day at any point.

Naruto AND Minato had the same trial: they had to stay on his back a whole day to "earn" his summon.

But I just checked chapter 96 and that trial wasn't there. That's an anime only thing.

And, Gama said that the forth was the last person to ride on his head. I'm not sure about "letting" as Naruto certainly didn't ask if he could ride on Gama's head.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind we are talking "Specifically compared to other Kage-level ninja," and I specifically gave examples of someone performing almost as many big jutsu at a mere 3.5!

Teleporting a large object like a tailed beast is enough to cause a level 4 stamina person to literally pass out after the summon.

In other words, I literally win this portion of the discussion and you're wrong. I'm not joking.

If Naruto, at a stamina of 4, summoned (which is a telportation tech) Gamabunta and he passed out shortly afterwards...then that makes Minato well into the 5s on stamina and probably a high level 5, at that. Why? He teleported a tailed beast which is on par with Gamabunta. That's a bare minimum of a four. But didn’t he also SUMMON Gamabunta? Those two feats, alone, make his stamina, literally, twice Naruto’s when Naruto summoned Gamabunta for the first time. hehehehe.

However, he did many many things besides that: some really high level techs.

So, here's my bare-minimum measures for Minato:

Speed: 5
Intelligence: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Ninjutsu: 5
Hand Seals: 5
Strength: 4.5
Genjutsu: 4.5
Stamina: 5

Originally posted by Q99
His amount of chakra is quite impressive by normal standards, but it is not particularly beyond the amount of stuff other S-class with ratings definitely below 5 do.

WRONG! 😄

Originally posted by Q99
A five in stamina is assumption that doesn't fit with what we've seen. Kage level chakra to be sure, but he has not shown anything to put him above the Kage level ninja with 4.0 and the like, and simply laughing and saying 'there's no point in discussing' is not a counterargument in the least when there's actual examples on the field.

WRONG!

I was laughing because of how stubbornly blinded you were being (both of us do that, at times).

In addition, there's absolutely no way you can justify him being any less than a 5 based on a bare-minimum of a four being required (with passing out) to teleport a beast as large as Gamabunta.

Originally posted by Q99
Sasuke's already pretty mature, being older isn't a reason someone's stamina will automatically go up drastically once you pass the teenage growth spurt he's already had. Some, sure, but not much reason for a huge advance (well, unless the EMS grants that, but that'd surprise me if so).

I doubt Sasuke'll ever get past 4, or that Itachi ever reached it.

I disagree based on fact.

Universally, stamina increases with age until prime. Prime seems to be somewhere between 25-35.

Originally posted by Q99
Strength, 1.5 / 2 off, stamina, probably 1 off.

You’re strength measure is just as correct as mine, so we cannot argue that. However, I do submit this image as prove that his strength is definitely 4 or better:

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-502-page-16.html

He creates a crater with Madara’s body with force, alone. That’s not as big of a crater as the Raikage’s, but that should show you that his strength cannot be 3 or even 3.5. I would like to submit that anything less than 4 is just silly. 4.5 is me being reasonable. If we adhere to he legends, he might be a 5 but I just don’t feel comfortable saying he’s as high as a 5 without another feat. I’ll stick with 4.5 as the reasonable choice and concede to you that a 4 is possible.

Stamina? You're dead wrong. 🙂 He's not less than a mid to high level 5 in stamina.

I would not discuss these things if I did not think you were at least partially right/intelligent. So I may seem like I'm being stubborn, but look back and see how many times you've gotten me to change my opinions or proved me wrong? I don't consider these discussions a waste of time.