Originally posted by dadudemon
I think that MAYBE my point was with Taijutsu specialists, strength is correlated. Minato can be considered a taijutsu specialist because he mixes in high level ninjutsu with speed and taijutsu...similar to A, Guy, Lee, etc.
Only strength based ones, but he's not, he uses blades, speed, and rasengan.
Another example: Kimimaro, Taijutsu 5, strength 3.
And he's one of the scariest taijutsu fighters there is!
I think hitting hard with a rasengan requires strength, imo. At least a level 3.
It shouldn't, it leaves the hand and travels on it's own, you don't muscle it into your foe once it's connected. Konohamaru can hit pretty hard with his little rasengan and kid muscles.
Though Minato should have no problem being a 3 or more anyway (I'd guess 3.5, same as a lot of other speed types). He's in good shape, just not a strength specialist.
In conclusion, what you're suggesting is we rate him low on strength despite there being no evidence to say he's average in strength. If we take a look at the jounin, a 3 would be below average in strength. If we take a look at the top tier Jounin, a 3.5 would be just below average in strength. Like I said, prior: a 4 is the absolute minimum he can be.
Why can't he be the same level as Kakashi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, and other top-tier people who are excellent in melee and not strength based?
Naruto AND Minato had the same trial: they had to stay on his back a whole day to "earn" his summon.But I just checked chapter 96 and that trial wasn't there. That's an anime only thing.
I can't find any reference to that in the anime, and Naruto sure didn't stay a whole day when he got Gamabunta. Are you sure it's not just some fanon you picked up?
Nor do I have reason to believe other S-classes couldn't.
Teleporting a large object like a tailed beast is enough to cause a level 4 stamina person to literally pass out after the summon.
Remember, Orochimaru's got a 3.5 and can do stuff like summon Manda or the three gates without even greatly taxing himself.
Tsunade's a 4 without her forehead diamond, and she does Katsuyu without being tired either.
We've seen people summon multiple boss-summons.
In other words, I literally win this portion of the discussion and you're wrong. I'm not joking.
Then that's debating poorly, you *always* gotta explain. Even if you're right, you can't expect the other person to change their minds without knowing the correct information!
Btw, I think this is another case of "You're missing something important." Now that you've actually explained yourself, I can point out a crucial tidbit that should change things significantly.
If Naruto, at a stamina of 4, summoned (which is a telportation tech) Gamabunta and he passed out shortly afterwards...
Important point you forgot: Jiraiya had him empty his chakra first so that he'd draw on fox-chakra instinctively so he could summon.
Meaning that Naruto was an *already drained* stamina 4, using purely his fox chakra, his main chakra supply already gone.
Also, he wasn't exactly great at making chakra and his jutsu are inefficient, so his usable chakra is probably way below normal for a stamina 4, but even so, that was not Naruto's full capacity or even near it.
then that makes Minato well into the 5s on stamina and probably a high level 5, at that.
That'd also make Orochimaru, Tsunade, and similar 5s as well, but they aren't.
So, here's my bare-minimum measures for Minato:Speed: 5
Intelligence: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Ninjutsu: 5
Hand Seals: 5
Strength: 4.5
Genjutsu: 4.5
Stamina: 5
My estimate is Minato's: Nin 5, tai 4.5 or 5, Genjutsu 3.5 or 4, Int 5, speed 5, strength 3.5, stamina 3.5 or 4, handseals 5.
Genjutsu could technically be as low as 3 since we've never seen him do any (3's minimum for defense), and strength could technically be as low as 3, but again I think a bit higher is likely.
I was laughing because of how stubbornly blinded you were being (both of us do that, at times).
You didn't actually explain your point about Gamabunta-making-Naruto-pass-out at all until the latest posted, though.
It's not stubbornly blinded to not change one's side because the other side shouts "wrong" and doesn't elaborate 🙂
That's just not being easily swayed. Always explain, because sometimes it's just one of us missing something, and even if it's not one has to know an objection before they can be convinced by it.
I disagree based on fact.Universally, stamina increases with age until prime. Prime seems to be somewhere between 25-35.
We don't exactly have a lot of comparisons between someone at 16 and the same someone at 25 though.
Also just because it advances doesn't mean it'll continue advancing at a fast rate. Strength and stamina and speed seem to advance fast for young ninja, but they're actively, physically growing. After that it can only increase with endurance training or body modification, it shouldn't just go up on it's own and not all older ninja have great stamina.
Even if it increases in the 16-through-25 period, it might only go up .5.
Admittedly, due to less information, I'll admit I could be wrong on this one, I don't think I can be sure.
He creates a crater with Madara’s body with force, alone. That’s not as big of a crater as the Raikage’s, but that should show you that his strength cannot be 3 or even 3.5.
But that's with a rasengan involved.
Konohamaru's Rasengan makes a crater (a lesser one, but it's a lesser rasengan).
That's not strength doing it. That's rasengan, a ninjutsu that allows the user to take out tough foes without brute strength.
I would not discuss these things if I did not think you were at least partially right/intelligent. So I may seem like I'm being stubborn, but look back and see how many times you've gotten me to change my opinions or proved me wrong? I don't consider these discussions a waste of time.
Yea, I think you're someone who can be reached with argument too, even if we do often disagree 🙂
Originally posted by Q99
Only strength based ones, but he's not, he uses blades, speed, and rasengan.Another example: Kimimaro, Taijutsu 5, strength 3.
And he's one of the scariest taijutsu fighters there is!
You named a diseased, weak, person. Do you have anyone else? 🙂
Originally posted by Q99
It shouldn't, it leaves the hand and travels on it's own, you don't muscle it into your foe once it's connected. Konohamaru can hit pretty hard with his little rasengan and kid muscles.Though Minato should have no problem being a 3 or more anyway (I'd guess 3.5, same as a lot of other speed types). He's in good shape, just not a strength specialist.
You can clearly see that the Rasengan did not leave his hand and Minato was smashing Madara into the ground. We can't really debate this point further but I'm now 100% convinced that there's no way his strength can be less than a 4 based on that feat, alone.
Originally posted by Q99
Why can't he be the same level as Kakashi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, and other top-tier people who are excellent in melee and not strength based?
Oro is not excellent in Melee. Oro is also weakened from his body transfer tech.
Originally posted by Q99
I can't find any reference to that in the anime, and Naruto sure didn't stay a whole day when he got Gamabunta. Are you sure it's not just some fanon you picked up?Nor do I have reason to believe other S-classes couldn't.
Re-watch Naruto 57. That's the episode that's on.
I'd say that anyone with a 4 or better, in stamina, would be able to hold on to Gamabunta, all day. 🙂
Originally posted by Q99
Remember, Orochimaru's got a 3.5 and can do stuff like summon Manda or the three gates without even greatly taxing himself.Tsunade's a 4 without her forehead diamond, and she does Katsuyu without being tired either.
That's quite easy to explain: none of them are doing two summons.
Manda, Gamabunta, and Katsuyu are all considered to be massive summons that require large amounts of chakra to summon. Oro wasn't worn out and neither was Tsunade when they summoned those two, either...nor did they have a tailed beast with which to draw.
So a 3.5 and a 4 should be sufficient enough to continue fighting without using extensive techs...which both continued to do. Neither of them used a jutsu nearly as chakra consuming as a top-tier beast summon.
Originally posted by Q99
We've seen people summon multiple boss-summons.
Ahhh, yes, but none as large as gamabunta and the like. The beast summoner from Pain was from Pain and Pain, arguably, has had the largest amount of chakra from any single individual we've seen, to date. All of his feats against Konoha put him, easily, as the high chakra containing person. Far above Kisame AFTER he's absorbed B's chakra. Agreed?
That's the only multiple summoner we've seen (that I recall).
Originally posted by Q99
Then that's debating poorly, you *always* gotta explain. Even if you're right, you can't expect the other person to change their minds without knowing the correct information!
I thought that point is the final nail in your point. Your entire argument seems dead to me.
Originally posted by Q99
Btw, I think this is another case of "You're missing something important." Now that you've actually explained yourself, I can point out a crucial tidbit that should change things significantly.
Bring it. 😄
Originally posted by Q99
Important point you forgot: Jiraiya had him empty his chakra first so that he'd draw on fox-chakra instinctively so he could summon.
So, what you're saying...
Naruto, exhausted, using the near limitless supply of Kyuubi chakra with a tad bit of his own, is somehow making my point about a level 4 chakra person, any less?
What's actually happened is it looks like you missed a major point.
You missed that Naruto is a jinchuriki who could not yet fully tap into the foxes chakra. Using up a massive amount of that chakra, which was mostly not his own, caused him to pass out. Part of his 4 rating was the kyuubi's chakra mixing with his own. Or do you not remember you pwning me on the point about 2 years ago?
Originally posted by Q99
Meaning that Naruto was an *already drained* stamina 4, using purely his fox chakra, his main chakra supply already gone.
Wrong. That stamina of 4 rating includes some of the Kyuubi's chakra, as you pointed out to me a while back.
Originally posted by Q99
Also, he wasn't exactly great at making chakra and his jutsu are inefficient, so his usable chakra is probably way below normal for a stamina 4, but even so, that was not Naruto's full capacity or even near it.
Good point, but that still does not matter to the overall point: a level 4 in chakra passed out after a summon. Not only is this level 4 have more than most lefvel 4s, he tapped into his tailed beast's chakra to pull it off...making the actual feat greater than a level 4 user could possibly do.
But what's really going on?
Minato did lots of stuff before he was out of chakra.
Teleporting multiple times, all over the place.
Teleporting away the bijuu blast.
Trade blows with Madara while using teleporting, seals, etc.
Defeating Madara with a rasengan and causing a massive crater:
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-503-page-3.html
Sealing Madara's control on the Kyuubi.
Teleporting to the Kyuubi.
Summoning Gamabunta.
And here he states that it takes a lot of chakra to seal away the bijuu and blast implying that his sealing-transport technique requires quite a bit.
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-503-page-11.html
Then he teleported the bijuu and blast away.
After all of that, he still does the death god tech and sealing away half of the kyuubi's chakra into the death god.
He then summons the bijuu pedastool.
He then gets stabbed through the chest.
He then summons gamatora.
He THEN seals SOME of his remaining chakras into Naruto.
He then seals Kushina's and the other half of the Kyuubi's.
I mean, holy sh*t, dude, what else do you want from that guy to give him his rightful credit?
The only other person that used more chakra in a fight was Pain (Nagato) in his whole ordeal with Konoha.
A summon from a level 4 is enough to cause Naruto to pass out. He used the massive amounts of chakra the tailed beast had to offer. Sure, we can split hairs and say that he used up all of his other chakra, but that's not the case since his chakra is always mixing with the tailed beasts.
Originally posted by Q99
That'd also make Orochimaru, Tsunade, and similar 5s as well, but they aren't.
I disagree, it'd make them 3s. Because Oro's a 3.5, they can do a few more things afterwards, but nothing too overly taxing. They should fail to do two summons that large. Jiraiya may be able to pull off two really large summons, but he'd be weakened...unless he taped into Sage Mode. Additionally, Jiraiya may be a really high 5 because he still summoned Gamabunta while having that drug mess with his ability to use chakra.
Originally posted by Q99
My estimate is Minato's: Nin 5, tai 4.5 or 5, Genjutsu 3.5 or 4, Int 5, speed 5, strength 3.5, stamina 3.5 or 4, handseals 5.Genjutsu could technically be as low as 3 since we've never seen him do any (3's minimum for defense), and strength could technically be as low as 3, but again I think a bit higher is likely.
I agree, somewhat. I think you're lowballing the numbers, though. Genjutsu seems to be tied almost directly to intelligence. I literally could not find a variance greater than .5 between intelligence and genjutsu.
But, with your numbers, here's how it stacks up: 36.5
So you mean to say that he's only 1 point above Jiraiya? (That still puts him as the strongest single character that has been rated.)
What about Hiruzen? He has 0 genjutsu feats yet he's a 5?
Originally posted by Q99
You didn't actually explain your point about Gamabunta-making-Naruto-pass-out at all until the latest posted, though.It's not stubbornly blinded to not change one's side because the other side shouts "wrong" and doesn't elaborate 🙂
That's just not being easily swayed. Always explain, because sometimes it's just one of us missing something, and even if it's not one has to know an objection before they can be convinced by it.
To be perfectly honest, it's usually me missing something. 😉
Originally posted by Q99
We don't exactly have a lot of comparisons between someone at 16 and the same someone at 25 though.
But we do have comparisons for peole between 12 and 16.
When the next databook comes out (it should be coming out this year or next year), we get to see how much each character has grown. Naruto has done a TON since the third databook: learned rasenshuriken (thrown), sage mode and a plethora of sage techs, kyuubi mastery, and so forth.
Sakura, I'm sure, has learned lots about medical techs.
Lee probably got stronger as well as Neji.
Chouji especially got stronger.
Shika got better in his battle tactics and maturity.
Bla bla bla. You get the point.
There's tons of ways that they've improved. I would even say that Kakashi improved in his stamina at least a .5. (He should be around a 3.5, now.)
Originally posted by Q99
Also just because it advances doesn't mean it'll continue advancing at a fast rate. Strength and stamina and speed seem to advance fast for young ninja, but they're actively, physically growing. After that it can only increase with endurance training or body modification, it shouldn't just go up on it's own and not all older ninja have great stamina.Even if it increases in the 16-through-25 period, it might only go up .5.
Admittedly, due to less information, I'll admit I could be wrong on this one, I don't think I can be sure.
We know for a fact that Naruto isn't done growing as his father was still several inches (cm) taller. We also know that Minato was still growing in abilities because he was trying to master the rasengan nature addition. I think Minato was close to hitting his peak (but still had about a decade before he hit his absolute peak) and he died around 25-27. (BTW, that's a debate, in and of itself: how old was Minato when he died? I estimate about 26. That puts him around the same exact age as his peers such as Shikaku. That's about as sound as the logic can get, at this point. I don't see how someone conclude anything else.)
Originally posted by Q99
But that's with a rasengan involved.Konohamaru's Rasengan makes a crater (a lesser one, but it's a lesser rasengan).
That's not strength doing it. That's rasengan, a ninjutsu that allows the user to take out tough foes without brute strength.
Yeah..but..Kono is a Sarutobi: that cat is already strong. 313
I see the two as being comparable. If you notice, the damage is occuring WHILE they are punching it into their victim.
Minato was still pushing the rasengan into Madara and it wasn't until AFTER that giant massive crater was formed that he "released" it to do its damage and THEN we saw the damage/blood splatter on Madara's back where it hit.
It's all strength until he releases it. Minato's crater was vastly superior to Kono's. In fact, Minato's crater is ALMOST comparable to the Raikage's. I still won't say that Minato is as strong as the Raikage, but the Raikage is definitely a solid 5 (meaning, a 5.5 or greater...but the scale doesn't go that high.) This is why I have to give him a 4.5, at the absolute bare minimum.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, I think you're someone who can be reached with argument too, even if we do often disagree 🙂
I DO concede the genjutsu point...I just don't think he can be greater than .5 away from his intelligence which is obviously a 5.
His stamina seems through the roof: among the greatest seen.
His strength, actually, seems to be his weakest point (if you take intelligence to be a strong indicator of where his genjutsu abilities are.) I still only drop that down to a 4, at the lowest.
I will drop my stamina level down to a 4 if you bring your strength up to a 4. lol
Deal? 😆
Originally posted by dadudemon
I
Since Minato can port AND move as fast as an "amped" A, the speed variable from A is a non-issue. A will burn himself out trying to even land a hit on Minato.I think most of the arguments that downplay Minato's ranks are even more gross speculation than the ranks I've assigned him. I've backed up my claims with some evidence. Sure, there's a level of ambiguity, but it's not even close to being baseless.
I dont think it was ever mentioned that minato could move as fast as an amped A. Ive seen different things in different translations but usually it goes like
"The speed of Raikage-sama's nervous system and reflexes... are comparable to those of the Yellow Flash.... These guys are almost keeping up / But since he has the raiton Chakra amplifying his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can keep up"
Another translation i got from manga helpers goes:
"Shii: Raikage-sama's reflexes are on the same level as the late Yellow Flash...I'm impressed those three can even keep up.
But now that his body's surrounded in lightning chakra, even the Sharingan will lose sight of him...
But they're still..."
leading me to believe that the first statement was in reference to his nervous system plainly hence the minato comparison, while the second statement modifies that first statement explaining how the Raiton armour amplifies his reflexes to an even further extent to which even the sharingan will lose sight of him.
Now obviously, these are reflexes being talked about here not movement speed per se so we shouldnt really use this to measure there overall bodily speed. However, in terms of reflexes, the statement from shii does not indicate that minatos reflexes are as fast as an amped Raikage. And im only referring to Raiton armour level one not the even further amped level he was at when he dodged amaterasu.
Hence A still will have the bodily speed advantage. This speed advantage however isnt what sways this fight. What tips this fight in his favour is his raiton armour defense which makes minatos primary attack method relatively ineffective. Conversely A wont need to land that many strikes on minato to end him, and unless minato is in a constant state of teleportation then its likely A will land. Moreover a prolonged battle of attrition will favour A anyways since he has tailed beast level chakra.
As for the other part, no i wouldnt say its entirely baseless, just that the base is pretty shallow since it comes from flowery hyperbolic prose and not concrete on panel feats.
Originally posted by Naija boy
I dont think it was ever mentioned that minato could move as fast as an amped A. Ive seen different things in different translations but usually it goes like"The speed of Raikage-sama's nervous system and reflexes... are comparable to those of the Yellow Flash.... These guys are almost keeping up / But since he has the raiton Chakra amplifying his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can keep up"
Another translation i got from manga helpers goes:
"Shii: Raikage-sama's reflexes are on the same level as the late Yellow Flash...I'm impressed those three can even keep up.
But now that his body's surrounded in lightning chakra, even the Sharingan will lose sight of him...
But they're still..."leading me to believe that the first statement was in reference to his nervous system plainly hence the minato comparison, while the second statement modifies that first statement explaining how the Raiton armour amplifies his reflexes to an even further extent to which even the sharingan will lose sight of him.
Now obviously, these are reflexes being talked about here not movement speed per se so we shouldnt really use this to measure there overall bodily speed. However, in terms of reflexes, the statement from shii does not indicate that minatos reflexes are as fast as an amped Raikage. And im only referring to Raiton armour level one not the even further amped level he was at when he dodged amaterasu.
Hence A still will have the bodily speed advantage. This speed advantage however isnt what sways this fight. What tips this fight in his favour is his raiton armour defense which makes minatos primary attack method relatively ineffective. Conversely A wont need to land that many strikes on minato to end him, and unless minato is in a constant state of teleportation then its likely A will land. Moreover a prolonged battle of attrition will favour A anyways since he has tailed beast level chakra.
As for the other part, no i wouldnt say its entirely baseless, just that the base is pretty shallow since it comes from flowery hyperbolic prose and not concrete on panel feats.
Pretty much this. C's quote concerns reflexes, not body speed, and it compares Minato to Raikage when he's not using his Raiton Shroud.
I've seen nothing from Minato to suggest that he is as fast as a Raiton-shroud Raikage, outside of FTG.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree, somewhat. I think you're lowballing the numbers, though. Genjutsu seems to be tied almost directly to intelligence. I literally could not find a variance greater than .5 between intelligence and genjutsu.
Tsunade has a 1.5 variable between Genjutsu and Intelligence, Jiraiya too.
Shikamaru has a 2 difference.
It is possible his intelligence goes purely into time-space jutsu and seal abilities. At the same time it wouldn't surprise me if he was better than that in genjutsu, it's just possible.
So you mean to say that he's only 1 point above Jiraiya? (That still puts him as the strongest single character that has been rated.)
Yea, quite possibly. Jiraiya's super powerful to begin with, and Minato's area of ninjutsu, time-space, is often more overwhelming than Jiraiya's range of genjutsu. So a 1 point difference, with a bigger actual-strength difference, is possible.
What about Hiruzen? He has 0 genjutsu feats yet he's a 5?
Purely because that was made by someone who has behind the scenes info on the subject we lack.
Minato could possibly be a 4 or even 5 for all we know (though I wouldn't think 5 simply because it's never come up), we just simply don't have the info so shouldn't assume it too high.
But we do have comparisons for peole between 12 and 16.
But between 12 and 16, this happens!
They gain 8 inches of height and 20 pounds 😄
That's why they get huge physical stat increases at that point.
When the next databook comes out (it should be coming out this year or next year), we get to see how much each character has grown. Naruto has done a TON since the third databook: learned rasenshuriken (thrown), sage mode and a plethora of sage techs, kyuubi mastery, and so forth.
I hope so! It's been way too long since we got one, and we can get other-Kage stats! Also Konan, maybe some of the zombies, etc..
We know for a fact that Naruto isn't done growing as his father was still several inches (cm) taller.
Well, if he takes after his dad, he might get his height from Kushina 🙂 Stockier build than Minato at the moment. Naruto might grow a little more, but we aren't talking as much in any case.
Minato was still pushing the rasengan into Madara and it wasn't until AFTER that giant massive crater was formed that he "released" it to do its damage and THEN we saw the damage/blood splatter on Madara's back where it hit.
The rasengan itself still does pushing, though. I don't think it's coming from muscle.
It's all strength until he releases it. Minato's crater was vastly superior to Kono's.
Yea, but my point is Konohamaru definitely doesn't have the strength to make any crater at all. It's all rasengan in his case.
Originally posted by Q99
Tsunade has a 1.5 variable between Genjutsu and Intelligence, Jiraiya too.Shikamaru has a 2 difference.
It is possible his intelligence goes purely into time-space jutsu and seal abilities. At the same time it wouldn't surprise me if he was better than that in genjutsu, it's just possible.
Alight, I concede that point. I didn't look at more than 5 or 6 characters so I thought there was a pattern, there.
Anyway, I agree that Minato's intelligence could be focused more towards tactics, long-term strategies, and ninjutsu...rather than a well-rounded shinobi like Hiruzen. I just think that his proficiency in everything and the fact that Madara didn't bother even trying genjutsu on Minato implies that his genjutsu skills have to at least be well above average.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, quite possibly. Jiraiya's super powerful to begin with, and Minato's area of ninjutsu, time-space, is often more overwhelming than Jiraiya's range of genjutsu. So a 1 point difference, with a bigger actual-strength difference, is possible.
This is logical/sound. I still think the rasengan feat puts his strength really high up there, but not quite a 5. I'd say that his rasegan smash feat makes him at least a 4 or 4.5. I'm still not convinced that rasengan does the damage until they release it. They still have to have strength. Naruto was decently strong for a 12-year-old.
Originally posted by Q99
Purely because that was made by someone who has behind the scenes info on the subject we lack.Minato could possibly be a 4 or even 5 for all we know (though I wouldn't think 5 simply because it's never come up), we just simply don't have the info so shouldn't assume it too high.
Well, I think his 5 comes from him being an instructor and a master of all of konoha's non-kekkei genkai jutsus. Still, he has 0 feats with it.
Check out my logic:
Oro was a master at genjutsu: among the best. Yet, he didn't use it against Hiruzen, that I recall. I think he didn't because of Hiruzen's intelligence and proficiency at genjutsu. This is similar to my reasoning with Madara and Minato: Madara will have a natural genjutsu advantage with just about anyone he goes up against because of his eye/s. He also didn't use genjutsu against Minato for a similar reason that Oro didn't: it wouldn't work too well because of Minato's discerning intelligence and skill with genjutsu.
Also, I like your assessment that a 3 in genjutsu is required for jounin and above just for natural defense purposes.
Originally posted by Q99
But between 12 and 16, this happens!They gain 8 inches of height and 20 pounds 😄
That's why they get huge physical stat increases at that point.
But, usually, a young man hits his physical peak at 22 because his metabolism finally slows down enough to start packing on muscle. Naruto does have about 10 more cm to grow, imo. He should gain about 10-15 more kg, as well. His strength is probably well into the 5 level, though, due to his sage mode. He throw that giant beast really really damn far which is comparable in strength to Tsunade's giant bamboo katana feat.
Originally posted by Q99
I hope so! It's been way too long since we got one, and we can get other-Kage stats! Also Konan, maybe some of the zombies, etc..
Yes. I would like to see Madara rated in 3 ways (first hokage battle, Minato battle, and current form), Minato rated, the kage's rated, and all of the other characters rated.
Originally posted by Q99
Well, if he takes after his dad, he might get his height from Kushina 🙂 Stockier build than Minato at the moment. Naruto might grow a little more, but we aren't talking as much in any case.
Naruto looks fairly thin. His mother looked thin, as well. Well, they are all thin, actually. And, yes, Naruto shouldn't grow too much, but it should be enough to grow as tall as his father. From what I could tell, Naruto was the same if not taller than Kushina, implying that he's going to be more like his father (his eyes, hair, etc. "He resembles his father but has his mother's personality" is how jiraiya put it, or something.)
Originally posted by Q99
The rasengan itself still does pushing, though. I don't think it's coming from muscle.
I don't see it that way, obviously. In every instance the rasengan is used, there's a strong push from the user and then they finally release it. I see it as a tech that requires good strength to use for the intial push. Meaning, someone weak like Tenten wouldn't be effective with it.
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but my point is Konohamaru definitely doesn't have the strength to make any crater at all. It's all rasengan in his case.
I disagree: I think he does. My take on his character makes me think that Kishimoto is trying to show him as a strong, gifted character. (Smarted than Naruto but with Naruto's ability to learn high-level techs. It wouldn't be far fetched for a Sarutobi to be like that, for sure.)
Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree... most of these debates should probably be in the vs. forum...
There's actually no versus debate going on, at all. The one and only place most appropriate to talk about Minato's abilities is in the official naruto series thread.
I just got to watching the Sasuke vs Danzo fight animated and I have a few questions bout Danzo's Izanagi powers.
To start if Orochimar gave him the senju DNA so he could control the Sharingans, why wouldn't he take possesion of the sharingan's he had? Assuming he took an Uchiha body, wouldn't he have to take the eyes out and put them in a new body each time he did a transfer? The chakra drain from the Sharingan shouldn't be that bad for Orochimaru should it.
It was also nice to see insane Sasuke animated too!
orochimaru wants a living uchiha body to inhabit, not just the eyes.
he was doing experiments with danzou cause oro was using him as a test bed, he had already made tenzou (yamato) before the uchiha massacre which was like 5 years (max) before the manga started . that's where danzou seemingly acquired all those eyes in his arm.
even kabuto wants the same thing, so i guess he has other method to attain "god level" without senju dna *shrug*
So...
Spoiler:
A is being a dick, even though I can see where he is coming from. He's done pissed Naruto off and plans to actually Kill him when restraining him is possible.
Spoiler:
Bee is cool as ever Motha ****a. And we get to see how he got the name B. Turns out they aren't actually blood brothers.
Spoiler:
A is being really ****ing stupid. You don't want Naruto to run off? Start talking shit about his Dad, that would surely make him understand where you're coming from!
Spoiler:
Though Naruto himself is being completely stupid and unreasonable. So pretty much Tsunade is the only likable character here. Well, I guess Bee is doing a good job mediating.
Spoiler:
Hah, that explains their horrible, horrible naming convention in a fairly cool way! They're sorta ranks-that-become-names. I wonder what this says about C.I wouldn't call Naruto as unreasonable- He'd rather win in a way that has more of the ninja live, even if it's at higher risk. While riskier, the total power does increase this way. Raikage's way does ensure total victory for Madara doesn't happen, but it also means they have less power to prevent an eventual victory.
Some nice high-speed battle going on too. No surprise Minato and A fought in the past.
Originally posted by Q99Spoiler:
Hah, that explains their horrible, horrible naming convention in a fairly cool way! They're sorta ranks-that-become-names. I wonder what this says about C.I wouldn't call Naruto as unreasonable- He'd rather win in a way that has more of the ninja live, even if it's at higher risk. While riskier, the total power does increase this way. Raikage's way does ensure total victory for Madara doesn't happen, but it also means they have less power to prevent an eventual victory.
Some nice high-speed battle going on too. No surprise Minato and A fought in the past.
That he is the 3rd strongest shinobi in the village? Which is pretty sad.
Risks are fine in some cases but this is Madara we're talking about. I completely understand how intimidating a threat the shinobi are facing. Add Kabuto and the zombies in the mix and I can't think of anything Naruto or Bee would have to prevent their eventual capture.
But A is indeed more unreasonable. Attacking Naruto right now would do so much more harm than good. If he were to be killed by Naruto, the SA forces would no longer have a main leader. If he were to kill Naruto, Tsunade and Gaara would lose faith in him as a leader and the forces would be split in two.
Point is, A is an ass.
