The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by Q99
Raw power is one thing he has shown in good amounts, matching and trapping Gaara's sand title wave, making another large barrier against the sand hail, etc..

He's sort of not great as an S-blank, but I think he still probably fits more with them than the S-. He has the same type and scale of power that Gaara does after all.

I don't think the differences between the two would be apparent to most foes- i.e. most people, even high-level foes, would simply find their attacks blocked by gold/sand, then themselves engulfed by a wide area attack.

Ah, but the ranks aren't determined solely on raw power. Otherwise, Guy and the KinGin team would be much higher. 😛

Actually, he is missing something that makes Gaara very dangerous: He, as far as I know, has no automatic defense. He also doesn't seem to be able to use the gold to the same extent as Gaara can use his sand. Sure, they're strong techniques I suppose, but they're lacking diversity to them that Gaara has shown.

Except for the fact that Gaara's dad is in fact very easily touched compared to his son. And I've actually not seen the gold crush the living crud out of someone like Gaara's sand. That and I simply don't think his raw power would be enough to warrant such a high place.

But hey, that's just my two cents on the matter. Your decision of course. 😛

Originally posted by dadudemon
Sasuke doesn't have to do much because gold is among the very best conductors of electricity.

Couple that with the fact that the gold technique is some sort of earth kekkei genkai.

It's Magnet Release. Any proof that Elemental Kekkai Genkai's with Earth as one element, would be susceptible to Lightning?

That said, Kirin would end Gaara's dad.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

Actually, he is missing something that makes Gaara very dangerous: He, as far as I know, has no automatic defense. He also doesn't seem to be able to use the gold to the same extent as Gaara can use his sand. Sure, they're strong techniques I suppose, but they're lacking diversity to them that Gaara has shown.

Except for the fact that Gaara's dad is in fact very easily touched compared to his son. And I've actually not seen the gold crush the living crud out of someone like Gaara's sand. That and I simply don't think his raw power would be enough to warrant such a high place.

He blocked Gaara's sand attacks, so if that dust is compacted enough, I think it could immobilize and crush. Plus it should also be stronger. I don't think he has the same level of control that Gaara has over sand, and he certainly does not have Auto-shield, but his gold dust is 'better' than sand.

He's a Gold dust version of the Third Kazekage, who copied Shukaku with Iron Sand. He's got a Gold-eye version of the Third Eye tech for crying out loud.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, rankings-

Would everyone else agree that the Third and Fourth Kazekage fit well in the S rank? (no +/-)

I'm still undecided, but for now, I think he's S-. He beat back a Bijuu by himself, and that's an uber feat, but he weakened Shukaku's control over the sand, and he's not as good as Gaara.

Dadudemon
Danzo is more than fast enough to avoid.

Then there's the plethora of techniques he can use.

What incredibly uber speed feats has Danzo shown? Nothing Gai high (ditto Kisame, and while Kakashi's higher I don't think it's enough for a blitz either).

Sans-eyes Danzo's got vacuum/wind, touch-seals, and summon. His vacuum attacks don't have the power to pierce a big gold cloud, the seals require touch, and I don't think Baku'll do either.

Also, what makes you think he's so weak against speed?

Every attack that's grabbed 4th Kaze has also grabbed the Raikage and Mizukage too, and he blocked Gaara's high-speed hail no problem. It is purely trickery that's worked against him.

I don't see why Danzo/Kisame speed should be a problem. Gai and Mifune are *so* fast they may be a problem, but they're uber speed specialists, and 4th still hasn't shown a particular problem handling speed. Mifune especially, who hasn't shown something like the Gates that could knock gold holding him away, seems to me like he'd have a good chance of being trapped by a wide-area attack.

dadudemon
Sasuke doesn't have to do much because gold is among the very best conductors of electricity.

Yea, that works in Gaaradad's advantage. He's not touching the gold when he manipulates it so it'll conduct through the gold, not to him.

Even kirin should be solidly defended against because there's so much gold and he can have it connect to the ground, giving it an alternate route away from him.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ah, but the ranks aren't determined solely on raw power. Otherwise, Guy and the KinGin team would be much higher. 😛

I will note on Guy, his issue is that he can only bust out his super high power move once in a fight, and it has backlash. If he could throw his top stuff out without that factor, he could be S.

Kin or Gin change form situationally, not at will, and without it they're a fair bit less powerful.

Gaaradad can throw a Gold Tsunami as an opener without being tired in the least.

Actually, he is missing something that makes Gaara very dangerous: He, as far as I know, has no automatic defense. He also doesn't seem to be able to use the gold to the same extent as Gaara can use his sand. Sure, they're strong techniques I suppose, but they're lacking diversity to them that Gaara has shown.

While it may not have been automatic, he did guard both himself and the other Kage from the Sand Hail, protecting a wide area.

His defense is still very strong, even if it's not unthinking.

Except for the fact that Gaara's dad is in fact very easily touched compared to his son. And I've actually not seen the gold crush the living crud out of someone like Gaara's sand. That and I simply don't think his raw power would be enough to warrant such a high place.

Note he wasn't touched by direct attack very easily, Gaara grabbed him with a misdirection, his sand hail was just to distract from the sand hands that Gaara had sneakily snuck free of the gold.

Raw power, he was able to match up to sand tsunami.

But hey, that's just my two cents on the matter. Your decision of course. 😛

Well, I am open to arguments and if the consensus is S-, I'll go for that (even though I think he's high for an S-). Like others have said, you can have raw power of a rank but not the skill or other factors and thus be a bit lower, but Gaara seems to be winning because he's doing even better than we've seen from him before, rather than Gaaradad being bad or weak.

Gaaradad's still an army killer with high offense and defense who, like Gaara, can fight by using high-power techniques in a repeated fashion from what we've seen.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He blocked Gaara's sand attacks, so if that dust is compacted enough, I think it could immobilize and crush. Plus it should also be stronger. I don't think he has the same level of control that Gaara has over sand, and he certainly does not have Auto-shield, but his gold dust is 'better' than sand.

He's a Gold dust version of the Third Kazekage, who copied Shukaku with Iron Sand. He's got a Gold-eye version of the Third Eye tech for crying out loud.

Better? You mean heavier good sir. Which means his technique is fat and worthy of contempt. 😛

A copy of a copy? Gets worse the lower you go down. Considering that Suna still considers the 3rd Kazekage to be stronger.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v30/c266/13.html

That he could be defeated by Sasori proves that power isn't everything. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

That he could be defeated by Sasori proves that power isn't everything. 😛

Anyone can be assassinated 🙂

Sasori's a rather tricky fighter.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Better? You mean heavier good sir. Which means his technique is fat and worthy of contempt. 😛

A copy of a copy? Gets worse the lower you go down. Considering that Suna still considers the 3rd Kazekage to be stronger.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v30/c266/13.html

That he could be defeated by Sasori proves that power isn't everything. 😛

No, I mean outright better in comparison to Sand, in most cases.
Gaara's winning because he was able to direct his father's attention to the Sand coming from the top, while he manipulated the Sand they were standing on. In addition, his control over Sand seems to be better than that of his father's with Gold Dust, and he has Auto-shield for defense.

Nah, another copy of the original. 313
Besides, I'd wager the 4th could use Iron Sand as well if he wanted. vin

I thought he kidnapped/assassinated the Third? Doesn't mean that the 3rd was beaten in a straight fight. The fact that Iron Sand could clog up Puppets means that Sasori either tricked the Kazekage with a poison dart or some such, or he outright assassinated him.

Originally posted by Q99
What incredibly uber speed feats has Danzo shown? Nothing Gai high (ditto Kisame, and while Kakashi's higher I don't think it's enough for a blitz either).

Sans-eyes Danzo's got vacuum/wind, touch-seals, and summon. His vacuum attacks don't have the power to pierce a big gold cloud, the seals require touch, and I don't think Baku'll do either.

Yea, that works in Gaaradad's advantage. He's not touching the gold when he manipulates it so it'll conduct through the gold, not to him.

Even kirin should be solidly defended against because there's so much gold and he can have it connect to the ground, giving it an alternate route away from him.

Indeed. Speed tends to be overplayed nowadays. Most of the Jounin-level+ ninja have little to no problems reacting to characters with Kakashi-level speed.

It could blow all the Gold Dust away possibly. It inhales air with its mouth, and exhales air with its trunk at the same time. So direct the trunk towards the Dust, and boom.

Not when Sasuke can direct Kirin to any point of his choosing, and Gaara's dad cannot react to Kirin.

Not when Sasuke can direct Kirin to any point of his choosing, and Gaara's dad cannot react to Kirin.

I'm thinking a nice big gold dust dome. Gaaradad can't react to the attack itself, but there's still some warning an attack will come.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm thinking a nice big gold dust dome. Gaaradad can't react to the attack itself, but there's still some warning an attack will come.

Then it becomes a waiting game, in which Yondy has the advantage if he can wait for an hour or so, enough for the storm clouds to disappear.

Or that instead of being conducted to the ground safely, it blows away the ground and Yondy after the conduction.
Also, nothing on the Baku blowing away all the gold dust? 😛

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's Magnet Release. Any proof that Elemental Kekkai Genkai's with Earth as one element, would be susceptible to Lightning?

Any proof that "Elemental Kekkai Genkai's with Earth as one element" is immune to lightning?

The proof:

Gold is among the best conductors of electricity.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
That said, Kirin would end Gaara's dad.

That's right, b*tch. 313

Originally posted by Q99
What incredibly uber speed feats has Danzo shown? Nothing Gai high (ditto Kisame, and while Kakashi's higher I don't think it's enough for a blitz either).

Sans-eyes Danzo's got vacuum/wind, touch-seals, and summon. His vacuum attacks don't have the power to pierce a big gold cloud, the seals require touch, and I don't think Baku'll do either.

We already know what Danzo can do. No need to rehash..but I will say this:

He wins simply because he's faster.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, what makes you think he's so weak against speed?

Cause he does not have an auto-defense shield and his "gold "appears to be slower.

Gaara was/is weak against speed and penetration attacks.

Originally posted by Q99
Every attack that's grabbed 4th Kaze has also grabbed the Raikage and Mizukage too, and he blocked Gaara's high-speed hail no problem. It is purely trickery that's worked against him.

We have zero speed feats for the others. We can, however, show quite clearly that Yondaime Kazakage is definitly not going to be able to avoid speedy people...which is just about every decent jonin.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't see why Danzo/Kisame speed should be a problem. Gai and Mifune are *so* fast they may be a problem, but they're uber speed specialists, and 4th still hasn't shown a particular problem handling speed. Mifune especially, who hasn't shown something like the Gates that could knock gold holding him away, seems to me like he'd have a good chance of being trapped by a wide-area attack.

I do: when you're a one-trick pony with even less speed and versitility than Gaara, it's tough to take on any opponents that are fast, have various techniques, and can avoid all of your attacks.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, that works in Gaaradad's advantage. He's not touching the gold when he manipulates it so it'll conduct through the gold, not to him.

Even kirin should be solidly defended against because there's so much gold and he can have it connect to the ground, giving it an alternate route away from him.

It doesn't. When is the last time you saw lightning hurt the user "supplying" it? By your logic, anytime Kakashi or Sasuke use Chidori or Lightning Blade, they are severely electrocuting themselves. A is killing himself. B paralyzed himself, and so forth.

Lightning techniques just don't work that way.

Also, in order for him to do that, he'd have to be fast.

And, baseless, but I think that lightning would null/stop the gold sand in its tracks similarly to Sasuke being able to punch through Gaara's ultimate defense but much more significantly due to it being a very powerful conductor.

Also, Gaara is much better than his father because: Wherever Gaara goes, he can make sand out of just about anything.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Any proof that "Elemental Kekkai Genkai's with Earth as one element" is immune to lightning?

The proof:

Gold is among the best conductors of electricity.

That's right, b*tch. 313

It doesn't. When is the last time you saw lightning hurt the user "supplying" it? By your logic, anytime Kakashi or Sasuke use Chidori or Lightning Blade, they are severely electrocuting themselves. A is killing himself. B paralyzed himself, and so forth.

Eh? I said 'susceptible', not 'immune'.
Since when is gold's status as a great electrical conductor (if it is one in Naruto-verse), proof that the technique used to manipulate it is an Elemental Kekkei Genkai with Earth as one element and that all techs amongst said Kekkei Genkai, would be 'weak' to Lightning?

Kirin would end any or most ninja without Susano'o or Izanagi, so its a given.

Which is quite weird, considering we've seen that Raiton techs can electrocute individuals. Sasuke ran the Chidori's current through himself, and he took damage from it. Killer Bee got shocked by Sasuke's Chidori, and Darui intended to electrocute/shock Sasuke. Of course, the latter two times had Water involved, and when A grabbed Sasuke (proof that A is homo BTW vin), Sasuke never got electrocuted.

Originally posted by Q99
Anyone can be assassinated 🙂

Sasori's a rather tricky fighter.

Kidnapped.

And yes, he is.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
No, I mean outright better in comparison to Sand, in most cases.
Gaara's winning because he was able to direct his father's attention to the Sand coming from the top, while he manipulated the Sand they were standing on. In addition, his control over Sand seems to be better than that of his father's with Gold Dust, and he has Auto-shield for defense.

?

There is nothing it has done that Sand hasn't. It's heavier than Sand but the Sand has far and away better feats.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Nah, another copy of the original. 313
Besides, I'd wager the 4th could use Iron Sand as well if he wanted. vin

He might but not stated. Know who else can use Iron Sand whenever he wants? Sasori. And look at his rank. awesome

Edit: Crap. Could have sworn he'd been placed in S-. Feel dumb now. Ah well, Sasori is more awesome than Gaara's dad. And has more variety going for him.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I thought he kidnapped/assassinated the Third? Doesn't mean that the 3rd was beaten in a straight fight. The fact that Iron Sand could clog up Puppets means that Sasori either tricked the Kazekage with a poison dart or some such, or he outright assassinated him.

The 3rd was an awesome ninja. Only lame ninja get assassinated without putting up a fight.

And it was probably poison. 😮

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel

?

There is nothing it has done that Sand hasn't. It's heavier than Sand but the Sand has far and away better feats.

Incorrect. It has neutralized Sand. vin

We see that Sand is < Gold Dust in a direct match-up, and that Yondy can move his Gold Dust in nearly the same way that Gaara moves his massive Sand masses. In a direct match-up, Yondy will win, even if his level of control is lower; to the point where he can stop Shukaku.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He might but not stated. Know who else can use Iron Sand whenever he wants? Sasori. And look at his rank. awesome

He has magnet-release powers though, so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use Iron Sand.

He needs to use a puppet for it. Manipulating Iron Sand by yourself > Manipulating a puppet to manipulate Iron Sand.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The 3rd was an awesome ninja. Only lame ninja get assassinated without putting up a fight.

And it was probably poison. 😮

Eh, you are partly right. 3rd got kidnapped and assassinated without putting up a fight. awesome

~ Also, 3rd > Gaara? vin

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Only lame ninja get assassinated without putting up a fight.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Incorrect. It has neutralized Sand. vin

We see that Sand is < Gold Dust in a direct match-up, and that Yondy can move his Gold Dust in nearly the same way that Gaara moves his massive Sand masses. In a direct match-up, Yondy will win, even if his level of control is lower; to the point where he can stop Shukaku.

Because it is heavier.

Does not make it better. Makes it a counter to Sand.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He has magnet-release powers though, so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use Iron Sand.

He needs to use a puppet for it. Manipulating Iron Sand by yourself > Manipulating a puppet to manipulate Iron Sand.

Probably because him being able to use Iron Sand doesn't make sense in context. The 3rd was the strongest Kazekage by far apparently yet the 4th would be able to use his technique?

Ah, but Iron Sand with poison and being controlled by a puppet is>Iron Sand manipulated otherwise.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Eh, you are partly right. 3rd got kidnapped and assassinated without putting up a fight. awesome

~ Also, 3rd > Gaara? vin

Nah. Sasori broke in, killed him after a fight, and then kidnapped him. Probably. vin

Actually, it's quite possible. Granted, we haven't seen the 3rd in actual action but going by wank the Kazekage scale would be 3rd> Gaara> 4th.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Like Gaara's dad?

Exactly.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Any proof that "Elemental Kekkai Genkai's with Earth as one element" is immune to lightning?

One, we don't know it's components. Two, the kekkei genkai is the magnetism controlling the substance, not the substance itself.

The most likely element in it is probably lightning considering how magnetism works, which would speak against vulnerability. If anything it's probably Lightning/Earth.

The proof:

Gold is among the best conductors of electricity.

Which makes it better for defense against lightning. It means lightning will go through the gold rather than it's original target.

Water isn't poor against lightning either.

We already know what Danzo can do. No need to rehash..but I will say this:

He wins simply because he's faster.

Uh, no? Danzo isn't particularly a speedy fighter to begin with, and even the 3.5 rated Hidan can keep up with Kakashi, who's faster than Danzo.

I don't think Danzo necessarily has any speed edge, and definitely not a blitz-level edge.

Cause he does not have an auto-defense shield and his "gold "appears to be slower.

No, it hasn't moved any slower that we've seen. Gaara has only gotten past by trickery, not speed.

He blocked Gaara's higher speed sand attacks just fine.

Gaara was/is weak against speed and penetration attacks.

Was early in part one, but he was already able to defend against the rather fast Kimimaro by the end of it.

Gold is denser and thus should be better against penetration attacks.

We have zero speed feats for the others. We can, however, show quite clearly that Yondaime Kazakage is definitly not going to be able to avoid speedy people...which is just about every decent jonin.

No... no we can't. Why do you keep saying this when he hasn't demonstrated any lack of speed?

It doesn't. When is the last time you saw lightning hurt the user "supplying" it? By your logic, anytime Kakashi or Sasuke use Chidori or Lightning Blade, they are severely electrocuting themselves. A is killing himself. B paralyzed himself, and so forth.

Lightning techniques just don't work that way.

What... does that have to do with what I said?

I never said the lightning user would be hurt. I'd say the gold would conduct the attack away from the defender. The attack will naturally go to the gold and not the Kazekage, he can steer it's course to miss, hit the ground or what have you.

And, baseless, but I think that lightning would null/stop the gold sand in its tracks similarly to Sasuke being able to punch through Gaara's ultimate defense but much more significantly due to it being a very powerful conductor.

Gaara's sand could be punched through because it's earth, and the electricity will tightly drill through it.

Gold being a conductor, the attacks should spread through it more, lowering the penetration. It's like water- water jutsu is not disadvantaged against lightning and it's an excellent conductor as well.

Also, Gaara is much better than his father because: Wherever Gaara goes, he can make sand out of just about anything.

The 4th Kazekage made his sand basically just appear at the start of this fight. Either he's got it in storage seals, or he's actually making it.

Either way, it doesn't seem to be a problem, when he can use enough to cancel a Sand Tsunami on the fly.

TheAuraAngel

Probably because him being able to use Iron Sand doesn't make sense in context. The 3rd was the strongest Kazekage by far apparently yet the 4th would be able to use his technique?

We know the 3rd was the strongest, we don't know by how much. And we don't know if they'll keep saying he was the strongest if Gaara says around 😉

The 4th was strong enough to still be considered a strategic asset to keep other villages on their toes in place of a strong jinchuuriki.

He might but not stated. Know who else can use Iron Sand whenever he wants? Sasori. And look at his rank.

Edit: Crap. Could have sworn he'd been placed in S-. Feel dumb now. Ah well, Sasori is more awesome than Gaara's dad. And has more variety going for him.

Sasori's a rather strong S at that, IMO. In no small part due to the 3rd puppet (without which he'd still be full-S, but lower in full-S)

Originally posted by Q99
We know the 3rd was the strongest, we don't know by how much. And we don't know if they'll keep saying he was the strongest if Gaara says around 😉

The 4th was strong enough to still be considered a strategic asset to keep other villages on their toes in place of a strong jinchuuriki.

Sasori's a rather strong S at that, IMO. In no small part due to the 3rd puppet (without which he'd still be full-S, but lower in full-S)

By far. BY FAR! Clearly he is above all the other ninja in the Narutoverse! And yeah, he probably wouldn't have said anything if Gaara was around. 😛

And dumb enough to activate the Shukaku in the village. Granted he evacuated it but you gonna think it caused a lot of property damage.

Indeed. Cause he was that awesome.

And I hate Kankuro more now.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And dumb enough to activate the Shukaku in the village. Granted he evacuated it but you gonna think it caused a lot of property damage.

Indeed. Cause he was that awesome.

And I hate Kankuro more now.

Well aren't Suna's bulding structure predominately covered and compossed of sand? Can't be that hard to rebuild the stuff right since it's a miracle they were able to establish those to begin with?

Which make me even more angry as to why Kabuto didn't give Sasori time to make a puppet...or get his 100 puppets back assuming Kankuro didn't take them.

At least he's been reduced to fodder as of late...that's something right?

Gold-Dust magnetism is a stupid power no matter how you slice it....at least IMO.

Which make me even more angry as to why Kabuto didn't give Sasori time to make a puppet...

The war was in a single day, not exactly worth delaying to better equip one fighter who's still capable without.

They did give him an immortal puppet in Shin, and set him up to gain captured people as puppets.

or get his 100 puppets back assuming Kankuro didn't take them.

Kankuro took his body puppet and that one held all the rest, so yea, he definitely took them all.

Chiyo and Sakura probably gave the Suna Puppet Corps an armory it could only dream about before in that one battle 🙂

Gold-Dust magnetism is a stupid power no matter how you slice it....at least IMO.

Gold is diamagnetic.

Originally posted by Q99
One, we don't know it's components. Two, the kekkei genkai is the magnetism controlling the substance, not the substance itself.

The most likely element in it is probably lightning considering how magnetism works, which would speak against vulnerability. If anything it's probably Lightning/Earth.

Ah, I misunderstood his first statement.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Any proof that "Elemental Kekkai Genkai's with Earth as one element" is immune to lightning?

Burden of proof is on you mio amico, as you made the statement. You have to prove that Magnet Release has Earth as one element, and that Magnet-Release techs themselves are susceptible to Lightning-release.

Originally posted by Q99
Which makes it better for defense against lightning. It means lightning will go through the gold rather than it's original target.

Water isn't poor against lightning either.