The Official Naruto series Thread

To sum it up without rudeness: Madara is fast. Minato is far faster than Konan. Madara traded blows with Minato. The entire fight just is out of place with Konan and I see it as a necessary evil because Konan was such a good/awesome supporting character. Kishimoto could not have her go down like a punk b*tch.

But that's not how speed works in Naruto. Someone who's slower can keep up with someone faster if there isn't *that* much difference.

Minato is faster than Madara, Madara can keep up with the aid of phasing tricks and sharingan.

Madara is faster than Konan, but his attacks take enough time that she's able to keep up with volume attacks and sudden tag explosion.

Statwise, I'd say Minato's a 5 in speed, Madara's a 4.5, and Konan's a 4.

Also you've yet to show that Konan is all that slow. You're saying it's "Out of Place" but it's the only time we really get to see her fight for real. Konan was never demonstrated to be particularly slow at any point, so why are you so sure there's that much of a gap?

Torune and Fu were also able to keep up with Madara to an extent and they aren't the fastest ever (though definitely competently fast, probably 4s). They just lacked the jutsu to do much about it.

I feel her powers are overblown and Madara could have ended the fight as soon as she uttered a single word that confirmed Madara's suspicion that was was a taitor. As soon as that happened...Madara has both the speed and the technique to insta-win against her. She was already making eye contact...so why didn't he use the almighty genjutsu?

Madara probably doesn't have Tsukuyomi-like genjutsu. When he did a genjutsu, to find out what he needed, it was after she was stabbed (only possible when not in paper form) and exhausted, which'll lower anyone's genjutsu resistance. And the one he used seemed to take a few moments while he was holding her by the throat, not an instant one.

So he did it when he had an opportunity, and not before when he didn't. Tada.

In no other manga do I find so much CIS/PIS in the characters with so much apologetics occuring for it.

That's simply because it's not CIS/PIS here.

Now, if you talk about, say, Sasuke escaping via Manda, that's PIS.

But "Character who we haven't really seen fight is capable of keeping up with a pretty fast character," is not CIS/PIS, it's establishing a previously mostly unestablished parameter.

Damn!

I mean, damn! I hope A can be as badass as his dad one day!

Spoiler:
Damn. No EMS and Sasuke this chapter.

The Third's uber. Easily more powerful than his son, and he managed to tank Rasenshuriken. Means that highest level Fuuton techs are useless now. Plus he faced down a wild Hachibi by himself and only got his trademark scar in return. That's enough for Naruto to question whether or not he's human.

He uses a tech that is just like Raikiri & Chidori, but far superior. Name's too long for me to give a crap about, so I'll just call it 4000 Years of Pain or Hellbringer. awesome
He takes out a bunch of ninja in an instant with 3000 Years of Pain, and Naruto has his ass saved by Dodai.

Naruto then uses the Bijuu Rasengan after learning that the Hachibi was the only thing that wounded the Third Raikage.

Oh, and Dodai can also use Lava. Fire, Earth & likely Lightning as well.
Damn Lava-release is common, relatively speaking. Plus it is pretty versatile.

Hmm, Q99, should we bump up the Third to S+?

This chapter was awesome. I like the Cloud Ninja. They are just so damn broken at everything.

I would say that A is faster but the Sandaime Raikage appears to have a more specialized/high power attack. This makes me think: how would Sandaime Raikage match up against Kirby Pain? Would any of his techs even do any good?

Decent chapter. But I wanted to see Naruto do better against the S. Raikage. 🙁 Can't catch a break with my fanboy character.

Originally posted by Q99
That's simply because it's not CIS/PIS here.

Now, if you talk about, say, Sasuke escaping via Manda, that's PIS.

But "Character who we haven't really seen fight is capable of keeping up with a pretty fast character," is not CIS/PIS, it's establishing a previously mostly unestablished parameter.

The rest is circles and I've covered it quite thoroughly.

However, this point is where we are getting stuck.

It's CIS/PIS in more than just the 3 ways I've outlined. You're smart: I bet you that you could think of even more than I brought up...if you weren't in love with Konan so much. uhuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
This chapter was awesome. I like the Cloud Ninja. They are just so damn broken at everything.

I would say that A is faster but the Sandaime Raikage appears to have a more specialized/high power attack. This makes me think: how would Sandaime Raikage match up against Kirby Pain? Would any of his techs even do any good?

Decent chapter. But I wanted to see Naruto do better against the S. Raikage. 🙁 Can't catch a break with my fanboy character.

Don't forget his durability. Even though he had regen to help him, he was left pretty intact after being hit by Rasenshuriken, and his Raiton Shroud did not help a lot with that. Plus he took on the Hachibi by himself.

Naruto is the only ninja capable of sensing the transformed White Zetsu, dodged A's punch, showed off a number of Rasengan variants, & helped beat Muu. He's also about to pull off the Bijuu Rasengan.
Dude has had more than enough breaks.

3rd seems like he's a lot stronger than 4th!

Also that answers some questions on whether lightning armor amps durability (well, assuming the armor is responsible at least. But it seems likely as Temari was cutting him up before he raised it before).

Originally posted by dadudemon

It's CIS/PIS in more than just the 3 ways I've outlined. You're smart: I bet you that you could think of even more than I brought up...if you weren't in love with Konan so much. uhuh

Dude, stop it.

Konan didn't show deficient speed against Jiraiya (blocked his fireball at close range), she didn't against Madara. Konan simply hasn't shown the problems you claim.

Heck, Konan has only really gotten in one big fight against a foe she really wanted strongly to kill, so how can the most clear demonstration of what her power really is be wrong?

You're trying to force a problem them accusing bias when none us are agreeing with her.

Effing hell! Raikage is a damn monster! He is one of the few characters that I'd wager could beat Minato!

Solid S+!

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Effing hell! Raikage is a damn monster! He is one of the few characters that I'd wager could beat Minato!

Solid S+!

Well, rasengan wouldn't work, but maybe Minato could pull something with seals jutsu.

Also, is it just me, or does 2nd Raikage seem totally naff in comparison to his successors? 🙂 I mean, 2nd had problems with Gin and Kin. 3rd apparently was capable of taking on 8-tails *without* a backup squad, and only once got a scar in his life. 4th isn't quite that awesome, but is still pretty awesome.

Yeah, Minato would have to outsmart him. He's still faster, as far as I can tell, but he doesn't have anything on Raikage in pure power!

And yes, the second is lame. That's why Kabuto didn't revive him!

No Mizukage or Sasuke though. Sad.

Oh and in regards to the Konan argument, I could make a counter argument in my sleep cause it would be that easy. But I'm mesmorized by badass Raikage....so maybe later.

I like the sensible use of group-earth jutsu.

Btw: Lava kekkei genkai shows up again.

Originally posted by Q99
3rd seems like he's a lot stronger than 4th!

Also that answers some questions on whether lightning armor amps durability (well, assuming the armor is responsible at least. But it seems likely as Temari was cutting him up before he raised it before).

Far far stronger. He has far greater durability & stamina, better techs, and is likely stronger as well, with roughly the same level of reactions (ignoring A's Max Raiton Shroud). Aura's convinced he's S+, while I think he is as well.

Nah, his Lightning armor probably had nothing to do with him tanking the Rasenshuriken. It was a powerful cutting Wind tech, which would have gone past the shroud easily.

Also, do you guys think that Hellbringer/4000 Years of Pain is just like Raikiri/Chidori? The mechanic's the same, and Kishi obviously just thought of this tech recently, but you think A would know that a thrust with Raiton chakra to increase the penetration would be his father's trick, and not Kakashi's.

Originally posted by Q99
Dude, stop it.

Konan didn't show deficient speed against Jiraiya (blocked his fireball at close range), she didn't against Madara. Konan simply hasn't shown the problems you claim.

Heck, Konan has only really gotten in one big fight against a foe she really wanted strongly to kill, so how can the most clear demonstration of what her power really is be wrong?

You're trying to force a problem them accusing bias when none us are agreeing with her.

Well Chidori and Hellbringer do differ in the way the user holds his hand. So that could justify why A thought Kakashi's trick instead of his dads. Besides, that would be where Sasuke learned it from anyway. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well Chidori and Hellbringer do differ in the way the user holds his hand. So that could justify why A thought Kakashi's trick instead of his dads. Besides, that would be where Sasuke learned it from anyway. 😛

Chidori is less versatile in it's main form but I think Sasuke has streamlined it. And Raikiri might arguably be better. It did split real lightning in half apparently.

Course, 3rd Raikage would eat Kakashi for breakfast either way.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Well Chidori and Hellbringer do differ in the way the user holds his hand. So that could justify why A thought Kakashi's trick instead of his dads. Besides, that would be where Sasuke learned it from anyway. 😛

He's pretty stupid then if the way the hand is used is what caused him to think of Kakashi instead of the father that probably whooped his ass over and over.

Yeah, but A doesn't know where Sasuke learned his techs. 😛

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Chidori is less versatile in it's main form but I think Sasuke has streamlined it. And Raikiri might arguably be better. It did split real lightning in half apparently.

Course, 3rd Raikage would eat Kakashi for breakfast either way.

Hyperbole. Just like the Kyuubi being able to flatten mountains with one tail.
There's no way a slightly better version of Chidori is > 4000 Years of Pain. awesome

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well for one, if it was his father's tech, it probably would have gone right through A. Chidori sucks in comparison.

Yeah, but his father had the benefit of having an amount of chakra and speed comparable to A, along with stupidly high durability, thus being able to put much more chakra into his hand. So really, I think it's the same tech, just at a much higher level than either Raikiri or Chidori.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Yeah, but his father had the benefit of having an amount of chakra and speed comparable to A, along with stupidly high durability, thus being able to put much more chakra into his hand. So really, I think it's the same tech, just at a much higher level than either Raikiri or Chidori.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He's pretty stupid then if the way the hand is used is what caused him to think of Kakashi instead of the father that probably whooped his ass over and over.

Yeah, but A doesn't know where Sasuke learned his techs. 😛

Hyperbole. Just like the Kyuubi being able to flatten mountains with one tail.
There's no way a slightly better version of Chidori is > 4000 Years of Pain. awesome

Ninja need to notice details. 😛

He got info from Konoha. Since Kakashi used that technique, assuming Sasuke learned it from him is the next obvious step of logic. Give A some credit at least. 😛

Guy didn't say it like it was hyperbole so I dunno. Sharingan can react to lightning. awesome

We just saw it. Quit wanking already. 😛

Though if he goes down to one finger, I wonder how strong it would be? 😮

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ninja need to notice details. 😛

He got info from Konoha. Since Kakashi used that technique, assuming Sasuke learned it from him is the next obvious step of logic. Give A some credit at least. 😛

Guy didn't say it like it was hyperbole so I dunno. Sharingan can react to lightning. awesome

We just saw it. Quit wanking already. 😛

Though if he goes down to one finger, I wonder how strong it would be? 😮

A isn't the type to notice details 😛.

Nah, he is stupid.

Itachi's Sharingan at least, not Kakashi's vin

4000 years of Pain >> Double Lariat awesome

Enough to break through the Yata shield. vin

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, just like how Raikiri and Chidori are actually the same tech. But those are literally the exact same things. This changes it up a bit by charging the fingers rather than the whole hand.

He still has chakra built around his hand, but yeah, most of it is concentrated on the fingers.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Far far stronger. He has far greater durability & stamina, better techs, and is likely stronger as well, with roughly the same level of reactions (ignoring A's Max Raiton Shroud). Aura's convinced he's S+, while I think he is as well.

My guess at this point is A is probably faster and more Taijutsu focused since he relies just on that more (this attack of his probably works best with speed just like the chidori and raikiri do, but doesn't resemble A's rush's speed), while 3rd is well-rounded and has stronger jutsu.

He has powerful range (black lightning), powerful melee attack (Hellbringer), powerful speed, and yet with all that it's his endurance and toughness that get singled out.

Nah, his Lightning armor probably had nothing to do with him tanking the Rasenshuriken. It was a powerful cutting Wind tech, which would have gone past the shroud easily.

True. I think he's the toughest ninja we've seen.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not to mention, there is a difference between dodging a straight attack like some Shuriken, and a situation where you are surrounded and under attack from all directions. I don't know how Madara was supposedly going to dodge all the paper; what direction was there to escape in? Phasing is the only option and I think it progressed in a very logical way.

Yea, it's kinda like... sand techniques aren't the highest speed around, but sand people have caught many fast foes since you can surround someone.