The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your entire line or reasoning fails if you assume that Madara is alive and can cut his hair from time to time.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And, about the eye: Itachi may have thought it was Madara's eye but it was actually someone else's, thus throwing off our entire assumption about Tobi having Madara's eye.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, there's a glaring problem with your reasoning:

1. He was very similar to Naruto. Incompetent? Possibly...but he had potential from the moment he unlocked his sharingan (as do all Uchiha).

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. Notice that the wrinkles were only ever shown on the side of his face that was pinned?

Originally posted by dadudemon
3. Had he actually be crushed, he would have died instantly. He was pinned, not crushed. But the pinning was enough to worry about his life. Probably had something to do with...breathing? 😄

The entire assumption is that Obito somehow escaped with help or something...and then got medical attention.

If it wasn't plausible, then we would not have entertained it.

Besides, how do you explain that Tobi freed nine-tails fifteen years ago and Obito supposedly died ten years ago. Does Obito know the secret to time-travel according to your hypothesis as well? How does this make sense in your head?

I've given up arguing with those who lack common sense but...

Obito died before the Kyuubi attack. Whatever random number was stated is disputed by the actual events of the manga.

That said, Obito is not as tall as Tobi. He would have to be in order to be Tobi. So he cannot be Tobi.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Obito died before the Kyuubi attack.

Well, at a closer examination we can see that it says "around 10 years ago" and this was told in-between the time-skip. Meaning that Naruto was anywhere from twelve to fifteen years of age.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Whatever random number was stated is disputed by the actual events of the manga.

Originally posted by Astner
Reasoning for what? What argument did I lay out? None! I simply posted interesting scans with a few notes. I really don't get why, but you're constantly trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing.

So you think I have a personal vendetta against you?

Pretentious much? (yes, yes you are...very much so)

But, let's pretend that you did not say that there's a significant difference between the two versions of "madara" you presented.

Let's also pretend that I did not directly argue against that exact point by saying Madara could not cut his hair...ever.

At least you'll feel better about it, right? At least you can pretend that I did not directly reply against a point you made.

Originally posted by Astner
That's funny because in the panel I posted, you see, he says and I quote: "I assume that he set things up so the sight of my sharingan would ..."

That's funny, because that doesn't contradict what I said, even a little bit.

Why don't you re-read what I said and then realize why you missed my point entirely:

"And, about the eye: Itachi may have thought it was Madara's eye but it was actually someone else's, thus throwing off our entire assumption about Tobi having Madara's eye."

Because I know you'll miss the entire point:

Tobi is claiming to be Madara.

Tobi called that eye "his" eye.

Not once do I see him say that that is HIS/Madara's eye.

In fact, not a single quote exists that has Tobi saying, "this eye is my eye that I was born with and I am Madara". What we do know is Tobi suggested that Itachi setup the amaterasu to go off at the sight of that particular eye: not necessarily Madara's eye...but that particular eye in Tobi's eye socket on Tobi's right side. THAT'S what Itachi did.

That's what you're missing.

You simply didn't get that.

That's fine: I understand that points go cleanly over your head at times.

Originally posted by Astner
Based on what? Not all Uchiha were competent. Kakashi didn't make note of Obito's potential while Sasuke's and Naruto's were evident to him.

Specifically because no one made mention of Obito's potential, if applied, is automatic conclusion that he's a putz? Should you not conclude otherwise since he unlocked his Sharingan shortly thereafter and the author has a penchant for idiot characters actually being awesome (his main character, to be exact).

Furthermore, your comparison you did with chakra potential is actually quite a non sequitur argument.

Kakashi is definitely the more intelligent and versitile ninja even compared to the current version of Naruto. He is a more adept and capable ninja than Naruto because there's more to being a ninja than how fast or how destructive your techs are.

So even your "counter" wasn't even good enough.

Originally posted by Astner
What are you talking about? Obito's entire body was eventually crushed!

You see, you still have not proven anything.

You just don't realize that.

Again, this:

"The entire assumption is that Obito somehow escaped with help or something...and then got medical attention."

In other words, you just simply don't get it.

Originally posted by Astner
He was crushed and if he survived Minato would've probably dug him out as well.

The assumption is:

"The entire assumption is that Obito somehow escaped with help or something...and then got medical attention."

Next, explain how Minato would even know if Obito was alive in that rubble IF Minato did not have a byakugan?

Originally posted by Astner
Besides, how do you explain that Tobi freed nine-tails fifteen years ago and Obito supposedly died ten years ago. Does Obito know the secret to time-travel according to your hypothesis as well? How does this make sense in your head?

I guess you haven't been reading this thread or other websites.

What part about a "space-time jutsu" do you not understand? How did it even make sense in your head to assume the current Tobi being toted as Obito did not have some sort of logical explanation for why Obito could be Tobi?

Additionally, that version of Tobi/Madara was 15 years ago, right?

That would put that version of Tobi at...get this...drum roll pleas.......14-17 years old (we do not know how many years that event occured after Kakashi Gaiden but based on the ages...it looks to be about 2-5 years after Kakashi Gaiden).

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
That said, Obito is not as tall as Tobi. He would have to be in order to be Tobi. So he cannot be Tobi.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That would put that version of Tobi at...get this...drum roll pleas.......14-17 years old (we do not know how many years that event occured after Kakashi Gaiden but based on the ages...it looks to be about 2-5 years after Kakashi Gaiden).

In other words, Obito could have grown in the 2-5 years since he was 12.

Yes, I'm saying that he could have grown to be as tall as Madara.

The wrinkles on the right side of Tobi's face (the ones we got to see) could be scarring from those rocks falling on his right side.

Obito died before the Kyuubi attacked. Minato was still alive at that point. 😐

As for age:

Obito is 13.

Kakashi is currently 29-30.

Naruto is currently 15-16.

I'm assuming Kakashi and Obito are the same age because they're on the same team. Since Tobi attacked on the night Naruto was born that would make Kakashi around 15-14 at the time. Which would mean that Obito would also be that age, giving him around 1-2 years between his death and the attack. Could he have sprouted to Minatos height, gained incredible skill and broken abilities, tracked down the Kyuubi, bound it to his will and sicced it on Konoha in 1-2 years?

Personally I'd say no but there've been stupider things in this manga. Plus alot can happen in a few years, as the events in the manga do show.

Kakashi in Part 1 was 26-27 roughly.

Naruto in Part 1 was 12-13 again roughly.

Kakashi during the attack of the Kyuubi would likely be 14, a year after the Gaiden took place.

Are you suggesting that Obito, with his fractured crippled body, hit a growth spurt and went from being smaller than Minato to taller than him within a year? 😐

Obito also has no motive. Which is really the most important thing to be looking at in all honesty.

Edit: Nephy poo read my mind. 😍

We are one.

Aurneph? 😮

No. From now on your name is also Nephthys and mine is also TheAuraAngle.

It is the most logical and unconfusibible way to do this.

TheAuraAngle? o.O

Edit: Wait...are we like Zetsu? Cause I wanna be the Black one! 😮

Yes.

Good. I don't wanna be black anyway.

Sweet. We get to walk around naked all day. awesome

And eat people.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obito died before the Kyuubi attacked. Minato was still alive at that point. 😐

As for age:

Obito is 13.

Kakashi is currently 29-30.

Naruto is currently 15-16.

I'm assuming Kakashi and Obito are the same age because they're on the same team. Since Tobi attacked on the night Naruto was born that would make Kakashi around 15-14 at the time. Which would mean that Obito would also be that age, giving him around 1-2 years between his death and the attack. Could he have sprouted to Minatos height, gained incredible skill and broken abilities, tracked down the Kyuubi, bound it to his will and sicced it on Konoha in 1-2 years?

I'd say yes since Naruto developed into one of the top 5 most powerful shinobis in all of Naruto history by 15-16.

And we could also assume Obito is 16-17 based on those numbers.

Obito also has the hax Sharingan wich would allow him to memorize thousands of jutsus in a short period of time.

By the time Itachi first meets him, Obito would be fully grown...and Itachi right around 14-15. Thus showing us the growth rate of Obito. 😄

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I'd say no but there've been stupider things in this manga. Plus alot can happen in a few years, as the events in the manga do show.

This is why I cannot dismiss the "Obito is Tobi" argument entirely, yet.

For me, here are the most plausible explanations, in order:

1. Tobi is a split form of Madara. This easily explains everything including the "shell of his former self" argument.

2. Tobi is Izuna. This also explains everything EXCEPT the shell of his former self argument.

3. Tobi is Madara's and Izuna's younger brother. This explains everything including the "shell of his former self" if we assume this younger brother was not as strong/adept as his older brothers WHILE preserving the MS eyeball of Madara's.

4. Tobi is Obito. That can work in both time frames and exlain the wrinkles on Tobi's right side: it's actually scaring from being smacked down by the boulders.

5. Tobi is a 5th person in this charade, as of yet not introduced, that will be so amazing as to not contradict any of the facts already presented, yet still be amazing enough to blow our minds away. This is the least likely of the scenarios...so on to 6...

6. It's a 5th person but Kishi will not write it well enough to keep from having written plot holes, thus almost ruining it.

The most probable is #6.

The one the fits the best while also still being sufficiently probable is #1.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, let's pretend that you did not say that there's a significant difference between the two versions of "madara" you presented.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Let's also pretend that I did not directly argue against that exact point by saying Madara could not cut his hair...ever.

Originally posted by dadudemon
At least you'll feel better about it, right? At least you can pretend that I did not directly reply against a point you made.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's funny, because that doesn't contradict what I said, even a little bit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why don't you re-read what I said and then realize why you missed my point entirely:

"And, about the eye: Itachi may have thought it was Madara's eye but it was actually someone else's, thus throwing off our entire assumption about Tobi having Madara's eye."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Because I know you'll miss the entire point:

Tobi is claiming to be Madara.

Tobi called that eye "his" eye.

Not once do I see him say that that is HIS/Madara's eye.

Originally posted by dadudemon
In fact, not a single quote exists that has Tobi saying, "this eye is my eye that I was born with and I am Madara".

Originally posted by dadudemon
What we do know is Tobi suggested that Itachi setup the amaterasu to go off at the sight of that particular eye: not necessarily Madara's eye...but that particular eye in Tobi's eye socket on Tobi's right side. THAT'S what Itachi did.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's what you're missing.

You simply didn't get that.

That's fine: I understand that points go cleanly over your head at times.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Specifically because no one made mention of Obito's potential, if applied, is automatic conclusion that he's a putz? Should you not conclude otherwise since he unlocked his Sharingan shortly thereafter and the author has a penchant for idiot characters actually being awesome (his main character, to be exact).

Originally posted by dadudemon
Furthermore, your comparison you did with chakra potential is actually quite a non sequitur argument.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Kakashi is definitely the more intelligent and versitile ninja even compared to the current version of Naruto. He is a more adept and capable ninja than Naruto because there's more to being a ninja than how fast or how destructive your techs are.

Originally posted by dadudemon
So even your "counter" wasn't even good enough.

You see, you still have not proven anything.

You just don't realize that.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Again, this:

"The entire assumption is that Obito somehow escaped with help or something...and then got medical attention."

In other words, you just simply don't get it.

The assumption is:

"The entire assumption is that Obito somehow escaped with help or something...and then got medical attention."

Originally posted by dadudemon
Next, explain how Minato would even know if Obito was alive in that rubble IF Minato did not have a byakugan?

Originally posted by dadudemon
What part about a "space-time jutsu" do you not understand? How did it even make sense in your head to assume the current Tobi being toted as Obito did not have some sort of logical explanation for why Obito could be Tobi?

Additionally, that version of Tobi/Madara was 15 years ago, right?

That would put that version of Tobi at...get this...drum roll pleas.......14-17 years old (we do not know how many years that event occured after Kakashi Gaiden but based on the ages...it looks to be about 2-5 years after Kakashi Gaiden).

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Tobi is a split form of Madara. This easily explains everything including the "shell of his former self" argument.

2. Tobi is Izuna. This also explains everything EXCEPT the shell of his former self argument.

3. Tobi is Madara's and Izuna's younger brother. This explains everything including the "shell of his former self" if we assume this younger brother was not as strong/adept as his older brothers WHILE preserving the MS eyeball of Madara's.

4. Tobi is Obito. That can work in both time frames and exlain the wrinkles on Tobi's right side: it's actually scaring from being smacked down by the boulders.

5. Tobi is a 5th person in this charade, as of yet not introduced, that will be so amazing as to not contradict any of the facts already presented, yet still be amazing enough to blow our minds away. This is the least likely of the scenarios...so on to 6...

1. Eh...I dunno...The Mu splits at least act like one another. Madara and Tobi are rather different. I also have problems with the idea that Tobi had the Rinnegan and didn't revive his original half right away to fuse with it.

2. Certainly gives him a motive. But doesn't explain why he is so weak when Izuna was supposed to be as skilled as Madara, more or less.

3. Possible....but I'm leaning more to the son idea personally.

4. Except for his random growth spurt and complete 180 in character. I can't really accept this one.

5. This and 6 are the same and simply reflects Kishi's writing for each. Personally, I'd think he's got things covered so that it at least makes some sense.

Remember well: Anything Tobi says not to Zetsu(and arguably Kabuto) in private is suspect now. "Weaker Shell" thing doesn't necessarily have to be true so I personally never factored it in.

Edit: Name dropping for the ****ing win! woot

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. Eh...I dunno...The Mu splits at least act like one another. Madara and Tobi are rather different. I also have problems with the idea that Tobi had the Rinnegan and didn't revive his original half right away to fuse with it.

You've only seen how Madara acts in just a very few short lines.

The playful attitude is, arguably, still there.

Additionally, characters personalities vary wildy. Naruto can sometimes be more emo than any character except Sasuke. He can then be more goofy than any character except B.

Also, we know that Nagato was "special" in the rinnegan thing. He was chosen for a reason. We partially know why. But Madara is obviously not capable of using the Rinnegan...but Tobi is due to the maturation of a technique to fuse Senju (Hashirama) cells to his body to make it work. That's something that took him more than 2 decades to accomplish. So that's easily explained.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. Certainly gives him a motive. But doesn't explain why he is so weak when Izuna was supposed to be as skilled as Madara, more or less.

It doesn't explain the "shell of his former self" at all. However, it explains a whole lotta shit like why Tobi looks old, how he can use Madara's eye in his eye socket and spam techniques over and over with it without his eye going blind...his compatibility with the eye (meaning he doesn't get super exhausted after using his sharingan).

But, yes, there's the hole of why he's just a shell of the full powered super saiya....I mean full powered Madara.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
3. Possible....but I'm leaning more to the son idea personally.

That could also work. Son, or younger brother: I'd probably put those on the same level because they accomplish the same thing namely: age and sharingan compatibility.

However, the son explanation doesn't work for why the sharingan is seemingly an EMS that Tobi has.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
4. Except for his random growth spurt and complete 180 in character. I can't really accept this one.

I can.

Characters have changed in other shounen manga, overnight. Happened to Sasuke...pretty much.

And the growth spurt would be far from Random if you consider how much Naruto grew in his timeskip.

And the fact that I grew a foot and a half between 11 and 13. 😐

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
5. This and 6 are the same and simply reflects Kishi's writing for each. Personally, I'd think he's got things covered so that it at least makes some sense.

It will make sense...but I am betting that it is #6 and we are shitting ourselves for no reason.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Remember well: Anything Tobi says not to Zetsu(and arguably Kabuto) in private is suspect now. "Weaker Shell" thing doesn't necessarily have to be true so I personally never factored it in.

Edit: Name dropping for the ****ing win! woot

I suspected this, as well...but it is not really true.

What did Tobi do that was chakra intensive other than constantly use the Sharingan for predicting movement, space-time jutsu, and making himself intangible?

That all seems to be sharingan based.

So if we assume he's an Uchiha, it doesn't drain his chakra very much...

So no massive stores of chakra are required.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. Tobi is a split form of Madara. This easily explains everything including the "shell of his former self" argument.

Originally posted by dadudemon
2. Tobi is Izuna. This also explains everything EXCEPT the shell of his former self argument.

Originally posted by dadudemon
3. Tobi is Madara's and Izuna's younger brother. This explains everything including the "shell of his former self" if we assume this younger brother was not as strong/adept as his older brothers WHILE preserving the MS eyeball of Madara's.

Originally posted by dadudemon
4. Tobi is Obito. That can work in both time frames and exlain the wrinkles on Tobi's right side: it's actually scaring from being smacked down by the boulders.

Originally posted by dadudemon
5. Tobi is a 5th person in this charade, as of yet not introduced, that will be so amazing as to not contradict any of the facts already presented, yet still be amazing enough to blow our minds away. This is the least likely of the scenarios...so on to 6...

Originally posted by dadudemon
6. It's a 5th person but Kishi will not write it well enough to keep from having written plot holes, thus almost ruining it.

Originally posted by Astner
Why?

Originally posted by Astner
Why?

You tell me.

Originally posted by Astner
No.

But you tried, at least. You tried.

Originally posted by Astner
It does.

It doesn't: you missed my point.

Originally posted by Astner
When he specifies that it is "his" sharingan that triggers the ability and not any sharingan and you say that it doesn't have to be the same sharingan Itachi saw then you're contradicting the evidence.

Then Tobi wouldn't have said that his eye triggered it!

See, you missed my point entirely and still do not get it. Even after I explained it.

Originally posted by Astner
I never argued that.

You never acknowledged or argued for it, either.

This is mostly why you just don't get it.

I'll give you a hint, that point you just quoted is mostly why you don't get it.

Originally posted by Astner
To our knowledge Itachi didn't know who Tobi was, the only time he had met "him" was when he had long hair and he intended to protect Sasuke from Madara.

That's also incorrect.

He met "Madara"/"Tobi" in the woods. He was wearing a mask. So here's what you're trying to pass off: Magically, Itachi doesn't remember that only one other person was wearing a similar mask, had a sharingan, and a hole over the right eye.

In fact, we know that that is not true. Unless you're going to make a case for what a giant idiot Itachi is?

I'll save you time in your reply: "But, but...waaaaah... Itachi didn't see the sharingan from Tobi."

Originally posted by Astner
I'll report this.

You do that, Astner.

While your at it, try to avoid getting perma-banned for abusing the report button.

Originally posted by Astner
I'd say so, yes. Kakashi even thought of Obito as incompetent.

It's like you didn't even pay attention the words I posted.

Originally posted by Astner
No it isn't.

You have to do better than a "nuh uhh" reply.

But, to reply to this: yes it is.

It is not shocking that you don't understand why it is.

Originally posted by Astner
Who cares?

"It is not shocking that you don't understand why [this is a relevant point.]"

Originally posted by Astner
These segments are completely unnecessary.

Pretty much your entire replies are completely unnecessary. So forgive me for not seeing your point, here.

Originally posted by Astner
So if he survived escaped dozen of tons of boulders crushing his body he'd go off to become one of the most dangerous threats?.

No. You still do not get it.

I would appreciate it if you would not use a strawman argument.

This is what I said:

"The entire assumption is that Obito somehow escaped with help or something...and then got medical attention."

Originally posted by Astner
You don't need to have the byakugan to be a sense other's chakra and you don't need to sense other's chakra to move boulders and confirm his death.

You need it if you are not a chakra sensor (Minato was not) and wanted to see under tons of boulders to see if someone was still alive (Minato did have that, either).

Are you deliberately missing points? Is this your way of trolling?

Originally posted by Astner
Funny, because just before you posted this long rant of a post I conceded to TheAuraAngel who argued that it didn't make sense. But you're somehow trying to justify my inaccurate complaint with space-time jutsu? Give me a break!

Calm down. Stop raging.

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Meaning, if you had the sense, you'd understand that there are two ways this could be done and both ways I have discussed.

1. Space-time jutsu.

2. Obito WAS old enough.

Since I discussed both ways and both ways have been discussed, you bringing it up and not getting it in no ways is important to the overall discussion. It just shows that you are not aware that your arguments failed before typing them and posting them.

No worries, though: it happens.

But I would appreciate it if you would stop raging at me and stop missing pretty much all of my points (which are on purpose).

Calm down bro's.