The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. But it is unlocked. And you're suggesting that it randomly locks back up. Which would be the same as Sasuke losing his MS if he ran into the revived Itachi. 😮

2. And after it is activated, why would it deactivate? An MS was put inside a crow right? The crow was probably not something that killed it's best friend but the MS stayed activated anyway.

Yes, I get where you're coming from. But it requires me to believe the eye would lock itself back up again the moment it entered other sockets. We haven't seen a case for it with any other sharingan, which is the only thing we have to work with by the way, so I don't see why the next stage of sharingan would be different.

1. You're suggesting that it works outside of a brother's body when there's no evidence for that but we know specifically that EMS is "in my brother's eye sockets." There is 0 evidence that the Sharingan stays as an EMS in any other body other than the brother Uchiha. All indications are that it only works inside of a brother Uchiha. That's the way it will be until proven differently. Any other conclusion is baseless.

2. And MS crow of Itachi's creation. Also, that MS is not EMS. It didn't have the "brother activation" clause, so that fails as any sort of legitimate example. For instance, Kakashi's is not EMS but it is MS. As fact, Kakashi's can never be EMS. Ever.

No, it requires the "brother clause" is the only way to EMS. That's it. There is not other explanations needed. Until proven otherwise, that's the way it has to be. If you want it to be any other way, then you must prove (you can't) that the eye works outside of a brother's eye socket as an EMS. Until then, it will be "only EMS inside of a brother's eye socket."

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. You're suggesting that it works outside of a brother's body when there's no evidence for that but we know specifically that EMS is "in my brother's eye sockets." There is 0 evidence that the Sharingan stays as an EMS in any other body other than the brother Uchiha. All indications are that it only works inside of a brother Uchiha. That's the way it will be until proven differently. Any other conclusion is baseless.

2. And MS crow of Itachi's creation. Also, that MS is not EMS. It didn't have the "brother activation" clause, so that fails as any sort of legitimate example. For instance, Kakashi's is not EMS but it is MS. As fact, Kakashi's can never be EMS. Ever.

No, it requires the "brother clause" is the only way to EMS. That's it. There is not other explanations needed. Until proven otherwise, that's the way it has to be. If you want it to be any other way, then you must prove (you can't) that the eye works outside of a brother's eye socket as an EMS. Until then, it will be "only EMS inside of a brother's eye socket."

1. The statement was "By changing hosts, the younger brothers eyes found an inextinguishable light!" And "Obviously this exchange can only be done between clansman." Later on Itachi mentions that brothers were killed to obtain the EMS but considering he truly wanted to make Sasuke think he was trying to kill him, it is less useful evidence.

2. Itachi knows Izanagi? And nothing has a brother activation clause dear boy. An exchange between clansman clause is much better.

Of course. But let us look at some other "Clauses" and see how easily subverted they are.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c224/24.html

"You must kill your closest friend clause." Well, Itachi may have killed Shisui but who did Shisui kill? And why did he kill him? Answer is he probably awakened it the same way Kakashi did. How? Dunno. All I know is the clause was subverted. Izuna and Madara...well, we know little about them. In a time of War where the clan was everything, I see little reason why they'd kill their best friends. Maybe the loss of them? Well in that case, what the hell happened in Shisui and Kakashi's case? Kakashi lost everyone important to him but he didn't get MS. Sasuke might have been but then again Sasuke didn't die. The fact that he was no longer around? Well, Sasuke left Naruto, his "closest friend" but he didn't awaken it. So this "Clause" all together makes no sense to me so I don't hold stock with any of the others. The whole "Brother Clause" could probably be called Brother in arms clause for all the ease that the MS "Clause" can be activated.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. The statement was "By changing hosts, the younger brothers eyes found an inextinguishable light!" And "Obviously this exchange can only be done between clansman." Later on Itachi mentions that brothers were killed to obtain the EMS but considering he truly wanted to make Sasuke think he was trying to kill him, it is less useful evidence.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We still have no evidence.

The "[inextinguishable]" line could simply be a reference/exaggeration (which it clearly was...what happens if they die? that's right..the eye goes too) to it being an eternal use for that particular brother.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. Itachi knows Izanagi?

That's completely irrelevant to what I have said and to what I said.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And nothing has a brother activation clause dear boy. An exchange between clansman clause is much better.

No, brothers. You're wrong and reaching, now. You're taking words out of context simply to be right.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course. But let us look at some other "Clauses" and see how easily subverted they are.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v25/c224/24.html

Of course, this does nothing for your case. It is a complete strawman on your part.

Additionally, it is a non sequitur argument.

You would have to prove that the mechanisms are exactly the same for EMS as MS. We obviously know they are not.

Additionally, we still do not know how Kakashi activated his. Therefore, you are still making a baseless, implicit, point.

Additionally, we know for a fact that it must be brothers. The only two cases, Sasuke and Madara, used their brothers' eyes. That's 2 out of 2. 100% confirmed.

Until other information is provided on another way for EMS, any claims you make will be, literally, baseless.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
"You must kill your closest friend clause." Well, Itachi may have killed Shisui but who did Shisui kill? And why did he kill him? Answer is he probably awakened it the same way Kakashi did. How? Dunno. All I know is the clause was subverted. Izuna and Madara...well, we know little about them. In a time of War where the clan was everything, I see little reason why they'd kill their best friends. Maybe the loss of them? Well in that case, what the hell happened in Shisui and Kakashi's case? Kakashi lost everyone important to him but he didn't get MS. Sasuke might have been but then again Sasuke didn't die. The fact that he was no longer around? Well, Sasuke left Naruto, his "closest friend" but he didn't awaken it. So this "Clause" all together makes no sense to me so I don't hold stock with any of the others. The whole "Brother Clause" could probably be called Brother in arms clause for all the ease that the MS "Clause" can be activated.

A whole bunch of words that are irrelevant.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's completely irrelevant to what I have said and to what I said.

Except you implied Itachi created a Crow out of nothing. Izanagi is the only technique to do that. 😮

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, brothers. You're wrong and reaching, now. You're taking words out of context simply to be right.

The word Brother has been used very loosely in the context of the story any way. 😮

Originally posted by dadudemon
You would have to prove that the mechanisms are exactly the same for EMS as MS. We obviously know they are not.

Additionally, we know for a fact that it must be brothers. The only two cases, Sasuke and Madara, used their brothers' eyes. That's 2 out of 2. 100% confirmed.

However logical reasoning leads me to believe that once a sharingan eye evolves to the next stage, it always has that stage even when transplanted.

We know for a fact that all named Uzumaki Women have married Hokages. I guess they can't marry anyone else.

Originally posted by dadudemon
A whole bunch of words that are irrelevant.

Unless of course one sees the point. The rules of the sharingan evolutions are very loose. We're talking about eye balls here. I doubt they know the difference between brothers, half brothers, cousins, sisters, whatever. 😮

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Except you implied Itachi created a Crow out of nothing. Izanagi is the only technique to do that. 😮

Except I didn't imply anything.

But you are still overlooking this:

"That's completely irrelevant to what I have said and to what I said."

Context is key: we are not talking about crows that Itachi used or created.

But I seem to recall that Itachi created crows from thin "air" all the time.

They seem temporary, though...different than actually creating life.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The word Brother has been used very loosely in the context of the story any way. 😮

That's also another irrelevant point.

There's 3 things wrong with what you are doing:

1. Hinata called Neji "brother" and the context is made quite clear by Kakashi.

2. That's the Hyuuga clan, not the Uchiha clan.

3. The only two examples of "brother eye swapping" in order to get the EMS were by direct brothers.

Are you done with this line of reasoning?

Please tell me you are finished? 🙁

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
However logical reasoning leads me to believe that once a sharingan eye evolves to the next stage, it always has that stage even when transplanted.

Let's be clear that your reasoning is baseless and, therefore, absolutely cannot be logical.

In order to be logical, you must fit the classic logic model of "if p then q". You have no p, therefore you conclusion cannot be logical. It is just speculation.

Also, let me be clear that I find NOTHING wrong with speculation. Just as long as you are honest that it is speculation and baseless. It may seem like I'm being rough, but I'm not serious business about it. I LOVE speculating this stuff. 😄

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
We know for a fact that all named Uzumaki Women have married Hokages. I guess they can't marry anyone else.

Incorrect: there were other Uzumaki women shown in both the manga and anime other than the two that married Hokage.

Additionally, you just executed a non-sequitur logical fallacy WHILE also indirectly using a strawman (the implied is a misrepresentation of my argument by using an example that is supposed to run parallel to that misrepresented argument: it "does not follow" and that's an indirect strawman". Keep in mind that you're the one claiming to be "logical"...I'm just showing you where you're not. 😄)

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Unless of course one sees the point. The rules of the sharingan evolutions are very loose. We're talking about eye balls here. I doubt they know the difference between brothers, half brothers, cousins, sisters, whatever. 😮

No, the rules of the sharingan evolution are not loose.

No exception has been seen, at all. You are only assuming, baselessly, that Kakashi did NOT kill his best friend.

Itachi...we don't know for sure but it was claimed he killed Shisui. More likely, it was the loss of his lover that he killed. 🙁 Poor Itachi. 🙁

Sasuke, yes, it was Itachi.

In fact, we may just be able to say that that particular point was just an incorrect assumption and in all 3 cases, it only requires the loss of a very close loved one.

But there's a problem with trying to pass off the same exact logic or circumstances required to unlock the MS, to the EMS: the EMS is unlocked in a different way and we have a 100% confirm rate to back that up.

MS:

Sasuke: it could be that the death of Itachi was truly "killing your best friend". Sasuke could very much think he was the end of Itachi. Zetsu certainly said Sasuke won and Sasuke may see it that way, as well.

Kakashi could see the death of Obito as him killing him through his own sense of responsibility to save everyone on the team. So that's explained, as well.

Notice that both of my examples for why it is the killing of a "best friend"? Both of them have direct evidence. Therefore, they are logical conclusions.

However, they are not 100% confirmed.

The real way is just simply feeling the loss of one very very close to you.

But that is not confirmed, either.

How to get EMS? It's 100% confirmed. 😄

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Except you implied Itachi created a Crow out of nothing. Izanagi is the only technique to do that. 😮

Are you suggesting that Naruto had an actual goddamn crow inside his stomach for however long?

Its obvious its not a real crow.

He also has a Toad in his stomach that went through the same entrance.

So you're saying...summon rather than just a superficial fabrication?

I dunno...Itachi and his crows. The seem more like...magic poof poof genjutsu things. Sort of like genjutsu brought to life (oh shit).

I will be right on this thing. No way was that crow Itachi's creation. If he had access to Senju cells, he'd have used it for the eye. It has to be a pet/summon. 😮

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. But it is unlocked. And you're suggesting that it randomly locks back up. Which would be the same as Sasuke losing his MS if he ran into the revived Itachi. 😮

2. And after it is activated, why would it deactivate? An MS was put inside a crow right? The crow was probably not something that killed it's best friend but the MS stayed activated anyway.

Yes, I get where you're coming from. But it requires me to believe the eye would lock itself back up again the moment it entered other sockets. We haven't seen a case for it with any other sharingan, which is the only thing we have to work with by the way, so I don't see why the next stage of sharingan would be different.

1. Not randomly.

2. EMS =/= MS. MS is a direct evolutionary upgrade of the a person's Sharingan. EMS is simply a person's MS in their sibling's body, in other words, a replacement.

Until something comes up, we have no proof that an EMS will stay an EMS if said eyes are transferred to someone else. Since the EMS is basically an MS in another person's body, I think it'll just be the original person's MS that is transferred. If the new recipient happens to be a sibling or whatever, then we'd probably get a new EMS. That's when you'd have a case, but it still would not be an EMS that was transferred.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He also has a Toad in his stomach that went through the same entrance.

They're not in his stomach though! 😮

They'd get digested if they were. 😛

Originally posted by dadudemon

Notice that both of my examples for why it is the killing of a "best friend"? Both of them have direct evidence. Therefore, they are logical conclusions.
However, they are not 100% confirmed.
The real way is just simply feeling the loss of one very very close to you.
But that is not confirmed, either.

Probably some sort of combination of both. Alternatively, you have to feel the loss of that close person, and they have to be dead. If they have gone away, you likely would not feel the same amount of grief you would if they were dead.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I will be right on this thing. No way was that crow Itachi's creation. If he had access to Senju cells, he'd have used it for the eye. It has to be a pet/summon. 😮

It actually doesn't matter.

I consider this a red herring to the real discussion.

But where did he put it? Where did it go?

More than likely, it's just magic poof poof empty stuff that goes no where. Or else you're suggesting the Naruto did NOT swallow the eye and did NOT digest it (those would be the requirements.)

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
They're not in his stomach though! 😮

They'd get digested if they were. 😛

Edit - nevermind, I was ninja'd. Pun intended...and it was not intended to be a funny pun. If I groaned, I can only imagine the other end.

But you mentioned it. 😮

It went where everything else went I guess.

Lol the reason Naruto beat the Kyuubi was because the crow was there and it made it lose. vin

The only reason Naruto beat the Kyuubi was because he mentioned Sasuke's name to it.

He Did? 🤨

In secret. Kyuubi then promised to throw the fight so that Naruto wouldn't sic Sasuke on it.

facepalm

The more I think on it, Izuna seems unlikely. If he did take Madara's eyes, he'd be powerful enough to not need to resort to round about tactics. Izuna was Madara's equal after all apparently. Maybe Madara was a hair stronger.

Connect...the...dots...

What am I missing....?mmm

^ The Former Sage of the Six Paths or the Older Brother? Could you imagine that? Kind of possible with Izanagi.

But meh, can't believe you're still on this.

He calls himself the Second Sage so I doubt he is the first. As for the Older Brother...well, he apparently had the eyes but he should be dead by now. And again I don't think he'd need to do all this to conquer the world....

How and why did he give the Rinnegan to Nagato? Did he transplant it? Well why would he do that? Nagato had the Rinnegan as a kid....Tobi could be his dad? But no sharingan...mmm

Nagato's name is Uzumaki. One of his parents was Uzumaki. Uzumaki + Uchiha chakra=Rinnegan?

Edit: I like puzzles. I wanna figure things out. 😮

I know this. That is why I said "Could you imagine that?". Though it would be awesome if Tobi was the Older Brother.
Still, with Izanagi, one could theoretically postpone death. Those Bijuu have been alive for ages. The OB wanted to achieve peace through power & domination, which oddly enough, coincides with Tobi's ultimate endgame.

Some people were thinking that Tobi transplanted his Mangekyou Sharingan into Nagato, and when Nagato activated it (much like one would unlock a Sharingan), it became the Rinnegan. Of course, I don't need to tell you what's wrong with this.
Your Tobi is Nagato's dad, & Uzumaki + Uchiha = Rinnegan, reminded me of that. It's plausible of course.