Originally posted by Q99
If we're told someone has susano'o, they're S+. I can't picture someone with a full susano'o being less than S+, because even not knowing their particular variant, "We've seen Susano'o. It's uber."Similarly Dust. If we heard someone else had Dust, I'd rank them high, because "We've seen Dust. It's uber."
We've seen Kyuubi chakra mode, it's uber. We also know she has other strong areas, because, y'know, variety of abilities is part of ratings too. But we've seen the main ability she has. It's uber.
MS Sasuke had Susano'o. He is not S+.
I wouldn't because just someone can use something, it doesn't mean they're skilled.
Indeed, it is uber. But we have no idea how she used it in combat.
Granted, I don't really care where Mito is or not. Just pointing out some flaws. Will also point out that skill with Kyuubi Chakra mode seems...instinctive more than anything else. It's certainly not a stretch to assume she can do the things Naruto does. Minus the rasengan.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
She has no business being S+; especially if Danzo isn't.
Danzo would get destroyed by the S+ ninja. Except maybe Onoki, who I think should be bumped down anyway.
Of course, this is assuming he is forced to fight.
Because though he may be the strongest, he has the most weaknesses. His back, low stamina(as far as I can tell), and his carelessness. Not as careless as A of course but he certainly doesn't think things through as much as he should.
But that's just me. I would sorta prefer it if all the Kage were in the same ranking(the living ones anyway).
MS Sasuke had Susano'o. He is not S+.
Mm, true.
Still, "You have Susano'o, you're at least high in S," is the case.
"If you have ability X, you're at least Y rank," holds true with several powers.
RE: Blaxican
She has no business being S+; especially if Danzo isn't.
Why?
Kyuubi chakra mode would physically destroy him.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because though he may be the strongest, he has the most weaknesses. His back, low stamina(as far as I can tell), and his carelessness. Not as careless as A of course but he certainly doesn't think things through as much as he should.But that's just me. I would sorta prefer it if all the Kage were in the same ranking(the living ones anyway).
Sure, he has weaknesses, but it's the "We need a Dust User to fight Muu, no-one else can do," factor, and even with his weaknesses he can still do so many dust blasts.
Originally posted by Q99
Quite frankly, Kyuubi chakra mode as shown has been a lot more useful than a rampaging full transformation, and Mito's was when the Kyuubi was at full power rather than half to boot.We know Yugito does not have full control. Hers is most likely more like Gaara letting Shukaku taking over than Bee's controlled tactical use. She can transform at will, but she is not a mastered user.
As far as the stats, A is strong enough to kill the kyuubi form with one punch. So that is not really wowing me (its not bad, but its certainly not S+). Speed again, is roughly comparable; maybe Naruto is faster, but from the fight is is clear that simply having the form is not enough, so, that can hardly be applied to Mito and in any case the difference is small. Chakra levels are again analogous to A.
Meanwhile, Killer Bee surpasses that form in every single aspect in base form. How can you possibly include Mito in the same tier as him, when he is leagues above her without even using any of his abilities.
Originally posted by Q99
You're arguing that some vacuum jutsu, an elephant summon, and implants is equal to Kyuubi-chakra mode?"Based on that data alone," is just ignoring the rest of her powers. When rating someone, we take into account all abilities.
"That data alone" = the data YOU provided. Kyuubi form and sealing jutsu. Taking both of those into account, I think she would lose to every single S+ character and a good number of the S ones.
Originally posted by Q99
Rather, my point is based on "We've seen this ability, it's uber."If we're told someone has susano'o, they're S+. I can't picture someone with a full susano'o being less than S+, because even not knowing their particular variant, "We've seen Susano'o. It's uber."
Similarly Dust. If we heard someone else had Dust, I'd rank them high, because "We've seen Dust. It's uber."
We've seen Kyuubi chakra mode, it's uber. We also know she has other strong areas, because, y'know, variety of abilities is part of ratings too. But we've seen the main ability she has. It's uber.
The other "strong areas" you're talking about... why is that plural? Her other strong area is sealing; how is that going to help her in a fight when we have never seen her use it for combat applications?
Originally posted by NemeBro
Shisui's Eye would make her kill herself?Unless I forgot Kyuubi chakra mode is immune to Genjutsu or something.
Wouldn't the option of making clones solve that easily? Unlike most shadow clones, KCM ones still fight at S/S+ level. Mito pops 4 of them, sends them at him, and he's doomed.
Aside from Shisui's eye, KCM is in another league from him, and I'll note the Shisui's eye argument applies to almost all S+ ninja. People did argue that the eye wasn't enough to bump up due to it's significant limitations, slow recharge and circumstances often getting Danzo not to use it.
It is potentially an argument for bumping Danzo *up*, but I can't see it as an argument for bumping Mito *down* when it applies equal or more to the other S+s.
King KandyWhat has kyuubi mode shown? Not a whole lot, by itself. Sensing, enhanced chakra, good stats... and that's it. Everything else we've seen has been due to naruto's unique jutsu.
Physical stats at least on an S level on their own, clones that each have enough chakra to repeatedly use top-level jutsu, hands that greatly enhance melee and can be used in many jutsu, etc..
What are you blabbering about here? I brought Danzo up because her other ability is sealing jutsu, and Danzo is a master at sealing.
Which is a really dumb argument.
"Mito has KCM and Sealing, therefore she's S+," "Well Danzo has sealing too, so he must be S+ as well."
Makes as much sense as "Kakashi has a thousand Ninjutsu and good Taijutsu, he's A+" "X has the same Taijutsu as Kakashi, he must be A+ too!"
Additional abilities helps support someone's higher level, but arguing two people must be the same level because someone else shares secondary ability doesn't make a lick of sense.
We've seen Kyuubi chakra mode and it alone is about A level.
So Sage mode must be about B-rank, then?
Originally posted by Q99
Physical stats at least on an S level on their own, clones that each have enough chakra to repeatedly use top-level jutsu, hands that greatly enhance melee and can be used in many jutsu, etc..
Originally posted by Q99
Which is a really dumb argument."Mito has KCM and Sealing, therefore she's S+," "Well Danzo has sealing too, so he must be S+ as well."
Makes as much sense as "Kakashi has a thousand Ninjutsu and good Taijutsu, he's A+" "X has the same Taijutsu as Kakashi, he must be A+ too!"
Focusing on the lesser ability as to why someone must be equal doesn't make sense.
Physical strength: Izanagi renders this useless
Sealing: he is great at it
Kyuubi form: he has Mokuton and sharingan and can control Biju, so this is a non-factor
How can she beat him when he has a counter to every single one of her abilities and can actually override her control? How?
Originally posted by Q99
So Sage mode must be about B-rank, then?
Originally posted by King Kandy
But Mito has demonstrated no "top-level jutsu", nor any jutsu using the hands. So those abilities are wasted here. As far as melee, maybe she could merit an S on that regard.
A level as in, on equal footing with A the raikage. That is, S-rank.
Ah, that makes more sense.
However, I will note that A's an S almost entirely on that physical ability.... and KCM provides a lot more than physical ability. It's physical abilities are almost secondary to the insane amount of chakra it gives.
You still don't understand my argument after i've explained it twice. He matches her on all aspects.
You definitely didn't provide a lot of this detail and explanation as to why before!
Physical strength: Izanagi renders this useless
He has the ability to not die for a few minutes, and it runs out. KCM lasts a whole lot longer, and is useful in a much wider range of circumstances.
When it runs out, he's dead.
KCM has enough chakra for many battles at the same time. Endurance overcomes.
Sealing: he is great at it
Ok, matched there.
Kyuubi form: he has Mokuton and sharingan and can control Biju, so this is a non-factor
Now this is a relatively good argument. If he has enough control to overcome hers, he could win.
However, this is specific weakness exploitation that applies to Biju hosts and only biju hosts. She is much more useful against a wide range of foes and has a metric ton of more power. Furthermore, shutting down with wood isn't easy to do and requires making wood restraints and such, as we've seen with Yamato, it's not a quick and easy shut down. Using wood at all is very taxing on him as we've seen, before getting into the 'wood goes nuts' problem the others mentioned.
If he can't shut her down, he's road pizza.
How can she beat him when he has a counter to every single one of her abilities and can actually override her control? How?
Stand back, send clones to make him wear out his very limited-use jutsu. When he runs out of Izanagi, personally get in and physically crush him before he can shut her down.
The shut-down ability is practically the only reason it's a fight.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Um, since when? What do you base that notion on?
Dis. Granted, she'd have to touch him. Not too hard in Kyuubi mode.
Originally posted by Q99
Ah, that makes more sense.However, I will note that A's an S almost entirely on that physical ability.... and KCM provides a lot more than physical ability. It's physical abilities are almost secondary to the insane amount of chakra it gives.
Originally posted by Q99
He has the ability to not die for a few minutes, and it runs out. KCM lasts a whole lot longer, and is useful in a much wider range of circumstances.When it runs out, he's dead.
KCM has enough chakra for many battles at the same time. Endurance overcomes.
Ok, matched there.
Now this is a relatively good argument. If he has enough control to overcome hers, he could win.
However, this is specific weakness exploitation that applies to Biju hosts and only biju hosts. She is much more useful against a wide range of foes and has a metric ton of more power. Furthermore, shutting down with wood isn't easy to do and requires making wood restraints and such, as we've seen with Yamato, it's not a quick and easy shut down. Using wood at all is very taxing on him as we've seen.
If he can't shut her down, he's road pizza.
Originally posted by Q99
Stand back, send clones to make him wear out his very limited-use jutsu. When he runs out of Izanagi, personally get in and physically crush him before he can shut her down.The shut-down ability is practically the only reason it's a fight.
Even without his biju control Kotoamatsukami is a second win condition.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Dis. Granted, she'd have to touch him. Not too hard in Kyuubi mode.
BTW, touching him would actually not just be hard, it would be impossible. Izanagi and all that.
In short, they both have abilities that may mess with the other, and KCM is far more dangerous to other foes, and in general utility (Fast Healing and Super Sensor).
Using A as an example, I'd solidly give A a win over Danzo if Shisui's eye can't be used, and KCM has some nice advantages besides that level of physicality.
That was just a fodder weakling so I see no evidence it applies to Danzo. By this logic Hashirama himself would fall to the mode.
Danzo almost lost control of the wood without outside meddling. His body isn't designed for it like Hashirama's or even Yamato's.
Originally posted by King Kandy
That was just a fodder weakling so I see no evidence it applies to Danzo. By this logic Hashirama himself would fall to the mode.BTW, touching him would actually not just be hard, it would be impossible. Izanagi and all that.
Not an argument. It affects Senju cells and Mokuton in general. Danzo's arm has Hashirama's face on it, made of Senju cells obviously, so it would go nuts, as it works in the same way that Zetsu seem to.
She presumably has Kyuubi Mode speed, which is faster than even A's fastest move. She can cover the distance between her and Danzo before he can finish the jutsu.
Originally posted by Q99
In short, they both have abilities that may mess with the other, and KCM is far more dangerous to other foes, and in general utility (Fast Healing and Super Sensor).Using A as an example, I'd solidly give A a win over Danzo if Shisui's eye can't be used, and KCM has some nice advantages besides that level of physicality.
A would lose to Danzo badly. Not only are physical attacks worthless, but he even has the elemental advantage on that one. This is a stomp.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not an argument. It affects Senju cells and Mokuton in general. Danzo's arm has Hashirama's face on it, made of Senju cells obviously, so it would go nuts, as it works in the same way that Zetsu seem to.She presumably has Kyuubi Mode speed, which is faster than even A's fastest move. She can cover the distance between her and Danzo before he can finish the jutsu.
If Kyuubi mode was faster than A automatically, why was A faster at first? Naruto needed to improve to match his speed, the mode didn't automatically grant it. So you have no idea if Mito would be that fast or not.
A couldn't move fast enough to clock Sasuke, why will it work on Danzo? I mean this is a ridiculous line of argument; at this point, you are debating on the merits of denying the opponents their jutsu (Kotoamatsukami, Izanagi) while granting Kushina ones we don't even know she has (clones, trained speed).