Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Uzumaki cells extend life. The Senju weren't really noted for their longevity, just their physical energy (which itself isn't known to extend life) and their battle skills.
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/545/4
Tsunade disagrees. 😛
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/545/4Tsunade disagrees. 😛
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Hashirama was a god among them though. That's why they all want his cells.
It's telling that everyone wants Hashirama's cells specifically, not any random Senju's; not even Tobirama's, who's more bawss than Hashirama & Minato combined.
131
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It doesn't. Tobirama is pretty dead.
But, it would be a decent twist and it works out...okay, I suppose. I have no problems, superficially, with Tobi being the second.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Tobi probably did kill Hashirama.
How do you know he killed him? You're making jokes...and it's going over my head because I'm not hip with the young people.
Originally posted by dadudemon
But, it would be a decent twist and it works out...okay, I suppose. I have no problems, superficially, with Tobi being the second.How do you know he killed him? You're making jokes...and it's going over my head because I'm not hip with the young people.
Tobirama has been brought back from the dead. How could he be Tobi? Why would he need to ask about Edo Tensei? Etc, etc.
Nope. Tobi has seen Hashirama at the very least and if Kabuto knows who he is, Tobi indicates that they have battled. Granted since the audience believed he was Madara at the time, he could be keeping up appearances. Which doesn't make sense because Kabuto knows he isn't Madara.
Unless he is Madara split or something dumb like that of course.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Wait...Tobi = Tobirama.WTF?
Surely not.
That doesn't work out in the Japanese characters...I think...
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Tobirama has been brought back from the dead. How could he be Tobi? Why would he need to ask about Edo Tensei? Etc, etc.
For the same reason that there are multiple bodies of Hashish "running" around: Tobi may have SOME abilities, related to his genetics, that his older brother has.
The mechanics do not need to be worked out, quite yet, though. However, this is not my opinion. I don't support Tobi = Tobirama........yet.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nope. Tobi has seen Hashirama at the very least and if Kabuto knows who he is, Tobi indicates that they have battled. Granted since the audience believed he was Madara at the time, he could be keeping up appearances. Which doesn't make sense because Kabuto knows he isn't Madara.
You're correct: he used the "they tried to blame the attack by the 9 tails on me but it was just a natural disaster" line on Sasuke when explaining to him.
We have irrefutible evidence that SOMEONE that looks remarkably like Tobi in his get-up, attacked Konoha WITH the Kyuubi...making him a liar.
So we do not know how much Tobi is telling the truth about that when he says he fought the second.
There are several lies, already, from Tobi, that have been debunked by in-manga evidence.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Unless he is Madara split or something dumb like that of course.
Of course: that's still my "favorite" option and works better/less convoluted than the "Tobirama split" idea.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Finally someone else sees the obvious.That said, Tobirama's a more viable candidate for Tobi than Obito is, and that's saying something.
To me, it's a bit different than "obito = tobi" but rearranging the romanized versions (anagram).
It's like...not even the same thing.
Originally posted by King Kandy
You know, that would be a good twist that would actually tie up some loose ends. It would explain why he knew space-time ninjutsu. It would explain why the real madara knew of Edo Tensei and the moon's eye plan (Tobirama invented Edo Tensei). It would explain how he got Hashirama's DNA. However, it would open up some holes too. Most obviously, we saw Tobirama's soul be consumed.
Yes, that last part is the biggest bane of the entire argument.
Is it possible to "Voldemort it up" by splitting your soul into fully functional pieces?
I don't know. That's creating something new to make the argument work....so I do not like doing that.
The "madara split" idea is do-able since we do not have to create anything new: a character has already done that.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're correct: he used the "they tried to blame the attack by the 9 tails on me but it was just a natural disaster" line on Sasuke when explaining to him. We have irrefutible evidence that SOMEONE that looks remarkably like Tobi in his get-up, attacked Konoha WITH the Kyuubi...making him a liar. So we do not know how much Tobi is telling the truth about that when he says he fought the second. There are several lies, already, from Tobi, that have been debunked by in-manga evidence.
Then Tobi has probably at least seen Hashirma before, as Naruto reminds him of the guy. The only things of Tobi's that can be trusted is things that are going inside his head and he clearly compares Naruto to Hashirama.
But onto Tobi's lies. I say we analyze everything out of his freaking mouth.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Then Tobi has probably at least seen Hashirma before, as Naruto reminds him of the guy. The only things of Tobi's that can be trusted is things that are going inside his head and he clearly compares Naruto to Hashirama.But onto Tobi's lies. I say we analyze everything out of his freaking mouth.
Okay, let's analyze. 👆
1. That very same scan you posted: he could be lying, yet again, about knowing the first. That is not to say that he lied about knowing the First, but that he lies in general.
We already know he directly lied about NOT attacking Konoha. Minato laid the smack on Tobi when he tried to do so. So we have one direct lie, right there.
2. He said he was Madara.
Madara was just revived by Kabuto. So he's either lying or there's some sort of complex eplanation.
3. He said he fought the first and took his cells. But that is in question now that we know Madara is a different person...on the surface.
4. He said that Hashirama was his rival: he hated and admired him.
In the flashbacks, only hate is seen from Madara to Hashirama. Possibly lie that shows that Tobi is a third party that actually admired Hashirama...but still trying to pretend to be Madara? Possible...speculation...but possible.
5. He said that his little brother gave up his eyes, willingly. Well...forget about the whole "tobi is not madara" problem: Izune was dead in one panel. You don't die from getting your eyes taken. Something is up with that. Did Tobi lie about that? Probably.
6. Tobi talks about his moon's eye plan...but is it really his? Or is it Madara's because Madara just made mention of it in the last chapter. So what is lies and what is not?
7. Why doesn't Tobi know about Edo Tensei? He supposedly knows the first and second, Madara, and some other people. He (tobi) claims to be Madara and to have survived longer than his battle with the first. Madara knew about it...so why didn't Tobi? AHA! Two different people, me thinks. Tobi was all curious and wanted to know about ET...but the revived Madara saw two different ways for him to be resurrected and didn't bat an eye. (well, he was mad about being revived in that "naughty" way). http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/559/2
Edit - And Gaara says this about it: http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/559/16
So, for now, I take back that Madara split: he is dead or died. So I was wrong about Madara splitting. Tobi is just an entirely differnet perosn.
There's more, but I'm running out of time. Argue against my points and present your own lies/deceptions from Tobi. I'm curious, as well.
More to point 7: Madara knows quite a bit about ET:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/2
He says it was originally intended to wipe the mape clean including the castor..which I assume is Kabuto. It's supposed to be an ultimate trump card to kills everyone??? When Kabuto is killed, that means that ET is killed.
So Kabuto lied to Tobi about it persisting after his death? Or was that our speculation that Kabuto was implying that?
Edit - http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/8
Madara says he hasn't enjoyed that view in a long while. Why is that? He go the Rinnigan only SHORTLY before his death. So how could he have enjoyed that view "in a long while" when it appears that being revived is instant to the perceptions of "ET"? Remember back when they were like...the last thing I remember was x...
Remember that?
So why does Madara have memory of a long space of time and the other ET people don't?
Originally posted by dadudemonkabuto already said that wouldn't work. ET is forever until rescinded by the caster
More to point 7: Madara knows quite a bit about ET:http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/2
He says it was originally intended to wipe the mape clean including the castor..which I assume is Kabuto. It's supposed to be an ultimate trump card to kills everyone??? When Kabuto is killed, that means that ET is killed.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes, that last part is the biggest bane of the entire argument.Is it possible to "Voldemort it up" by splitting your soul into fully functional pieces?
I don't know. That's creating something new to make the argument work....so I do not like doing that.
The "madara split" idea is do-able since we do not have to create anything new: a character has already done that.
I'm going to try to avoid Madara in the meantime. He and Tobi are clearly "allies" or at least, that is how Madara sees it. I want to play guesses at what Tobi has lied about and why.
First things first, Sasuke. Tobi wants Sasuke to sync him with Gedo Mazo. Why he planned to do so is beyond me but given how he reacted to Nagato's death, Tobi probably wants someone brought back. Who and why is a mystery. Even more of a mystery is this: If he wanted it done, why not get Pain to do it?
Secondly, the story given to Tobi. If one notices it, Tobi is certainly spinning the story to portray the Uchiha as sympathetic and Konoha in general to be horrible. "Of course the Kyuubi wasn't summoned by an Uchiha, it was an accident." We know that isn't true. "Tobirama put the Uchiha in charge of the police to ostracize them." Tobirama has sacrificed his life for an Uchiha, so that is probably not true. Granted, that might have been circumstance but I'm not buying it. He is clearly trying to make Sasuke hate Konoha and it certainly appears to have worked.
However, two final things. The first is his discussion with Naruto. He tells of the story between the two Sage's sons. Odd, he never mentioned that to Sasuke. Tobi says that no matter what Naruto says, he will fight Sasuke. Tobi plans to make sure of that. But why? If all Tobi wants to do is my everyone a part of him, why would it matter if Sasuke and Naruto fought each other? Did Madara know about this? Isn't Tobi running the risk of Sasuke dying in battle? What is the motive behind this battle that Tobi has made sure will take place?
Lastly...The Moon's Eye Plan. He makes several references to it before spilling the beans. Now my question is, and I think in all fairness this is a legit question...WHY!? Why would you tell someone flat out "I'm going to enslave all of you, wanna help?" That gives them all the more reason to unite against you. In fact, Tobi knew that it would come to war because he prepared Kisame and the Zetsu in advance. But that's not the problem. Why would Tobi tell them that to begin with? Why bother starting a war when, honestly, you don't need to. Bee is missing and you've sent Kisame to get him. You have Sasuke, bait for Naruto. What was the purpose?
http://www.mangareader.net/93-56935-15/naruto/chapter-507.html
Was the plan Tobi said here the plan he and Madara concocted or not? The one said to the Kages was certainly what Madara thought was the plan....but is it Tobi's?
Final Note: Where were the Uchiha on the night of the Kyuubi's attack? mmm
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Final Note: Where were the Uchiha on the night of the Kyuubi's attack? mmm
That reminds me:
Why does the Sharingan control the Kyuubi?
This further supports my point that the Kyuubi is "mostly the Jubi". Not only in the shape of it's body...but in attributes as well.
Why does the sharingan control the Kyuubi but not other tailed beasts?
Because the Sharingan is a dilluted form of the Rinnigan...and the Rinnigan can control the Jubi.
The Kyuubi is the primary componenent of the Jubi and inherited most of it's "mystical" attributes.
In fact...is it possible that he mind of the Jubi is the Kyuubi's and this is why the Kyuubi seems more intelligent and more sinister than the others. The Kyuubi wasn't "wild" or feral like the Hachibi was described: he was just damned mean and wanted free. He seems different.
My bet is all of this is tied together, somehow.
The Kyuubi to the Jubi, the Uchiha to the Jubi (established), the Sage to the Jubi (established), and the other biju to the Jubi (established).
We just need something like, "Oh, hey, Naruto...the great Sage put my mind into the 9-tails form as well as most of my original power."
This would explain why he doesn't want to be controlled by Madara sooooooo much so that he was happy that Naruto was fighting against Madara and succeeding. There's a legit grin on the Kyubi's face.
Someone needs to ****ING ask the Kyubi WTF is up with EVERYTHING. The key to EVERYTHING is in the Kyubi's mind.
**** **** *** SH*T **** T*TTY ****!
Okay, I'm done raging about the Kyuubi.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That reminds me:Why does the Sharingan control the Kyuubi?
This further supports my point that the Kyuubi is "mostly the Jubi". Not only in the shape of it's body...but in attributes as well.
Why does the sharingan control the Kyuubi but not other tailed beasts?
Because the Sharingan is a dilluted form of the Rinnigan...and the Rinnigan can control the Jubi.
The Kyuubi is the primary componenent of the Jubi and inherited most of it's "mystical" attributes.
In fact...is it possible that he mind of the Jubi is the Kyuubi's and this is why the Kyuubi seems more intelligent and more sinister than the others. The Kyuubi wasn't "wild" or feral like the Hachibi was described: he was just damned mean and wanted free. He seems different.
My bet is all of this is tied together, somehow.
The Kyuubi to the Jubi, the Uchiha to the Jubi (established), the Sage to the Jubi (established), and the other biju to the Jubi (established).
We just need something like, "Oh, hey, Naruto...the great Sage put my mind into the 9-tails form as well as most of my original power."
This would explain why he doesn't want to be controlled by Madara sooooooo much so that he was happy that Naruto was fighting against Madara and succeeding. There's a legit grin on the Kyubi's face.
Someone needs to ****ING ask the Kyubi WTF is up with EVERYTHING. The key to EVERYTHING is in the Kyubi's mind.
**** **** *** SH*T **** T*TTY ****!
Okay, I'm done raging about the Kyuubi.