http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/550/11
He apparently trusted Itachi with his eye to protect the village. If he wanted to do destroy the village, why bother?
Not to mention: Koto can be used once a decade unless one has Senju Hashirama's cells...Tobi does. Why would he give up his now endlessly spamable eye to someone so they can protect the village he tried to destroy?
http://www.mangareader.net/93-47008-13/naruto/chapter-482.html
He also refers to it as Shisui's eye instead of my eye. Which is very awkward in my humble opinion.
That and couple with the flashbacks that Shisui really doesn't look very old whereas the few images of Tobi suggest he is very old.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/550/11He apparently trusted Itachi with his eye to protect the village. If he wanted to do destroy the village, why bother?
We are only talking about Shisui's personality or motivations, by the way...not Madara/Tobi.
So we have one character with second hand information about Shisui (that I already knew about before posting my "almost nothing" statement).
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not to mention: Koto can be used once a decade unless one has Senju Hashirama's cells...Tobi does. Why would he give up his now endlessly spamable eye to someone so they can protect the village he tried to destroy?
I am not sure how this has to do with anything from the post I just made to you.
This is what you said:
"It also doesn't make much sense as far as the characters of Tobi and Shisui go."
This is what I said in response to that:
"Well, I'll have to say your statement about it not making sense does not make sense: we know pretty much nothing about Shisui's character motivations."
But to actually address your post:
Also, "endlessly spammable" is not accurate. Just having Senju cells is not going to make it endlessly spammable. Unless you have evidence that means anything other than "it shortens the cool down time"?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
http://www.mangareader.net/93-47008-13/naruto/chapter-482.htmlHe also refers to it as Shisui's eye instead of my eye. Which is very awkward in my humble opinion.
That and couple with the flashbacks that Shisui really doesn't look very old whereas the few images of Tobi suggest he is very old.
You also missed the part where I posted that he referred to his eye/eyes as "Madara's power", as well. He did that well over a hundred chapters before it was revealed that Tobi may not be Madara.
Why can't he be using the third person? 🙂
If it turns out the he is Shisui, will you be mad, bro?
I don't think it's possible because Itachi grew up with Shisui. He physically...grew...up...with Itachi. So there's no way. Then there's the problem of people being able to recognize the chakra, and easily: they woudl have recognized Shisui's eye chakra in Tobi when he showed up to the Kage summit.
Bam.
False idea about Tobi being Shisui.
But then "Space time jutsu!"
Still doesn't work because of my chakra argument. WEEEEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHEHEH poop
Originally posted by dadudemon
We are only talking about Shisui's personality or motivations, by the way...not Madara/Tobi.So we have one character with second hand information about Shisui (that I already knew about before posting my "almost nothing" statement).
Tobi wanted to destroy Konoha, Shisui wanted to protected it according to someone very close to him. These two do not go hand in hand.
*snippet*
Cut out all the useless stuff.
If Tobi is Shisui's eye and gave it up, then it would be a plot hole. A huge one. Tobi has Hashi's cells. A whole garden of them actually. Koto is by far one of if not the most haxxed techs in the series and it can be spammable(at least in comparison to how useful it is otherwise) through use of said cells. Why would Tobi give up his eye to Itachi even though he clearly wanted to destroy Konoha and clearly wanted Shisui's eye from Danzo?
Originally posted by dadudemon
You also missed the part where I posted that he referred to his eye/eyes as "Madara's power", as well. He did that well over a hundred chapters before it was revealed that Tobi may not be Madara.Why can't he be using the third person? 🙂
Because it makes nil sense in the context. Calling his power "Madara's Power" makes sense because, big shocker, he isn't Madara. Calling it Shisui's eye makes sense because, big shocker, he isn't Shisui. In order for him to really be either person, he would have to refer to things of his own possession in the 3rd person, which isn't conventional and doesn't flow with how he normally talks or thinks to himself.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Tobi wanted to destroy Konoha, Shisui wanted to protected it according to someone very close to him. These two do not go hand in hand.
There are several corrections you need to make: Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now. In fact, when did he ever say he wanted to destroy Konoha?
A third party is the one that said Shisui wanted to protect Konoha, not Shisui himself. Itachi has lied in the past, by the way. We can trust him about what Shisui, of course...but you created an incorrect contradiction: no contraidiction exists.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cut out all the useless stuff.
That makes no sense for you to say: that's what I was telling you in almost direct terms. 😬
You just responded with "I know you are but what am I?" facepalm
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If Tobi is Shisui's eye and gave it up, then it would be a plot hole. A huge one. Tobi has Hashi's cells. A whole garden of them actually. Koto is by far one of if not the most haxxed techs in the series and it can be spammable(at least in comparison to how useful it is otherwise) through use of said cells. Why would Tobi give up his eye to Itachi even though he clearly wanted to destroy Konoha and clearly wanted Shisui's eye from Danzo?
More incorrect information, of course. It is not spammable. Prove that it is spammable like Tsukyomi or something....because the only thing we read was senju cells lessened the cool down time...not that it makes it spammable every few seconds.
Additionally, where has Tobi ever stated or implied that he wanted to destroy Konoha? When? When he came to it when Naruto was born...he was trying to steal the Kyuubi...not destroy Konoha.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Because it makes nil sense in the context. Calling his power "Madara's Power" makes sense because, big shocker, he isn't Madara.
We do not know that, yet. Additionally, he referred to himself as Madara multiple times, so your point is invalid.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
In order for him to really be either person, he would have to refer to things of his own possession in the 3rd person, which isn't conventional and doesn't flow with how he normally talks or thinks to himself.
Well, since you're wrong about one major fact of trying to support your position, then, no, that's not a correct conclusion. He has referred to his eye/s in the third person in the past. Doing so about shisui's eye, if he is Shisui, would not be out of character.
Argue against my points instead of making incorrect statements.
My point is: he can't be shisui because we know what Shisui's chakra looks like (someone in the manga does) and Tobi was not recognized when he showed up just moments later.
Originally posted by dadudemon
There are several corrections you need to make: Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now. In fact, when did he ever say he wanted to destroy Konoha?A third party is the one that said Shisui wanted to protect Konoha, not Shisui himself. Itachi has lied in the past, by the way. We can trust him about what Shisui, of course...but you created an incorrect contradiction: no contraidiction exists.
....How about the fact that he tried to destroy it in the past? But if you must have a statement...
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-7/naruto/chapter-501.html
And judging by things said in the during the more recent past...
http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-17/naruto/chapter-404.html
He seems to want to still destroy it. Which makes sense given how he is using Sasuke.
Why? Going by what someone said about Shisui, he doesn't want to destroy Konoha. Tobi not only states he wants to crush the leaf in the past, he seems perfectly content to let Sasuke and Pain do it now. And even during a war, he still holds a special vendetta against the Will of Fire.
Originally posted by dadudemon
More incorrect information, of course. It is not spammable. Prove that it is spammable like Tsukyomi or something....because the only thing we read was senju cells lessened the cool down time...not that it makes it spammable every few seconds.Additionally, where has Tobi ever stated or implied that he wanted to destroy Konoha? When? When he came to it when Naruto was born...he was trying to steal the Kyuubi...not destroy Konoha.
It is spammable when it goes from 10 years to 1 day for cool time. Actually, it might even go down more for Tobi since he has more Hashi cells than Danzo. To put this in perspective, he could have gotten all the Bijuu is roughly 9 days with this tech.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-7/naruto/chapter-501.html
"I came to rip the Nine tails from your stomach and use it to crush the Leaf."
You could make the argument that he was lying but considering what he did two seconds later, I'd say he was telling the truth. Not that there couldn't be some ulterior motive I suppose that he didn't reveal, like framing the Uchiha. But what he does goes along quite well with what he says he is going to do, so until further notice, this is what we're going with.
Originally posted by dadudemon
We do not know that, yet. Additionally, he referred to himself as Madara multiple times, so your point is invalid.
And it is implied he is lying and Madara doesn't refer to Tobi as "Me" but "Him" suggesting they are not the same person.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, since you're wrong about one major fact of trying to support your position, then, no, that's not a correct conclusion. He has referred to his eye/s in the third person in the past. Doing so about shisui's eye, if he is Shisui, would not be out of character.Argue against my points instead of making incorrect statements.
My point is: he can't be shisui because we know what Shisui's chakra looks like (someone in the manga does) and Tobi was not recognized when he showed up just moments later.
He also refers to Nagato's Rinnegan as his own because he gave it to him. This is something he states several times, including around Kabuto and Zetsu, who more than likely know who he is. He doesn't have to lie to anyone.
Ao was the one who recognized Shisui's chakra. Ao left before Tobi showed up. He could not have seen his chakra.
Edit: Of course, Danzo or Itachi would recognize his chakra if it were Shisui's.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
His soul happens to be bound at the moment, so good luck with that. Besides, you're making Kabuto smarter than he actually is. vin
Nah. Was a **** up.Not really. Why do you think that? His comment about Edo Tensei?
Genjutsu says hai.
Not really. Again, so far, he's been the only one to make Tobi shit his pants. 😛
Nah. Was awesomeness. Much better than Minato's. awesome
Kind of.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Genjutsu says hai.
Not really. Again, so far, he's been the only one to make Tobi shit his pants. 😛
Nah. Was awesomeness. Much better than Minato's. awesomeKind of.
He needs Koto. :3
And he has consistently been stupid since. I think he just accidentally found Madara's body. Which, now that I think about it, how the **** did he find it?
Eh. He was around the time the creator of the technique lived. Since he was allied with Konoha for a time, he might have asked about it. I'd be curious personally.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Cause if he did that, he would get Itachi back...probably 😐Wonder how Hashirama finally died. Considering how powerful he was.
Yeah that is oddly convinient. Especially since ninja seem so adamant about keeping secrets hidden and stuff.
Or not, since he has broken free from the control. Which makes me wonder several things.
Killed in war apparently. I like to think Tobi did it.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel[/B][/QUOTE]
....How about the fact that he tried to destroy it in the past? But if you must have a statement...http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-7/naruto/chapter-501.html
"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And judging by things said in the during the more recent past...http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-17/naruto/chapter-404.html
He seems to want to still destroy it. Which makes sense given how he is using Sasuke.
No, he's talking about getting the 9-tails. 😐
Here's the previous page to the one you quoted.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-16/naruto/chapter-404.html
Tell me the truth: were you going out of your way to be dishonest? It seems like it to me. I'm not a "new guy". It's me: dadudemon. The dude that argues about everything but still admits when he's wrong.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Why? Going by what someone said about Shisui, he doesn't want to destroy Konoha..
I said this: "Tobi, who has lied many times in the past,"
So if he was undercover in Konoha as Shisui, do tell me why he would openly say he's going to destroy Konoha?
The whole thing about "blowing your cover" isn't flashing through you mind, even a little? 🙂
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Tobi not only states he wants to crush the leaf in the past, he seems perfectly content to let Sasuke and Pain do it now. And even during a war, he still holds a special vendetta against the Will of Fire.
I addressed this point already. But here's another one for you.
Go to the bottom: "Remember, at this point, I had a grudge against the Leaf and Uchiha."
http://www.mangareader.net/93-405-8/naruto/chapter-400.html
That's past tense. No grudge anymore. lulz.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It is spammable when it goes from 10 years to 1 day for cool time. Actually, it might even go down more for Tobi since he has more Hashi cells than Danzo. To put this in perspective, he could have gotten all the Bijuu is roughly 9 days with this tech.
Nah. That's not spammable. That's still a sparing use jutsu.
Do you have anything that says it is brought to one day? 🙂
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
http://www.mangareader.net/93-55203-7/naruto/chapter-501.html"I came to rip the Nine tails from your stomach and use it to crush the Leaf."
You could make the argument that he was lying but considering what he did two seconds later, I'd say he was telling the truth. Not that there couldn't be some ulterior motive I suppose that he didn't reveal, like framing the Uchiha. But what he does goes along quite well with what he says he is going to do, so until further notice, this is what we're going with..
No, you'll go with this:
"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."
"Go to the bottom: "Remember, at this point, I had a grudge against the Leaf and Uchiha."
http://www.mangareader.net/93-405-8/naruto/chapter-400.html
That's past tense. No grudge anymore. lulz."
HA! 😄
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And it is implied he is lying and Madara doesn't refer to Tobi as "Me" but "Him" suggesting they are not the same person.
And Naruto never referred to his clones with "you" ever, right?
Pronouns and third person references are not enough since we have "one" each. If you consider that each "half" of himself has lived apart for many years, they would be different in many ways as their experiences would have changed Tobi compared to the original.
Let's stick with my reason: chakra was sensed and not matched by a chakra sensor. Bam. End of discussion.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He also refers to Nagato's Rinnegan as his own because he gave it to him. This is something he states several times, including around Kabuto and Zetsu, who more than likely know who he is. He doesn't have to lie to anyone.
To me, you're making the case for why it is Madara.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Ao was the one who recognized Shisui's chakra. Ao left before Tobi showed up. He could not have seen his chakra.
DAMMMNNIT!
So I guess they are the same person.
Wait, not! I had another good reason: Itachi and Shisui grew up together. Shisui grew from a kid to an adult.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
It's not like Tobirama was that effective anyway. But as they say there's strength in numbers.
To be fair, we don't know *how* strong he was in comparison to the big 2. Strong enough to be Kage at the least.
And he did invent Edo.
I wonder if he fought Izuna a lot...
I wonder exactly what specific power the Senju get anyway. I mean there supposed to be a tree clan yet Hashirama was the only Senju with Mokuton. I also wonder why Madara nor Danzo bothered to use Senju cells from someone not completely desecrated.....Tobirama comes to mind.
Seems to be a *ton* of chakra and strong physical abilities.
Hashirama is probably used because one, his is the strongest, and two, is an actual elemental kekkei genkai, which are all awesome (seriously, we have not seen a weak one yet).
Hm... also it being wood, and thus alive, may be why they have samples of it to use anyway. Tobirama likely didn't leave as much in the way of tissue samples.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He needs Koto. :3
And he has consistently been stupid since. I think he just accidentally found Madara's body. Which, now that I think about it, how the **** did he find it?Eh. He was around the time the creator of the technique lived. Since he was allied with Konoha for a time, he might have asked about it. I'd be curious personally.
Not for Kabuto. vin
Only as far as his control of his ET pawns is concerned.
Orochimaru.
Or he probably saw it in action I guess. Still, it's the kind of thing I'd expect him to do, help with the creation of a tech like that.
Originally posted by dadudemonNah. That's not spammable. That's still a sparing use jutsu.
Do you have anything that says it is brought to one day? 🙂
It isn't once a day. It's a shorter period of time.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-29786-10/naruto/chapter-461.html
Still not spammable though. Insta-win on the other hand.
Originally posted by Q99
Seems to be a *ton* of chakra and strong physical abilities.Hashirama is probably used because one, his is the strongest, and two, is an actual elemental kekkei genkai, which are all awesome (seriously, we have not seen a weak one yet).
Eh, it's just strong physical abilities. Of course, having a lot of stamina will increase your chakra levels, but not by a 'ton'.
It's actually three-fold. Not only does he have Mokuton and the strongest chakra amongst the Senju by a considerable degree, but also his ability to control Bijuu.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It isn't once a day. It's a shorter period of time.http://www.mangareader.net/93-29786-10/naruto/chapter-461.html
Still not spammable though. Insta-win on the other hand.
That clearly says once a day. "It's nothing I can use multiple times a day."
That's once a day.
Additionally, is it really that strong? I would think it is weaker when Danzo uses it than when Itachi uses it.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
It's actually three-fold. Not only does he have Mokuton and the strongest chakra amongst the Senju by a considerable degree, but also his ability to control Bijuu.
That's part of why I thought the Senju were so strong: their will of fire and their control over stuff.
Did anyone else laugh at the second panel and think it had turned into Itachi-Naruto pronz?
http://www.mangareader.net/93-408-10/naruto/chapter-403.html
Gurgle that "crow" Naruto. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."
If you're going to dismiss everything he says as a lie, why bother asking me if he ever said that he wanted to destroy Konoha? For all we know, Tobi is trying to open a gate to the Soul Society so he can break out Aizen, so the two of them can go visit Thomas the Tank and go for a ride.
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he's talking about getting the 9-tails. 😐Here's the previous page to the one you quoted.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-16/naruto/chapter-404.html
He was planning to get the Kyuubi before Itachi's death. Hell, he assigned Itachi himself to get it. Konoha being off limits clearly means that Tobi is not to touch the village.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-14/naruto/chapter-404.html
"We share the same goals."
http://www.mangareader.net/93-407-16/naruto/chapter-402.html
vin
Originally posted by dadudemon
I said this: "Tobi, who has lied many times in the past,"So if he was undercover in Konoha as Shisui, do tell me why he would openly say he's going to destroy Konoha?
The whole thing about "blowing your cover" isn't flashing through you mind, even a little? 🙂
But in order for us to assume that Shisui is lying, we must assume he is Tobi without proof.
Not that it matters. Shisui tore out his eye and gave it to Itachi, asking him to protect Konoha. Actions speak louder than words. If Shisui gave Itachi his last eye and left him the plea to protect Konoha, I'm inclined to believe this is true.
Just as I'm inclined to believe that when Tobi says "I'mma **** Konoha up" and then he proceeds to **** Konoha up, I'll believe him.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Nah. That's not spammable. That's still a sparing use jutsu.Do you have anything that says it is brought to one day? 🙂
It is compared to it's normal cool down time.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-29786-10/naruto/chapter-461.html
Not multiple times a day. Makes me believe it is just once a day. However, considering the eye started working during the Sasuke fight, the eye's actual cool off time would be a few hours. How many? Dunno.
But this is skirting around the topic. Shisui, were he Tobi undercover, had the most powerful genjutsu technique of all time and the means to make it into the most effective jutsu ever. Shisui chose to give this eye away, even though assuming he is Tobi, that would be ridiculously stupid. He has the Senju cells and the perfect eyes. He could rule the world with just those actually.
Originally posted by dadudemon
"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."
Again, if you're going to take everything Tobi said as a lie, why bother asking me to find it? What Tobi says and what he does go hand in hand together. He said he was gonna destroy it and he tried. He was not there just for the Kyuubi. Had that been the case, he could have left after getting it. Again, there could be some ulterior motive like framing the Uchiha but it hasn't been made clear so I'm going to assume there isn't.
More to the point: Tobi says he plans to destroy Konoha. You think this is a lie. Shisui says he wants Itachi to protect Konoha. You think this could also be a lie. Both statements however can be supported by the persons actions which are harder to call lies.
And no, I will not bother replying to the next response.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That clearly says once a day. "It's nothing I can use multiple times a day."That's once a day.
Additionally, is it really that strong? I would think it is weaker when Danzo uses it than when Itachi uses it.
Eh, I see 'multiple' as 3 or more.
Twice a day qualifies, which is what happened in the manga. Danzo had the chance of using Koto again.
Mifune didn't even know he was being controlled, and it doesn't seem to have a duration-related limit. Likely Sasuke would have had to protect Konoha for his entire life.
I think it'd be the same strength as far as the genjutsu itself is concerned. Since it is Shisui's eye and all.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's part of why I thought the Senju were so strong: their will of fire and their control over stuff.
As far as the clan itself was concerned, they were supposed to be well-versed in everything combat-related, much like the Uchiha. Don't know if they had "control over stuff". Hashirama was a diamond among them.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Did anyone else laugh at the second panel and think it had turned into Itachi-Naruto pronz?http://www.mangareader.net/93-408-10/naruto/chapter-403.html
Gurgle that "crow" Naruto. 🙂
I laughed, but not because I thought it was porn. I laughed because it was just funny. Besides, Itachi is tied up with Sasuke. He's not the cheating type. uhuh