The Official Naruto series Thread

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
If you're going to dismiss everything he says as a lie, why bother asking me if he ever said that he wanted to destroy Konoha? For all we know, Tobi is trying to open a gate to the Soul Society so he can break out Aizen, so the two of them can go visit Thomas the Tank and go for a ride.

"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He was planning to get the Kyuubi before Itachi's death. Hell, he assigned Itachi himself to get it. Konoha being off limits clearly means that Tobi is not to touch the village

http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-14/naruto/chapter-404.html

"We share the same goals."

[url]http://www.mangareader.net/93-407-16/naruto/chapter-402.html

vin.

Now, now...stay in context.

The goal was to get the Kyuubi.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-16/naruto/chapter-404.html

And Madara's other goal was to "get" sasuke.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-409-18/naruto/chapter-404.html

Those are the two "goals" outlined.

Do you honestly think Madara/Tobi didn't molest Sasuke when he had him tied up and passed out?

But, for real, the same "goals".

Lastly, Madara already said this:

"Go to the bottom: "Remember, at this point, I had a grudge against the Leaf and Uchiha."

http://www.mangareader.net/93-405-8...hapter-400.html

That's past tense. No grudge anymore. lulz."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But in order for us to assume that Shisui is lying, we must assume he is Tobi without proof.

The entire premise is that tobi is Shisui so that's a tautological argument.

"We can't assume Shisui is Tobi because Shisui isn't Tobi."

That's not how assumptions work.

"Assume Tobi is Shisui.

Tobi Lies.

All of Shisui's actions are now suspect...all two of them. lol!"

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not that it matters. Shisui tore out his eye and gave it to Itachi, asking him to protect Konoha. Actions speak louder than words. If Shisui gave Itachi his last eye and left him the plea to protect Konoha, I'm inclined to believe this is true.

How about an even better explanation:

There's no way Shisui could be Tobi because Itachi could have easily seen that they were the same person.

The argument you put above does not work because we must suspect Shisui's only two actions as "deceptive" or lies when considering him to be Tobi.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Just as I'm inclined to believe that when Tobi says "I'mma **** Konoha up" and then he proceeds to **** Konoha up, I'll believe him.

But he didn't. Pain did. 🙂

Sasuke never got the chance.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It is compared to it's normal cool down time.

http://www.mangareader.net/93-29786-10/naruto/chapter-461.html

Not multiple times a day. Makes me believe it is just once a day. However, considering the eye started working during the Sasuke fight, the eye's actual cool off time would be a few hours. How many? Dunno.

No, it's once a day. It was not used more than once in a single day.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But this is skirting around the topic. Shisui, were he Tobi undercover, had the most powerful genjutsu technique of all time and the means to make it into the most effective jutsu ever. Shisui chose to give this eye away, even though assuming he is Tobi, that would be ridiculously stupid. He has the Senju cells and the perfect eyes. He could rule the world with just those actually.

To the first part: that's incorrect: the sound genjutsu jiraiya used with ma and pa is more powerful because it is like Tsukyomi but works by just hearing it (versus seeing it). Shisui's eye sucks because it only works once every 10 years on one person.

Also, Infinite Tsukyomi is far superior to both for obvious reasons.

And you're making the case for Tobi being Shisuis: Shisui gave his eye away....hmmm...where has Tobi done that before in the past....hmmm...anyone? Bueler? Bueler?

I want to say something hilarious but it is too mean and would destroy the "spirit of Konoha".

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Again, if you're going to take everything Tobi said as a lie, hy bother asking me to find it? What Tobi says and what he does go hand in hand together. He said he was gonna destroy it and he tried. He was not there just for the Kyuubi. Had that been the case, he could have left after getting it. Again, there could be some ulterior motive like framing the Uchiha but it hasn't been made clear so I'm going to assume there isn't.

You missed the point, again. lol

"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
More to the point: Tobi says he plans to destroy Konoha. You think this is a lie.

"Tobi, who has lied many times in the past, has not held the position of wanting to destroy Konoha for quite some time, now."

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Shisui says he wants Itachi to protect Konoha. You think this could also be a lie. Both statements however can be supported by the persons actions which are harder to call lies.

'The entire premise is that tobi is Shisui so that's a tautological argument.

"We can't assume Shisui is Tobi because Shisui isn't Tobi."

That's not how assumptions work.

"Assume Tobi is Shisui.

Tobi Lies.

All of Shisui's actions are now suspect...all two of them. lol!"'

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And no, I will not bother replying to the next response.

I did not know you were getting butthurt from our conversation.

So I'll not hold back...

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Shisui chose to give this eye away, even though assuming he is Tobi, that would be ridiculously stupid.

What's stupid is I have argued multiple ways (one was wrong) that Shisui is not Tobi and you've ignored them each and every time. It is not as though we agree. You're arguing about nothing.

What's stupid is you holding the above position. It is utterly and completely stupid because Tobi/Madara has given away the most powerful eyes already. Remember....Nagato? bwhahahahahaha

Didn't think that one through, didja sport? 🙂

And, no, he wants to rule the world in actuality, not figuratively. He wants the infinite Tsukyomi. Meow.

Hopefully, you read this post and then start crying. Then shake your fists at the ceiling and say, "Curse you Kakarot!"

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Eh, I see 'multiple' as 3 or more.

How about two or more?

"1. having or involving more than one part, individual, etc: he had multiple injuries "

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Twice a day qualifies, which is what happened in the manga. Danzo had the chance of using Koto again.

Mifune didn't even know he was being controlled, and it doesn't seem to have a duration-related limit. Likely Sasuke would have had to protect Konoha for his entire life.
I think it'd be the same strength as far as the genjutsu itself is concerned. Since it is Shisui's eye and all.

That's not correct: as soon as Danzo stopped flexing his chakra, it stopped working and Mifune got his control back.

The reason it is not as strong as Itachi's or direct control of Shisui: Danzo never shows us using it for more than just subtle things. He may do that to not be obvious...but he may also have weaker control: he can only suggest things that are not too far fetched because he doesn't have enough control over it.

Now, you may think I do not have a precedent for that. I do. Danzo's Izanagi was weaker than a real Uchiha's. So were his senju jutsus.

So why would his only other stolen tech be at "maximum poooowwaaaaahhhh!"

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
As far as the clan itself was concerned, they were supposed to be well-versed in everything combat-related, much like the Uchiha. Don't know if they had "control over stuff". Hashirama was a diamond among them.

Well, the Uzumaki's had the seals. So it is just down to lots of chakra, physical strength, and control over most to all of the bijuu.

That makes them the most powerful clan, actually.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
I laughed, but not because I thought it was porn. I laughed because it was just funny. Besides, Itachi is tied up with Sasuke. He's not the cheating type. uhuh

Troof.

If Danzo's was weaker, it might be due to the lack of eye contact between him and Mifune.

Originally posted by dadudemon
How about two or more?

"1. having or involving more than one part, individual, etc: he had multiple injuries "

Whatever man. Danzo still had the ability to use it twice, if not thrice, in one day, so I'm right.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's not correct: as soon as Danzo stopped flexing his chakra, it stopped working and Mifune got his control back.

The reason it is not as strong as Itachi's or direct control of Shisui: Danzo never shows us using it for more than just subtle things. He may do that to not be obvious...but he may also have weaker control: he can only suggest things that are not too far fetched because he doesn't have enough control over it.

Now, you may think I do not have a precedent for that. I do. Danzo's Izanagi was weaker than a real Uchiha's. So were his senju jutsus.

So why would his only other stolen tech be at "maximum poooowwaaaaahhhh!"

Indeed, it stopped working when he wanted it to stop working. So thanks for re-proving my point.

mmmI guess it could be weaker than Itachi's/Shisui's version was. I'll think about it. 😛
On the contrary, his Izanagi was stronger than a regular Uchiha's, because the duration was extended for each eye. Compared to Tobi, who also has Senju cells, it was weaker.
He didn't have Senju jutsus, just Wood. It wasn't even Wood Release.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, the Uzumaki's had the seals. So it is just down to lots of chakra, physical strength, and control over most to all of the bijuu.

That makes them the most powerful clan, actually.

Well, they were feared for their seals, but combat-wise, those two were at the top.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Whatever man. Danzo still had the ability to use it twice, if not thrice, in one day, so I'm right.

I disagree.

This is one point I'd like to be proven wrong on.

I still do not see him using it twice. He used it once...said he could not use it multiple times in one day...so it has to be once.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Indeed, it stopped working when he wanted it to stop working. So thanks for re-proving my point.

I didn't prove your point. Danzo does not have unlimited chakra and using a non-blood KG drains chakra faster than if you were part of the bloodline. So he would have eventually faded his tech, anyway, as he ran low on stamina. 🙂

Meaning, it is not indefinite like Itachi's. 🙂

🙂

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
mmmI guess it could be weaker than Itachi's/Shisui's version was. I'll think about it. 😛

HOLY BIT SHALLS! It is rare for people around these parts to concede jack diddly squat. Consider it and I'll consider changing it to "more than once a day".

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
On the contrary, his Izanagi was stronger than a regular Uchiha's, because the duration was extended for each eye. Compared to Tobi, who also has Senju cells, it was weaker.
He didn't have Senju jutsus, just Wood. It wasn't even Wood Release.

Was it really? I did not see anything that suggested it was stronger than an Uchiha using it. He just had more chances to use them...but that's like having 9 bullets versus 2 bullets.

I thought the Izanagi thing was one jutsu that he got from Senju (it doesn't work without both?) and the wood release was the other. He could not control it...but it was still woody.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Well, they were feared for their seals, but combat-wise, those two were at the top.

Those two means Uchiha and Senju, right?

If not, I will pwn you just to be right about something. 313

He used it once, but felt it had recharged by the end of the Sasuke fight.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree.

This is one point I'd like to be proven wrong on.

I still do not see him using it twice. He used it once...said he could not use it multiple times in one day...so it has to be once.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c480/12.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c480/13.html

🙂

Originally posted by dadudemon
I didn't prove your point. Danzo does not have unlimited chakra and using a non-blood KG drains chakra faster than if you were part of the bloodline. So he would have eventually faded his tech, anyway, as he ran low on stamina. 🙂

Meaning, it is not indefinite like Itachi's. 🙂

🙂

Ahh, okay then.

Originally posted by dadudemon
HOLY BIT SHALLS! It is rare for people around these parts to concede jack diddly squat. Consider it and I'll consider changing it to "more than once a day".

Meh, I'm inclined to agree since we have that whole "Sharingan is a tool whose strength depends on the user" stuff from Zetsu.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Was it really? I did not see anything that suggested it was stronger than an Uchiha using it. He just had more chances to use them...but that's like having 9 bullets versus 2 bullets.

I thought the Izanagi thing was one jutsu that he got from Senju (it doesn't work without both?) and the wood release was the other. He could not control it...but it was still woody.

The higher number of eyes isn't really a big factor. The duration of Izanagi for each eye was extended by Orochimaru though. It varied for regular Uchiha users, but the duration was supposed to be 'for a moment'.

Dunno. Tobi first states to himself that Uchihas could use Izanagi for a brief moment at the cost of the eye being sealed forever.
Then he tells Konan that it's only available to those with the power of Uchiha & Senju, and that only those that could control Senju DNA could use the complete version.
Personally, I think that the 'brief moment' version is available to Uchihas with the Sharingan but no Senju DNA, while an Izanagi with a much longer duration can only be used by those with both.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Those two means Uchiha and Senju, right?

If not, I will pwn you just to be right about something. 313

Nah, the Sarutobi & Yamanaka Clans. The latter could control anyone, while the former were just ossum. vin

Seriously though, yes, I was talking about the Senju & Uchiha.

Originally posted by dadudemon
To the first part: it is possible that he had those eyes when he fought Minato. He gave them up, later, when he left. He has been collecting eyes for a long time, apparantly. In fact, he could change out his eyes at any point as we have already seen.

To the second part: yeah, that's what I mean when "Tobi was around when Itachi was just a kid"; he attacked the village and fought Minato. It could be that shortly after that attack, he joined up?

It doesn't work because Shisui apparantly grew up with Itachi. If that occured, then we have no precedent for Tobi/Madara reverting to a child like state and then growing up.

1. An unknown villain attacks Konoha (possibly, the original Madara?) This one also somehow bestowed Rinnegan on Nagato, so, he could be the Madara that was just resurrected.
2. Later on he dies, and a now grown up Shisui has assumed him as a double identity, this version was involved with Yagura and used kotoamatsukami on him. He lost an eye to Danzo, faked death, and permanently assumed the Madara identity. Then he got Senju DNA later, learned Izanagi, and really wanted his eye back.

I think the current Tobi (possibly Shisui) was an apprentice with the original Madara or in some way in cahoots with him.

On the argument "Would his koto have been enhanced":

Easy, he simply did not have the senju cells at the time. He gave away his eye that wouldn't be usable for ten years, only to later know he could have used it, once he got the cells. Then he was desperate to get it back.

On the argument "people would recognize his chakra":

He has already lost his eyes, arms, and who knows what else, and also gave himself senju DNA; his body could be so modified it doesn't even seem like Shisui's anymore. We know from Aoi's encounter with Danzo that transplanted body parts appear with the "signature" of the original.

On the "why is he old" argument:

Well, I am pretty much just coming up with baseless theories here, but one way it could work, is if he got a new head. Hey, Orochimaru did some strange things, and this guy seems to have similar medical abilities.

i notice that personality wise black zetsu is more like tobi in his "madara" guise, and white zetsu is a lot like tobi when he was acting like a moron.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c480/12.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c480/13.html

🙂

My pwn...hurts....so .......good. pained

He never used it, though. He neither used Izanagi nor did he use the Shisui genjutsu on Madara. Later, Madara remarks that Danzo didn't use Izanagi in time.

I always took that scene to mean that Danzo was using Shisui's eye like Kakashi does: for the battle precog benefit. Combined with Madara's words, he was going to use it as an izanagi to save himself one last time.

Unrelated:

Hiruzen said he was the "best of all of us" even in front of the second hokage.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c481/6.html

WTF? 😆

He's a little full of himself...

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Ahh, okay then.

Cool beans.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Meh, I'm inclined to agree since we have that whole "Sharingan is a tool whose strength depends on the user" stuff from Zetsu.

And I have no choice but to agree to the shisui mind control trick since Danzo fully intended to use it or Izanagi as his last stand. So, meh...it evens out.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The higher number of eyes isn't really a big factor. The duration of Izanagi for each eye was extended by Orochimaru though. It varied for regular Uchiha users, but the duration was supposed to be 'for a moment'.

So why is Tobi's much longer?

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Dunno. Tobi first states to himself that Uchihas could use Izanagi for a brief moment at the cost of the eye being sealed forever.
Then he tells Konan that it's only available to those with the power of Uchiha & Senju, and that only those that could control Senju DNA could use the complete version.

Right, meaning it was not really usable by the Uchiha unless they pulled a Tobi or Danzo combo thing.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Personally, I think that the 'brief moment' version is available to Uchihas with the Sharingan but no Senju DNA, while an Izanagi with a much longer duration can only be used by those with both.

We have never seen Izanagi used by just a plain uchiha, though. Danzo may be wrong or lying.

So why is Tobi's much longer?

Because his Senju power was much stronger and more controlled than Danzou's. His sharingan, too.

Originally posted by dadudemon
My pwn...hurts....so .......good. pained

He never used it, though. He neither used Izanagi nor did he use the Shisui genjutsu on Madara. Later, Madara remarks that Danzo didn't use Izanagi in time.

I always took that scene to mean that Danzo was using Shisui's eye like Kakashi does: for the battle precog benefit. Combined with Madara's words, he was going to use it as an izanagi to save himself one last time.

Unrelated:

Hiruzen said he was the "best of all of us" even in front of the second hokage.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v51/c481/6.html

WTF? 😆

He's a little full of himself...

He didn't use it because he didn't get the chance. He was too slow in deciding what to do with Shisui's sharingan, but he pretty much states that he would use Shisui's genjutsu on Tobi.

That's coz he's a Sarutobi. His father was ossum enough that the main character of the manga was named after him. vin

Originally posted by dadudemon
So why is Tobi's much longer?

Right, meaning it was not really usable by the Uchiha unless they pulled a Tobi or Danzo combo thing.

We have never seen Izanagi used by just a plain uchiha, though. Danzo may be wrong or lying.

Because he can control Hashirama's DNA.

It was a forbidden Uchiha jutsu though. Besides, Tobi thought Danzou could still use Izanagi even after he had lost his Senju DNA.

My impression is, no Senju chakra? You get, like, 2 seconds. Some Senju chakra? You get 30-80 seconds, like Danzo.

Lotsa Senju chakra? 10 minutes, or more.

I think that you are correct. We never saw an Uchiha use it, but, it is considered the secret forbidden technique of the uchiha, so, presumably people had done it before. Unless there were once a ton of senju/uchiha hybrids around, I can only infer pure Uchiha once could do it (and it was later forbidden, so no one's done it since).

Man, the senju and uchiha should have put their troubles aside and had kids together, they would have made the top clan hands down.

Originally posted by Q99
My impression is, no Senju chakra? You get, like, 2 seconds. Some Senju chakra? You get 30-80 seconds, like Danzo.

Lotsa Senju chakra? 10 minutes, or more.

Nearly similar to my view, though I'm not entirely convinced that the duration depends on the amount of Senju Chakra you have. In addition, the duration also depends on the Uchiha in question, as it varies from eye to eye, but since they usually do not have Senju DNA, it does not make a big difference at the lower levels.

What do you guys think Tobi's motivation/plan is?

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
What do you guys think Tobi's motivation/plan is?

he does seem like he's actually trying to gain the sage's power however, and logically he could do whatever he really wants after gaining it.

he needed nagato to synch mith gedo mazo, but now he actually has his power to do it himself (plus gets to keep his broken sharingan dojutsu) and is now looking to gain the last of the bijuu

A thought- if Tobi is Izuma, that'd also fit with his collecting of eyes and hating a good set of eyes to go to waste.

Who more than someone who lost their original set would have such a desire?

Originally posted by Q99
A thought- if Tobi is Izuma, that'd also fit with his collecting of eyes and hating a good set of eyes to go to waste.

Who more than someone who lost their original set would have such a desire?

Izuna you mean? I sure hope so. Because I have been calling him Izuna for ages...and I'm seriously too lazy to Google search.

But, yes, I put up the theory of him being alive and being Tobi, already. It was shot down by Demonic Phoenix, I think: we saw Izuna in a casket in his "dead" position or whatevs. So unless Madara revived him shortly after getting his Rinnigan, Izuna is dead. Wait....wait...that would explain a lot. Holy crap. You might be on to something.

If we assume Izuna was revived shortly before Madara died...and Madara told his lil-bro all about his plan to take revenge on Konoha, what Hashirama did to him, etc....then we see a clear motivation for Izuna to attack the leaf village when he did.

Perfect. It fits.

But it requires one really big assumption: that Madara revived his little bro.