Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
My problem with the Izuna theory is Izuna was supposed to be as strong as Madara. Yet Tobi seems...well, not as strong.
Just as strong as the pre-Eternal stage, probably well before Madara's height of strength.
And as dadudemon mentioned, without his own original EMS eyes either.
Hm, speaking of which, if it is Izuna I wonder who he got the space-warp eye from?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Problem there: Why not take Madara's eyes, which are really just Izuna's anyway? Madara would need to be within a general area of the guy to revive him so take those eyes.
They may have been lost when he died.
Also, they'd produce the normal abilities, I'd think. Susano'o and all that, since Madara doesn't warp.
Originally posted by Q99
Oh, it's gotta be someone good to have an ability like that. Probably some Uchiha hero went 'missing'...
I disagree: Obito was a shitty ninja. Not very good at anything. A Naruto type withOUT the ultra-fast genius learning ability. Obito was even a late bloomer with his eye...Obito lamented not having unlocked it sooner.
Yet, Kakashi unlocked MS with Obito's eye. That should prove that it is not the eye but the user of the eye that determines the power. A chunin should be enough. Just someone that showed promise.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Problem there: Why not take Madara's eyes, which are really just Izuna's anyway? Madara would need to be within a general area of the guy to revive him so take those eyes.
There's a problem with your logic: If Tobi is Izuna, he DID take Madara's eyes. He took them and gave them to Nagato. 😄
So now that you know he took them and gave them away...does that change your perspective on "Izuna is Tobi"?
Then how did he revive him? 😮
There's a problem with your logic: If Tobi is Izuna, he DID take Madara's eyes. He took them and gave them to Nagato.So now that you know he took them and gave them away...does that change your perspective on "Izuna is Tobi"?
Then he'd be walking around blind. :l
Well, I don't know this. Nor do I see why he'd give up teh Rinnegan.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Then how did he revive him? 😮
That question does not make sense.
If Madara revived Izuna shortly before he died...and then spilled the beans to his little bro...then Izuna took Madara's eyes from his corpse and implanted them into Nagato....why would you need to ask "then how did he revive him?"
You need to define "he" and "him" in your post in order for your question to make sense.
In the context of this conversation, it makes no sense. Your question is answered in the premise of why Izuna is around to begin with.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Then he'd be walking around blind. :l
I actually know what's up: if he was revived by the Rinnigan..then he'd get his eyes back.
Q99, there's no reason for Tobi/Izuna to have to get another set of eyes because he would have his own had he been revived/resurrected. His own eyes could be quite powerful such as a KG level of space-time jutsu and phasing his body out of this plane of existance (intangibility). That seems high-level for sharingan...so it should be fine.
Maybe Izuna doesn't use MS while in his "Tobi" guise because he doesn't want to drain his life-span for the eyes?
I dunno....maybe the ultimate plan WAS to put his brother's eyes in his eyes...we do see that he has one eye in his eye. So that may have been the ultimate plan. We know that he put them into Nagato to save his own body/chakra. Nagato's summoning of Gedo really drained the utter living shit out of him (literally).
I disagree: Obito was a shitty ninja. Not very good at anything. A Naruto type withOUT the ultra-fast genius learning ability. Obito was even a late bloomer with his eye...Obito lamented not having unlocked it sooner.Yet, Kakashi unlocked MS with Obito's eye. That should prove that it is not the eye but the user of the eye that determines the power. A chunin should be enough. Just someone that showed promise.
Hm, true enough. Just gotta find someone with that spark of greatness, rather than having to wait for them to develop it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That question does not make sense.If Madara revived Izuna shortly before he died...and then spilled the beans to his little bro...then Izuna took Madara's eyes from his corpse and implanted them into Nagato....why would you need to ask "then how did he revive him?"
You need to define "he" and "him" in your post in order for your question to make sense.
In the context of this conversation, it makes no sense. Your question is answered in the premise of why Izuna is around to begin with.
They may have been lost when he died.
Q99 started it. If Madara lost the Rinnegan, how could he revive someone?
I actually know what's up: if he was revived by the Rinnigan..then he'd get his eyes back.
Kakashi didn't.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Q99 started it. If Madara lost the Rinnegan, how could he revive someone?
Really?
But that doesn't make sense. Was it ever established that the sharingan had to be in a "live" person?
Actually, scratch that. We KNOW that the person does not have to be alive to harvest it for later use: Tobi was going to harvest Shisui's eye from Danzo's corpse.
So we know that the person does not have to be alive in order to harvest the eyes. Keep in mind that Tobi harvested the rinnigan from Nagato's corpse, as well. So after Madara revived his lil' bro...he could have passed. That may have been his very last thing. He may have left instructions for his lil' bro and that much is obvious: Madara seems to be aware of what Tobi is doing and makes reference to his/their plans. It may have been the plan for Izuna to take Madara's rinnigan, put it into Nagato (because Madara determined, beforehand, that Nagato was a nicely compatible host for those eyes) and then have Nagato revive Madara. In fact, that makes sense, now that I think about it. That's why Madara made reference to "nagato" when he was revived: he was aware that he was resurrected and at first thought it Nagato that finally got the power to do so.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Kakashi didn't.
It can be argued that Kakashi never died fully: he was in between the pure world and the impure world kind of like Limbo.
Additionally, Edo tensei seems to revive them with their eyes in place at the point of death: no reason to assume that the resurrection tech works differently. The rinnigan resurrection seems even more superior.
On top of that, you could have just found a plot hole rather than a reason to think that Izuna isn't Tobi.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Izuna you mean? I sure hope so. Because I have been calling him Izuna for ages...and I'm seriously too lazy to Google search.But, yes, I put up the theory of him being alive and being Tobi, already. It was shot down by Demonic Phoenix, I think: we saw Izuna in a casket in his "dead" position or whatevs. So unless Madara revived him shortly after getting his Rinnigan, Izuna is dead. Wait....wait...that would explain a lot. Holy crap. You might be on to something.
If we assume Izuna was revived shortly before Madara died...and Madara told his lil-bro all about his plan to take revenge on Konoha, what Hashirama did to him, etc....then we see a clear motivation for Izuna to attack the leaf village when he did.
Perfect. It fits.
But it requires one really big assumption: that Madara revived his little bro.
It wasn't shot down by me, but by AA. I started saying Tobi could be Izuna or a copy of Madara after Prime Madara was revealed to have been in the final casket.
In fact, Nagato resembles Prime Madara by quite a lot, especially in the way their hair is parted. And if Nagato is somehow Madara's son, it would also fit.
Here's another thing: If Izuna is really Tobi, then Izuna being in that casket wouldn't necessarily have to be true. Even the latter can be true without the former having to be.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
One requires DNA and a human sacrifice. The other merely needs the user to be in a general area close to the person they are reviving. One uses a living body which adjusts itself to the sould revived. The other merely uses their original body and returns the soul to it.
Rinne Tensei also has some form of regeneration attributed to it though.
Like ddm said, Konoha members would have been crushed, or had their necks snapped. Even Fukusaku, who was impaled shortly before he died, had no such injury when he was revived. And Kakashi had enough chakra to go after Naruto.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
One requires DNA and a human sacrifice. The other merely needs the user to be in a general area close to the person they are reviving. One uses a living body which adjusts itself to the sould revived. The other merely uses their original body and returns the soul to it.
You're pointing out the differences rather than the similarities. They are very similar to each other and the end result is the same: resurrection.
The main point to focus on is regeneration: both appear to regenerate people to the state they were upon death and it also regenerates missing junk such as eyes.
Why did Nagato get his Rinnigan back even though they were taken out of his body? There's no DNA for that. Why did they get their clothes? No DNA for that, either.
In any type of massive collapse system, you lose TONS of body parts. Lots of people would be missing all sorts of junk after Nagato farted on Konoha: yet, they got their limbs back.
The techs work similarly. Since they are the same author, it should be no surprise that they have similar outcomes...which is why Madara at first would confuse his resurrection as being via the Rinnigan rather than ET. His eyes were taken...by Tobi because Tobi is using one of his eyes (as far as we know). In order for Madara to be confusing ET for the Rinnigan resurrection, then you would have to assume that both obviously restore the person to the state that they were right at death. Madara has expert knowledge of both techs and has shown he does. So there's no reason to assume Madara was wrong: he saw with his eyes...and at first assumed it to be "GedÅ: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu"
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
Here's another thing: If Izuna is really Tobi, then Izuna being in that casket wouldn't necessarily have to be true. Even the latter can be true without the former having to be.
Your last statement does not make much sense.
Your latter statement is: "Izuna being in that casket would not necessarily have to be true". If the latter is true, and the former is not...then you end up with these two statements:
1. Izuna is not Tobi.
2. Izuna being in the casket is not true.
So both statements end up being false.
Did you intend to create that?
I think what you meant was this.
1. Izuna is not Tobi.
2. Izuna is in the Casket.
In that version, that makes sense because, yes, Izuna is dead and Izuna is not Tobi.
Essplain, comrad. Essplain it to me. 😄
Originally posted by dadudemon
You're pointing out the differences rather than the similarities. They are very similar to each other and the end result is the same: resurrection.
Well a normal katon and an Amaterasu will burn you. I wouldn't say they are very similar at all though. Scale, execution, chakra needed to preform it, etc.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The main point to focus on is regeneration: both appear to regenerate people to the state they were upon death and it also regenerates missing junk such as eyes.
Except the only person missing an eye revived by Rinne Tensei is Kakashi, who didn't get his normal eye back. I have no problem believing Rinne Tensei heals the wounds that initially killed the body I suppose but the similarities end there. For me anyway.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Why did Nagato get his Rinnigan back even though they were taken out of his body? There's no DNA for that. Why did they get their clothes? No DNA for that, either.
Well, Nagato was revived before the eyes were taken out of his body anyway. Itachi would have been a better example. Secondly, DNA wouldn't really work like that. In fiction land, having even a miniscule amount of DNA allows one to clone dinosaurs and shit. Having the DNA of Itachi would come with the genetic makeup of the Sharingan for example. In fact, this actually proves Nagato's Rinnegan can't be Madara's. If they were transplanted eyes, there wouldn't be in record of them in DNA, unless it was gotten specifically from those eyes. And in that case, it would merely revive Madara...Dun dun dun!
Granted, there are a few things that mess this up. Hanzo was revived with the poison sac, Madara sems to have gotten revived with Senju cells(though in this case, Kabuto specified that he did do something different for his Edo Tensei) and such. However, Kakuzu doesn't appear to have been revived with his transplanted hearts, getting the eye from Danzo would revive Shisui and not Danzo himself, etc.
Note: Seals seem to be revived with the soul, which is why Kimimaro and Hizashi still have them.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The techs work similarly. Since they are the same author, it should be no surprise that they have similar outcomes...which is why Madara at first would confuse his resurrection as being via the Rinnigan rather than ET. His eyes were taken...by Tobi because Tobi is using one of his eyes (as far as we know). In order for Madara to be confusing ET for the Rinnigan resurrection, then you would have to assume that both obviously restore the person to the state that they were right at death. Madara has expert knowledge of both techs and has shown he does. So there's no reason to assume Madara was wrong: he saw with his eyes...and at first assumed it to be "GedÅ: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu"
I was under the impression he got this mixed up because he was expecting to be revived by Rinne Tensei, not because he knew the difference. Madara should have said "Coffin? WTF!? They got it wrong!"