Neji was able to see all the bugs (or was that Kakashi? I don't remember) inside of Shino. Those look much smaller than the chakra streams.
But he was also focusing directly on one place with intensity. Doing the same with a Pain body seems like it'd, at best, gain a general direction.
And while larger, the streams are also probably a lot more diffuse.
Originally posted by Q99
But he was also focusing directly on one place with intensity. Doing the same with a Pain body seems like it'd, at best, gain a general direction.And while larger, the streams are also probably a lot more diffuse.
He did not have to focus on the spiderwebbing to see the chakra. He had to focus on the spiderwebbing to know precisely where to strike it to break it.
Meaning, that does not work to negate the fact that it is PIS. To further cement that point, the chakra is in big streams and in significant quantities. Regardless, Neji can see the tinest of chakra, as a 13 year old, from all directions.
Originally posted by dadudemon
http://www.mangareader.net/93-446-14/naruto/chapter-441.htmlNeji was able to see all the bugs (or was that Kakashi? I don't remember) inside of Shino. Those look much smaller than the chakra streams. It is very simply PIS. Kishimoto did explain why the chakra sensors (not the hyuga) could not trace it: the frequency of the chakra changed too rapidly to get a trace on it.
However, any stupid hyuga could have seen the streams of chakra and with ease and then be able to trace it to the origin. It's so stupid and frustrating that I hate it. (Remember, Neji could see the thin film of chakra in the dude's spider webs...those looked far thinner than the ones Nagato was using.)
Indeed. Like I said, they get longer the closer they get to Nagato. Your image proves this.
Neji was seeing them through x ray eyes. Not looking at the chakra.
Of course, there are a few reasons why this is irrelevant. For one, we do not see many Hyuuga. Hinata, Ho, and that random guy with Sakura. The others might have been injured, killed, whatever. The best Hyuuga, Neji, Hiashi, and Hanabi were not present. Hinata was concerned with Naruto, not Pain, so she could really care less. Ho was preoccupied with guarding Hinata and was injured anyway. These two and RH with Sakura had no reason to think this Pain was being controlled.
For two, look how many receivers are actually in the individual Paths. The signal gets smaller the farther away from the host, presumably because it needs to spend chakra to travel through the air. Now, assume the the signals split off so that each and every receiver gets hit. The signals would get even smaller to the point where even a Byakugan would have trouble seeing them. Probably.
Lastly, remember this?
http://www.mangareader.net/93-158-4/naruto/chapter-153.html
A fight for the village was taking place in front of their eyes. Any observer, unaware of how the enemies technique works similarly to the puppet technique, would focus on the fighters in front of their eyes. They might see the chakra signals, though I'd think if they did it be really small anyway, but that isn't the focus. The ****er who just nuked a village is.
Ok, here's a question: Of the various people informed of the chakra rods and the need to find the original...
... were any Hyuga among them?
They weren't in the team examining the rods, after all. I'm not sure Hinata and her bodyguard- the only other one there we know of for sure- were informed at that point.
Yea. Aura's been saying they're distracted by the more pressing concern, but I'm adding they likely didn't even know to think it'd matter in that way even if they noticed.
Just "Oh, there's odd chakra flying around these peeps. I wonder if it has something to do with their ability/maybe it links the bodies' vision together/whatever."
facepalm
Every last of your arguments are irrelevant, TheAuraAngel. It is a poor attempt at apologizing for Kishimoto's ineptitude. But, I'll humor you...
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed. Like I said, they get longer the closer they get to Nagato. Your image proves this.
Irrelevant: the chakra is still quite large when it reached the single individual rod. Your point is further irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies. Most especially, when a major attack would be used, Nagato would send a massive amount of chakra to the body to accomplish it...it would "brighten the sky" for a Hyuga because Nagato has some of the largest chakra consuming attacks seen (second to Madara).
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Neji was seeing them through x ray eyes. Not looking at the chakra. .
This point is irrelevant, as well. Neji cannot turn off the chakra "seeing" ability when he activates the Byuakugan.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course, there are a few reasons why this is irrelevant. For one, we do not see many Hyuuga. Hinata, Ho, and that random guy with Sakura. The others might have been injured, killed, whatever. The best Hyuuga, Neji, Hiashi, and Hanabi were not present. Hinata was concerned with Naruto, not Pain, so she could really care less. Ho was preoccupied with guarding Hinata and was injured anyway. These two and RH with Sakura had no reason to think this Pain was being controlled.
See point #1 for why this point is also irrelevant.
Additionally, Hinata and Ho looked directly at Nagato and the fight. Hinata's vision was quite awesome, too. Then there's the fact that a Hyuga would have eyes on one of the paths if they saw them, further making any points you have about Hyuga being "distracted."
Additionally, these are adults. They are calculating inviduals. To "gimp" them all by forcing them NOT to look at the bodies is very stupid. If you believe that of the Naruto characters, then you think all ninjas (including tactical geniuses) are idiots.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
For two, look how many receivers are actually in the individual Paths. The signal gets smaller the farther away from the host, presumably because it needs to spend chakra to travel through the air. Now, assume the the signals split off so that each and every receiver gets hit. The signals would get even smaller to the point where even a Byakugan would have trouble seeing them. Probably.
This is also irrelevant.
The "spending chakra" point you've come up with is completely baseless. There is nothing to suggest that the chakra signals "attenuate". In fact, we see a crap ton of chakra being sent out from Nagato because we see ALL the chakra he's sending out to all of the rods: not just one. What does this mean? It means that your claim of "small" chakra at the reciever is incorrect. Just because the path had to be moved closer, does not mean that the signal attenuates. You can think of more reasons other than attenuation. It could be that concentrating for a longer distance when sending chakra is more difficult. We don't know. But we can't automatically, and baselessly, assume "attenuation."
Lastly, we know the Byakugan would have no trouble at all seeing the chakra: it can see things even finer than threads.
Meaning, everything you have
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Lastly, remember this?
A fight for the village was taking place in front of their eyes. Any observer, unaware of how the enemies technique works similarly to the puppet technique, would focus on the fighters in front of their eyes. They might see the chakra signals, though I'd think if they did it be really small anyway, but that isn't the focus. The ****er who just nuked a village is. [/B][/QUOTE]
This point is also irrelevant for multiple reasons.
1. A hyuga as 360 degrees of vision: your point of concentration fails from the beginning. Neji could focus on all things coming in from all directions when he fought spider guy. Neji literally was focusing his attention on everything around him: that's the power of the byukugan.
2. They already knew pain's secret. They were already trying to trace the chakra to the origin. That's the entire base of why we are discussing this: a chakra sensor could not trace the chakra because it changed frequency so much...but a hyuga would not have to rely on frequency, at all: they can see it with their eyes.
3. If any hyuga just glanced at one of the paths, they would immediately see the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the path through all the different rods. Even from a distance, they would still see it.
Lastly, and this is the biggest part of why there is no apologetic for Kishimoto's writing: the hyuga can see the chakra network, clear as day, in a person. The idea that they have to focus to see the streams of chakra is irrelevant for a couple of reasons:
1. They can see the streams of chakra in a person's chakra network without focusing on any of it: it's just there staring them in the face.
2. The chakra network "veins" are very thin and small in some place: even smaller than the chakra streams flowing into the rods.
Now stop apologizing for Kishimoto's poor writing and just admit that Kishimoto ****ed up majorly.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Why can't we chalk this up to the Hyuga just not being relevant to the plot to notice something like that. Works for me 🙂
And this is more likely that correct answer.
Either Kishi did not want to use the Hyuga or he forgot about their ability.
Originally posted by Q99
Ok, here's a question: Of the various people informed of the chakra rods and the need to find the original...... were any Hyuga among them?
They weren't in the team examining the rods, after all. I'm not sure Hinata and her bodyguard- the only other one there we know of for sure- were informed at that point.
And this point is also irrelevant. There's no reason to know about it due to the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the paths. Regardless, you're trying to baslessly claim that at least one Jounin, the Hyuga Clan head, was not informed of the nature of the Paths of Pain? That's counterintuitive and is really stretching your apologetics for Kishimoto.
"Nah. Not even the head of a clan and one of the most powerful jonin in the village was told about the nature of Pain. Let's also forget that any Hyuga that can activate the byakugan would also be able to easily see the chakra flowing into the rods."
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why is it that every time I look at this thread, you white people are discussing or arguing some aspect of the manga I was too stupid to notice?estahuh
Fixed. estahuh
Now let the smart nerds argue about their nerd things or I'm telling your mom to ground you from your computer and Skyrim. estahuh
Man...this chore takes more work than it's worth. So this will be my final post on the topic.
Originally posted by dadudemon
facepalmEvery last of your arguments are irrelevant, TheAuraAngel. It is a poor attempt at apologizing for Kishimoto's ineptitude. But, I'll humor you...
Of course, your arguments pass for a poor attempt to complain. 313
Originally posted by dadudemon
Irrelevant: the chakra is still quite large when it reached the single individual rod. Your point is further irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies. Most especially, when a major attack would be used, Nagato would send a massive amount of chakra to the body to accomplish it...it would "brighten the sky" for a Hyuga because Nagato has some of the largest chakra consuming attacks seen (second to Madara).
Really now? Cause it certainly looks like the signals are bigger the closer they are to Nagato.
But let's use your argument. If it brightened the sky it would hardly be easy to track.
Originally posted by dadudemon
This point is irrelevant, as well. Neji cannot turn off the chakra "seeing" ability when he activates the Byuakugan.
He has. Neji's vision example 1, 2, and 3. Based on these images, Neji at least can choose the extent of his x ray eyes. Only one image shows the chakra network very clearly.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Additionally, Hinata and Ho looked directly at Nagato and the fight. Hinata's vision was quite awesome, too. Then there's the fact that a Hyuga would have eyes on one of the paths if they saw them, further making any points you have about Hyuga being "distracted."Additionally, these are adults. They are calculating inviduals. To "gimp" them all by forcing them NOT to look at the bodies is very stupid. If you believe that of the Naruto characters, then you think all ninjas (including tactical geniuses) are idiots.
Nagato was not there. You mean Pain. And sure, some were looking at the bodies. Considering I think the signals would be so small by the time they'd hid the receptors that I'd think it's irrelevant.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The "spending chakra" point you've come up with is completely baseless. There is nothing to suggest that the chakra signals "attenuate". In fact, we see a crap ton of chakra being sent out from Nagato because we see ALL the chakra he's sending out to all of the rods: not just one. What does this mean? It means that your claim of "small" chakra at the reciever is incorrect. Just because the path had to be moved closer, does not mean that the signal attenuates. You can think of more reasons other than attenuation. It could be that concentrating for a longer distance when sending chakra is more difficult. We don't know. But we can't automatically, and baselessly, assume "attenuation."
Considering we see the chakra signals as smaller nearer the receptor than Nagato, I don't find it very baseless. Of course, if you can find something else to explain why the signals are visibly smaller the closer they are to the reciever, I'm all ears. Or eyes, whatever.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Lastly, we know the Byakugan would have no trouble at all seeing the chakra: it can see things even finer than threads.
Considering the chakra is going through a medium thicker than air, the Byakugan would obviously have an easier time seeing that than the chakra signals.
Originally posted by dadudemon
1. A hyuga as 360 degrees of vision: your point of concentration fails from the beginning. Neji could focus on all things coming in from all directions when he fought spider guy. Neji literally was focusing his attention on everything around him: that's the power of the byukugan.2. They already knew pain's secret. They were already trying to trace the chakra to the origin. That's the entire base of why we are discussing this: a chakra sensor could not trace the chakra because it changed frequency so much...but a hyuga would not have to rely on frequency, at all: they can see it with their eyes.
3. If any hyuga just glanced at one of the paths, they would immediately see the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the path through all the different rods. Even from a distance, they would still see it.
Lastly, and this is the biggest part of why there is no apologetic for Kishimoto's writing: the hyuga can see the chakra network, clear as day, in a person. The idea that they have to focus to see the streams of chakra is irrelevant for a couple of reasons:
1. Indeed. However, this would never detract from the fact that he'd be more focused on something than something else he'd see. Naruto could see the paper in the Jiraiya example. However, his eyes focused on the mark. When in a battle where attacks could come from any direction, Neji would focus on any change in movement.
2. They didn't find out until the time of the Invasion. No Hyuga were nearby. The Hyuga that did see would have no reason to follow the chakra because they don't know about Nagato. Even if they did, Konan would simply kill them when they got there.
3. Unless they are too small.
Indeed. But it's easier to see things in a medium than not.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Now stop apologizing for Kishimoto's poor writing and just admit that Kishimoto ****ed up majorly.
He only ****ed up if you don't consider the possibilities or the context of the story. Not a single Hyuga knew of Nagato's existence. They would not have any reason to suspect Pain was being controlled by anyone.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And this point is also irrelevant. There's no reason to know about it due to the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the paths. Regardless, you're trying to baslessly claim that at least one Jounin, the Hyuga Clan head, was not informed of the nature of the Paths of Pain? That's counterintuitive and is really stretching your apologetics for Kishimoto.
The Hyuuga head was not in town when they found out.
Originally posted by dadudemon
"Nah. Not even the head of a clan and one of the most powerful jonin in the village was told about the nature of Pain. Let's also forget that any Hyuga that can activate the byakugan would also be able to easily see the chakra flowing into the rods."
Of course, if they saw it, they could always mistakenly believe that the Paths were channeling chakra into something else. The Pains walk, talk, fight, think. There is zero reason to think they are really animated corpses.
Originally posted by Q99hinata supposedly has TEN KILOMETER telescopic vision
Was Nagato in Byakugan range? And if he was, would they have thought to look *within* the fake tree?
edit*
hyuuga can see the tenketsu (needle tip sized areas), which the gentle fist is based on exploiting as if it was acupuncture
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Man...this chore takes more work than it's worth. So this will be my final post on the topic.Of course, your arguments pass for a poor attempt to complain. 313
I didn't expect you to reply, at all, after I pointed out why all of your points were irrelevant. I expected you to say, "yeah, guess so. I just didn't want Kishimoto to be as dumb as he sounded."
Of course, I knew you wouldn't, but it was more that I hoped.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Really now? Cause it certainly looks like the signals are bigger the closer they are to Nagato.
"Your point is further irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies."
Meaning, that was just the chakra flowing into one rod. Once we got back to the origin/source, we can see ALL of the chakra flowing from Nagato to all the chakra recievers.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
But let's use your argument. If it brightened the sky it would hardly be easy to track.
I think you missed the part where those words were in quotes (meaning, it is just a saying or phrase and you're not supposed to take it at face value). Never once was it shown that too much chakra "blinds" a hyuga. They see the chakra just fine no matter how much. See the fight Naruto had against Neji to verify that.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He has. Neji's vision example 1, 2, and 3. Based on these images, Neji at least can choose the extent of his x ray eyes. Only one image shows the chakra network very clearly.
No he hasn't. You're confusing telescoping with being able to turn OFF X-ray vision. That's not how it works. Did you intend for your point to come out so dishonest? I think you did. 😬
At all times, chakra is visible. Only the telescoping focus effect is what changes.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Nagato was not there. You mean Pain.
No, I meant Nagato and I still mean Nagato. All the paths are Nagato as he "is" every body. Compare it to The Matrix where an Agent can assume the form of any human plugged in: Nagato is the mind of all bodies so all bodies are Nagato (philsophy of mind-body duelism: since he is the mind in all bodies, he is the body).
And if I meant the way you said it, I would not have said "Pain" because all of the paths and Nagato are a "Pain". If I was to mean it the way you wanted me to, I would have said "Yahiko" or "Deva Path".
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
And sure, some were looking at the bodies. Considering I think the signals would be so small by the time they'd hid the receptors that I'd think it's irrelevant.
"2. The chakra network "veins" are very thin and small in some place: even smaller than the chakra streams flowing into the rods."
"the Byakugan would have no trouble at all seeing the chakra: it can see things even finer than threads."
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering we see the chakra signals as smaller nearer the receptor than Nagato, I don't find it very baseless.
""Your point is ... irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies."
Meaning, that was just the chakra flowing into one rod. Once we got back to the origin/source, we can see ALL of the chakra flowing from Nagato to all the chakra recievers.""
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course, if you can find something else to explain why the signals are visibly smaller the closer they are to the reciever, I'm all ears. Or eyes, whatever.
""Your point is ... irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies."
Meaning, that was just the chakra flowing into one rod. Once we got back to the origin/source, we can see ALL of the chakra flowing from Nagato to all the chakra recievers.""
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Considering the chakra is going through a medium thicker than air, the Byakugan would obviously have an easier time seeing that than the chakra signals.
This point is completely irrelevant to the portion you quoted.
And, no, they would be equally difficult to see or see through.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
1. Indeed. However, this would never detract from the fact that he'd be more focused on something than something else he'd see. Naruto could see the paper in the Jiraiya example. However, his eyes focused on the mark. When in a battle where attacks could come from any direction, Neji would focus on any change in movement.
""Your point is ... irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies."
"A hyuga as 360 degrees of vision: your point of concentration fails from the beginning."
"If any hyuga just glanced at one of the paths, they would immediately see the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the path through all the different rods. Even from a distance, they would still see it."
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
2. They didn't find out until the time of the Invasion. No Hyuga were nearby. The Hyuga that did see would have no reason to follow the chakra because they don't know about Nagato. Even if they did, Konan would simply kill them when they got there..
You are not telling me anything I haven't already covered.
This is what I was referring to:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-425-19/naruto/chapter-420.html
"Put out an emergency warning..."
http://www.mangareader.net/93-426-16/naruto/chapter-421.html
"We'd better let Fukasaku know about this, too..." meaning that there's more people who know.
Regardless, only an idiot, seeing chakra flow into black rods on a body, would not think to look at the origin. There are "puppet" users, you know. On top of that, "puppet" was one of the terms used to describe.
You're betting on the hyuga being complete idiots and NOT thinking to look in the direction that the chakra was flowing into the rods. Don't you see how dumb such a position is? This is the last thread/shread of hope you're trying to stand on to apologize for Kishimoto's stupidty. If I destroy this last little bit of apologetics you have, then you have no argument.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
3. Unless they are too small.
""Your point is ... irrelevant if you consider that there are tons of chakra receptors on the bodies."
"A hyuga as 360 degrees of vision: your point of concentration fails from the beginning."
"If any hyuga just glanced at one of the paths, they would immediately see the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the path through all the different rods. Even from a distance, they would still see it."
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Indeed. But it's easier to see things in a medium than not.
Did you just respond tautologically? You didn't say anything to me.
But, if I cut you some slack and actually address what you're trying to say:
"This point is irrelevant, as well. Neji cannot turn off the chakra "seeing" ability when he activates the Byuakugan."
Meaning:
"If any hyuga just glanced at one of the paths, they would immediately see the massive amounts of chakra flowing into the path through all the different rods. Even from a distance, they would still see it."
Because:
"the hyuga can see the chakra network, clear as day, in a person"
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
He only ****ed up if you don't consider the possibilities or the context of the story.
He didn't **** up if you're deluded and refuse to admit that Kishimoto wrote a giant plot hole in the whole invasion of Konoha.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Not a single Hyuga knew of Nagato's existence. They would not have any reason to suspect Pain was being controlled by anyone.
And I have destroyed every last bit of this line of reasoning on your part. No need for me to rehash.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
The Hyuuga head was not in town when they found out.
Any Hyuga will do: not just the Hyuga head. That's the point. You're thinking of any reason to make an exception, no matter how irrelevant to the actual point, JUST to save face. Stop avoiding the reality and face it: Kishimoto ****ed up. The Hyuga head wasn't in town? Then any Hyuga will do.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Of course, if they saw it, they could always mistakenly believe that the Paths were channeling chakra into something else. The Pains walk, talk, fight, think. There is zero reason to think they are really animated corpses.
You mean to tell me that you think the chakra flowing into the rods can be interpretted as them channeling chakra into something else? Did you think that line of reasoning through?
And no reason to consider them animated corpses? What about the lack of a central chakra network, for one? Prove that they have one because, from what I know, corpses to not have a central chakra network...because they are corpses.
Basically, your points boil down to this:
1. The Chakra flowing into the rods is too small/thin. Wrong: the chakra is more than large enough to see with even a minor observation rom a distance.
2. No Hyuga were aware of that the Pain bodies were corpses: this is not only irrelevant, it is more likely wrong than right. Corpses do not have a "living" chakra network nor would they have a central chakra network. Unless you prove otherwise, of course.
3. No Hyuga would be aware of the fact that Nagato is in another location: this point is irrelevant because the chakra is flowing (and at times, in very large quantities) from a specific direction. Your point requires an extreme exercise in stupidity. Not even the natural reflex to observe the movement of the chakra could be avoided as our eyes track movement...how much more so for a Hyuga that can see a much wider field of vision?
Those are the basic three points you're trying to pass off. None of them are even remotely legitimate.
If you said something like, "the chakra is masked with another tech that makes it invisible to people that can see chakra like sharingan and byakugan users", then I'd agree. Of course, I'd just say, "Scans or GTFO", but it would be the only argument that would actually be legitimate.
Until then, any Hyuga with a byakugan could clearly see the chakra flowing. Pretending that they cannot see the chakra, pretending that they could not easily see it was flowing from a certain direction, and pretending that they would be stupid enough not to question the flow...are all very stupid arguments.
Originally posted by psycho gundam
hinata supposedly has TEN KILOMETER telescopic visionedit*
hyuuga can see the tenketsu (needle tip sized areas), which the gentle fist is based on exploiting as if it was acupuncture
Which, for one, should clearly indicate that she could quickly (and within seconds) trace the origins of the chakra. Why would she not? Nagato did not appear to be more than 10 Km away: maybe about 5.
not to mention the metric shit-ton of chackra nagato was pumping to god realm. seems weird
anyways, two things i don't think were really touched upon from the last chapter:
1) tobi's kushina-esqe chackra chains. is he a secret uzumaki or, did he copy/steal that ability somewhere along the line, or is it simply the representation of controlling bijuu forcefully in the manga?
2) 6 version-2 jinchuuriki are not stomping mud holes in gai and kakashi's asses in the fight....ummm what gives? also, how does tobi know about version 2 and how did he activate it times 6 simultaneously?