Originally posted by Q99
You'd think so, but both asteroids and meteors become meteorites when they hit. Weird, I know.
I guess you missed the point of my post.
Asteroids stay asteroids the entire time....unless, of course, they break up to small enough pieces (which all do...but not in Naruto where they were slowed with dust release and sand...so much so that they never burned or broke up).
Meteoroids become meteors in the atmosphere. And then the meteors become meteorites when they strike the earth.
Some Asteroids become meteors when they break up in the atmosphere. Those fragments or chunks become meteorites when they strike earth.
However, the bigass rocks Madara pulled out of the sky are Asteroids because they did not break up entirely. Even when they strike earth, they are still Asteroids but they are also meteorites (they do not cease to be asteroids until they break up into small enough chunks to no longer be classified as asteroids). There is a size cut off for "meteors/meteoroids/meteorites". If that size is exceeded, it becomes and asteroid. There is no such thing as an asterite. To avoid confusion, everyone should start calling those things Madara pulled down "asteroids" because the cutoff is 50 meters: those were much larger than 50 meters. Since all asteroids break up in the atmosphere or when they impact earth (to sizes that classify them as meteors or meteorites) they all lose their size requirement to stay asteroids. The same is not true of "remnants" Madara's asteroids...but some of it does break up.
This is an asteroid:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/560/16
This is also an asteroid:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/4
And these are still asteroids:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/6
However, they are both also meteorites because they have rested on earth.
These fragments are now meteorites, through and through:
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/561/8
Keep these things in mind when you discuss those things in the future with anyone. They were asteroids the entire time. Never again refer to those things Madara pulls down as anything but asteroids. If you want to refer to the fragments or pieces left over as meteorites, you can. When people bring up those feats, they never refer to them at their resting state: that's just silly. Why would they? So bringing them up as meteorites is moot. They are only referencing them as ballistic objects being cast in down in a fight. No one can correctly say "man, look at those meteors Madara pulled down" because they are not meteors at that point (nor can they be because they are too large). So please stop abusing these words and use them correctly.
This has already been discussed, by the way. You're not bringing up anything new.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Correction: giant ****in' asteroids.
Goodness gracious grat balls of fire!
But yeah, I don't think anyone can stop his meteor technique. And he can spam it, so its even better than Shinra Tensei.
I'm quite annoyed at how little it did actually. You'd think the fight would have ended there.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Goodness gracious grat balls of fire!But yeah, I don't think anyone can stop his meteor technique. And he can spam it, so its even better than Shinra Tensei.
I'm quite annoyed at how little it did actually. You'd think the fight would have ended there.
Spoiler:
What are you up so early?
It's all Onoki's fault for being overpowered with his dust bones release.
But yeah, I don't think anyone can stop his meteor technique. And he can spam it, so its even better than Shinra Tensei.I'm quite annoyed at how little it did actually. You'd think the fight would have ended there.
It took out most of the division and both Kage needed Tsunade-healing afterwards. Still a fairly impressive amount in my book 🙂
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm from the UK. It's 4 o'clock in the afternoon over here.If Onoki doesn't die I will be annoyed. That ****er needs a heroic sacrifice.
Spoiler:
Damnit, I thought you were American or Canadian.
He seemed like he was going to give us one before Tsunade showed up.
Also, on another note, why do medical nins not make it possible for people to become immortal? They repair the cells. So why is it that they can't just heal their failing cells? This is exactly what aging science is trying to do: heal cells. Heal cells from their aging degeneration, then you have created a cure to aging. Let's visit Bleach for a moment: Orihime's healing just reverts time for that particular area...so that is explained without making people immortal. BUT WAIT! What if she reverted time enough? Then it's immortality as well (in Bleach, they get around the whole "your brain is your memories" with a soul: the soul stores the memories...so they don't have to worry about "erasing" memories when Orihime heals them). But what about the 4th squad? They are healing with a technique that is similar to the Medical Nins: they can create immortality, too. So WTF?
Granted, I do not think that either author realized that they were creating a way for immortality to be possible because they were not aware of telomeres and genetic degeneration. I wonder if Orochimaru realized this (he didn't)? Well, at least Kishimoto was on target...sort of, with Orochimaru's white snake cells allowing him to be virtually immortal with his regeneration ability. But the whole "new body" after 3 years was completely unnecessary.
Also, on another note, why do medical nins not make it possible for people to become immortal? They repair the cells. So why is it that they can't just heal their failing cells? This is exactly what aging science is trying to do: heal cells.
There's a limit in how often a cell can reproduce based on the DNA. They heal by using the cell's natural regen but that doesn't eliminate the limit. Also, some stuff can't be healed, like sufficient damage to chakra networks (which is probably where Orochimaru's fails- the stronger the chakra network the longer it can handle him, but the longer he's in a weaker body the more it'll fail). Which is why neither Tsunade, nor Orochimaru's regen technique, provide immortality. They can only heal some factors that go into aging but not others.
Now, as Orihime's power is explained, it should potentially provide immortality if regularly applied as it can reject all factors in aging, though it doesn't prevent them from reoccurring.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm quite annoyed at how little it did actually. You'd think the fight would have ended there.
It killed everyone there who didn't have a name, sans chakra sensing dude. Division 4 no longer exists really. 😛
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, on another note, why do medical nins not make it possible for people to become immortal? They repair the cells. So why is it that they can't just heal their failing cells? This is exactly what aging science is trying to do: heal cells. Heal cells from their aging degeneration, then you have created a cure to aging. Let's visit Bleach for a moment: Orihime's healing just reverts time for that particular area...so that is explained without making people immortal. BUT WAIT! What if she reverted time enough? Then it's immortality as well (in Bleach, they get around the whole "your brain is your memories" with a soul: the soul stores the memories...so they don't have to worry about "erasing" memories when Orihime heals them). But what about the 4th squad? They are healing with a technique that is similar to the Medical Nins: they can create immortality, too. So WTF?Granted, I do not think that either author realized that they were creating a way for immortality to be possible because they were not aware of telomeres and genetic degeneration. I wonder if Orochimaru realized this (he didn't)? Well, at least Kishimoto was on target...sort of, with Orochimaru's white snake cells allowing him to be virtually immortal with his regeneration ability. But the whole "new body" after 3 years was completely unnecessary.
Well in Naruto it would go against the entire principle of the old generation being succeeded by the new. Old ninja in Naruto don't seem to care about death anyway. It'll happen in due course. That and Medical Ninjutsu is stated to be unable to heal every injury. Cells are a bit different in Naruto anyway. As for Bleach, the Shinigami are effectively immortal anyway. Aging does not seem to have any negative effects on them.
Well in Naruto, a Soul is certainly present. There seems to be a balance between body and soul. If the body doesn't want the soul, it will start turning on it and cause it pain, etc. 3 years is a bit short I guess but I can see why the number was chosen.
AuraWell in Naruto, a Soul is certainly present. There seems to be a balance between body and soul. If the body doesn't want the soul, it will start turning on it and cause it pain, etc. 3 years is a bit short I guess but I can see why the number was chosen.
I think it really depends on how strong the body is, with the greater disparity between the strength of body and soul causing greater rejection. His girly body, for example, was going through tough fights and yet he still wanted it repaired rather than replaced, until the arm thing forced rejection sooner.
On the flip side, his second body was just a last minute replacement who hadn't been prepared and likely wasn't powerful enough to hold Orochimaru's soul well, so he wanted to get a new one as soon as possible.
I'd suspect Kimimaro's body, due to the durability granted by his kekkei genkai, could last *much* longer, and a healthy and strong Uchiha could last pretty long too.
Originally posted by Q99
There's a limit in how often a cell can reproduce based on the DNA. They heal by using the cell's natural regen but that doesn't eliminate the limit.
I addressed the "limit" thing already:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Granted, I do not think that either author realized that they were creating a way for immortality to be possible because they were not aware of telomeres and genetic degeneration.
Additionally, what you're suggesting would cause the person healed to have a much higher propensity to cancer and inability to undergo cellular division(and only produce toxins that cause the cells around it to not be able to reproduce, as well).
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, some stuff can't be healed,
Yes, I am aware of the PIS declaration that arbitrarily decided that some things cannot be healed from. They are called "vital spots".
Originally posted by dadudemon
like sufficient damage to chakra networks (which is probably where Orochimaru's fails- the stronger the chakra network the longer it can handle him, but the longer he's in a weaker body the more it'll fail).
And Naruto took a giant shit all over this point which Kishi had established in a few chapters prior. More PIS. (Naruto vs. Neji...Naruto magically heals what should have been a death blow)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Which is why neither Tsunade, nor Orochimaru's regen technique, provide immortality.
On the contrary, it should provide it. If you're correct, it would quickly shorten the life of anyone healed.
Is there evidence for your point? Yes, I think there is. Naruto's life is said to shorten from the rapid healing that he undergoes when going into beast mode. So I do think there is evidence for your side of things...but medical healing is not the same as rapid regeneration forced by tailed beast chakra. So I also think there's still evidence for why why medical ninjutsu is PIS.
Originally posted by dadudemon
They can only heal some factors that go into aging but not others.
I'll accept this but only conditionally: it either quickly reduces their life span or it doesn't. The only way to avoid it is with something like Orihime's healing ability: reversing time for the affected area. Unless it does that, it will, unavoidably, quickly age the cells used to rapidly replicate to heal the area.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Now, as Orihime's power is explained, it should potentially provide immortality if regularly applied as it can reject all factors in aging.
Indeed...except for the brain thing. I don't know how you could heal the head if it will just erase all the memories....but the whole soul thing kind of explains that.
Edit - Neph brings up a good point: if Tsunade does the rapid regeneration thing, it ages her faster. THAT makes sense and it is good writing on Kishimoto's part.
I'll partially concede this point: it would appear that damage to vital spots and then the subsequent regeneration of those spots, causes the rapid aging that I am saying would be a consequence. That said, the standard regeneration (medical ninjutsu) does not have this draw back because it heals in another way: it doesn't force rapid regeneration but it uses a third healing process like cell replication: it just creates nice neat little copies of the cells rather than forcing them to rapidly divide. Rebirth ninjtsu forces them to repidly divide. Problem solved.
However, that's apologizing with an explanation that was no provided. Either it grants immortality (because it is PIS and Kishi didn't think about it (probably this one)) or it causes rapid aging: no matter how the regeneration is occurring. We can only choose one or the other: not both.
However, that's apologizing with an explanation that was no provided.
I think you're just assuming high. Nothing about the healing says it has to provide immortality to begin with, it hasn't been precisely explained how it works anyway. If we haven't been told the process, we shouldn't assume it's one that could grant immortality.
The only ones we do have explained, the rapid division one, does specifically not help against aging.
Note that a normal healing technique doesn't completely make a wound go away to begin with- when Sakura was clawed by Naruto and Kabuto healed her, the wound, while closed, was shown to still cause an effect. While repairing happened, it wasn't total.
And with poison, the normal mystic hand technique can't handle the cellular damage from that very well either.
Or with Neji's arrow wound, they needed to use additional tissue created from his hair to close it.
Hm, or with Lee's wound. It seemed that repairing nerve damage was difficult and thus if the bone fragments in his spine caused too much damage, it goes beyond normal medical jutsu's ability to repair.
It may be they can repair *some* cells better than *other* cells. If you can mostly fix muscle and skin but not nerve or some of the other organs, then you won't have immortality.
The ability to do some cellular repair doesn't automatically mean immortality.
And Naruto took a giant shit all over this point which Kishi had established in a few chapters prior. More PIS. (Naruto vs. Neji...Naruto magically heals what should have been a death blow)
? Naruto never took a death blow in that fight.
Also, the gentle fist doesn't seem to necessarily cause permanent damage, it closed the points temporarily rather than aiming to destroy the network. Not to the extent Rasenshuriken does.
Originally posted by Q99
I think you're just assuming high.
I don't smoke weed, man. stoned
Originally posted by Q99
Nothing about the healing says it has to provide immortality to begin with, it hasn't been precisely explained how it works anyway.
Spoiler:
Not to be a douche but I have to be my normal self in my replies.
Incorrect: that's exactly what it implies. It either rapidly ages the cells (by destroying the integrity of the telomeres), greatly increases the chance that they cells will be cancerous, or produces cells that can no longer divide but become toxic. OR...the alternative, it creates perfectly good cells (hey, it's healing...not "do some temporary patching that may kill the person via cancer in the next few years"😉 which allows allows for immortality. Give me some more credit: I thought this one through much more so than my other moments of why Kishi wrote PIS.
Originally posted by Q99
If we haven't been told the process, we shouldn't assume it's one that could grant immortality.
For the most part, we don't need to know the process because we can narrow it down to a very binary system (which I outlined already).
Originally posted by Q99
The only ones we do have explained, the rapid division one, does specifically not help against aging.
Yup. On this, I agree. But it is a different mechanism (both the beast mode and Tsunade's rebirth) than the standard ninjutsu healing method.
Originally posted by Q99
Note that a normal healing technique doesn't completely make a wound go away to begin with- when Sakura was clawed by Naruto and Kabuto healed her, the wound, while closed, was shown to still cause an effect. While repairing happened, it wasn't total.
That was due to Naruto's Kyubi chakra, though. That one was explained.
The other healing stuff works just fine.
Originally posted by Q99
And with poison, the normal mystic hand technique can't handle the cellular damage from that very well either.
The reason for that is simple: healing the damage from the poison is fairly useless unless you can figure out a way to completly extract the poison and/or give the person an antidote: else all the cellular damage will be quickly undone by your healing efforts.
Originally posted by Q99
Or with Neji's arrow wound, they needed to use additional tissue created from his hair to close it.
And I know why, too: I was reading about the mystical palm technique. It does the same thing as rebirth and tailed beast healing. So all healing causes cancer and/or shortens the person's lifespan. So your theory has been confirmed: it all works the same and they are all hurting their lifespans by using the healing techs.
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, or with Lee's wound. It seemed that repairing nerve damage was difficult and thus if the bone fragments in his spine caused too much damage, it goes beyond normal medical jutsu's ability to repair.
It makes sense that tiny bone fragments would be hard to clean out: all the mystical palm crap does is cause rapid healing. If you healed "fragments" you'd quickly kill the person by enlarging those fragments. You'd have to safely remove all the fragments and THEN heal the wounds evenly (which is part of why medical ninjutsu requires such a perfect control of chakra: different types of tissues, must have a perfect understanding of anatomy or else you'll heal odd shapes into bones or lumps into muscles...and so froth). This is why Tsunade was the only one that could do it: she had to perfectly remove all the tiny bone fragments before initiating the rapid healing.
Originally posted by Q99
It may be they can repair *some* cells better than *other* cells. If you can mostly fix muscle and skin but not nerve or some of the other organs, then you won't have immortality.
Well, in this regard, nerves take a long ass time to heal and they do NOT undergo cell division (well...for the most part) like all other types of cells...they just "heal" themselves. So healing nerve damage makes sense: it would take much longer to accomplish that.
Originally posted by Q99
The ability to do some cellular repair doesn't automatically mean immortality.
I agree: it means the opposite. It appears to decrease the lifespan of the individual.
But, I don't think Kishimoto intended that. He only mentions the shortening lifespan for just the rebirth and beast chakra regeneration techs. Which is why I have concluded that Kishimoto accidentally wrote into Naruto the ability to become immortal through regenerating the cells with medical ninjutsu.
Originally posted by Q99
? Naruto never took a death blow in that fight.Also, the gentle fist doesn't seem to necessarily cause permanent damage, it closed the points temporarily rather than aiming to destroy the network. Not to the extent Rasenshuriken does.
Of course Naruto didn't take a death blow: he revived his shit with a massive amount of kyubi chakra. But that same blow/s supposedly almost killed Hinata: she would have died in mere minutes without immediate medical ninjutsu (as stated on panel). But it should kill most other people. That's what I meant by "death blow".
Apparently, Naruto was pretty good in Taijutsu...or at least decent. He took out all three of those dudes in one kick:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-68-11/naruto/chapter-63.html
Ahhhhh the good ol' days of Naruto.
Man, reading the Neji vs Hinata fight....I'm sympathizing more with Neji in hindsight.
http://www.mangareader.net/93-85-15/naruto/chapter-80.html
Neji: "You're a no talent loser."
Hinata: "Yeah well my dad is still alive dickhead."
Neji: "You ****ing *****!"
If Hinata had actually said it that way she'd be one of my favorites.
It's rather mean though. Neji didn't really want to fight Hinata and his mental torturing, while cruel, was merely a means to get her to forfeit. Neji is bitter so it's not like he would be able to help beating the ever loving shit out of her if they did fight. From a certain point of view Neji is being very reasonable. 313
Not helping things is Naruto, who doesn't realize not everyone has his super ultra healing factor.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Man, reading the Neji vs Hinata fight....I'm sympathizing more with Neji in hindsight.http://www.mangareader.net/93-85-15/naruto/chapter-80.html
Neji: "You're a no talent loser."
Hinata: "Yeah well my dad is still alive dickhead."
Neji: "You ****ing *****!"If Hinata had actually said it that way she'd be one of my favorites.
Of note:
http://www.mangareader.net/93-85-16/naruto/chapter-80.html
I have always wondered WTF Kurenai is doing down there. Now that I'm a bit older and more perverted than when I first read this chapter, I think I am concluding that she is about to suck some Neji balls. WTF is she supposed to be doing to stop Neji from all the way down there? WTF???? Someone hep meh.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
It's rather mean though. Neji didn't really want to fight Hinata and his mental torturing, while cruel, was merely a means to get her to forfeit. Neji is bitter so it's not like he would be able to help beating the ever loving shit out of her if they did fight. From a certain point of view Neji is being very reasonable. 313Not helping things is Naruto, who doesn't realize not everyone has his super ultra healing factor.
Nah. Neji wanted to fight her the most. He wanted to prove that the branch is better than the main house.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Of note:http://www.mangareader.net/93-85-16/naruto/chapter-80.html
I have always wondered WTF Kurenai is doing down there. Now that I'm a bit older and more perverted than when I first read this chapter, I think I am concluding that she is about to suck some Neji balls. WTF is she supposed to be doing to stop Neji from all the way down there? WTF???? Someone hep meh.
Nah. Neji wanted to fight her the most. He wanted to prove that the branch is better than the main house.
She grabbed his leg. Can see it better in the anime.
Then why did he want her to surrender? awesome
Edit: Er, nevermind. She grabbed his left arm. My bad. Memory of that scene was not good.