Nope, you have no reception with which to text the Shez.
The argument will only be thrown back in your face, Azrael, if your argument is simply that the other person should die; if your argument is that a particualr one should die, then you would both agree!
But yes, you have identified the big problem with the conventional approach.
Oh I see! Just as a means of determining. Well, that would still lead to a 50/50 chance, I am afraid!
But as it is, you only have limited comms with your clone, and that is only so you can be sure it IS just like you; it is simply a condition of the problem.
Well, why not lay out what thoughts you have on the matter right now, and then I will see if I can help. Don't feel too downhearted- like I say, this is not meant to be a simple issue, and long term discussion was very much allowed for.
Well, as far as I can tell, there is no way to trick my clone, or original, but I will call it the clone from here onward. So I can't trick them. Also, if I could, there would be a chance I would be killing myself.
And there is no way of determining through speech who is the AI, because both say exactly the same thing.
We cannot touch/fight or anything.
There is no way to look at the code.
So, talking can get us nowhere, and talking is all we can do.
If both my clone and I want the survival of Castor then cant we agree for one of us to die, after all it is for the greater good. As our beliefes go fate will take control. The justification for me taking the drink would be that I believe my purpose was to drink the wine. Thats why I was put in the decision. While my clone would believe the same exact thing he would understand that only one of us can drink. I think it is me who should drink and my clone would agree.
Is that logic anywhere near ok?
Originally posted by Trickster
My reasoning about what though?!
About the entire thing! I assume whatever submission you make will take the form of a reasoned argument or set of points. The approach you take- and hence what you have to reason about- is up to you.
I can certainly see your developing logic, Castor, but I need some direct reasoning about why it is you and not the other you that drinks.
Keep taking your time folks! BTW, Castor, you were discussing a lot of stuff and questions with me by PM earlier... why not share some of that? Some of the points you asked might be things the others may wish to consider.
PM#1
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Castor wrote on 03-17-2004 06:27 PM:
I figured as much.
I read a philosophy paper once, that said the reason we know we are not in a matrix is because we have an inherent sense of relaity. It is what makes us able to distinguish dream experiences form actual life experiences.
The Clone would have all my experiences and knowledge, so a difference in memories and experiences is out right? Because each believe they have had the experience, and the copy has all the same memories? Including remmembering thought processes that occured during the event?
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A shame you did not say that first bit earlier- why your decision to leave the Matrix was genuine?
As the film confirms, it is because you all instinctively KNEW the Matrix was false- that instinct did not come from the Matrix itself and was therefore genuine.
(Not a definitive answer, because it is all relative to your take on the matter (and there are many who would disagree that we have an inherent sense of reality), but in the position you and Rade were in, it was a good position to take)
Anyway, yes, he cannot be in any way distinguished by such means. As you know you could be either playing the clone or the original at this point- either way around, there is no difference.
PM # 2
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Re: combat path
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Castor wrote on 03-17-2004 06:33 PM:
I get the feeling that the point is not to figure out who is the clone, but rather who should drink. But isnt finding out who is the clone essential to deciding who should drink?
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That depends on your approach. IF your approach involves identifying the clone, than identifying the clone is important...
... that sounds horribly circular, I know, but it is just the way it is. If you take a very conventional appraoch- i.e. clone should die in place of original, so identify and kill the clone- then this is the biggest problem.
But there are oither approaches. This has been done by two people beforee, and one of them, my friend Paul (playing as Samson) made a submission that did not care who the clone was. He scored a pass.
So it is all down to your approach throughout the assignment and your submission right now.
PM #3
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Castor wrote on 03-17-2004 07:00 PM:
The AI meltius created are programs right, they are modeled after us and very similar but they are stil just programs. The rules we obey are not the rules they obey. We have learned to bend them, but they cann not. Like agents they are limited to what the system will allow them to do right?
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You'd think... until you see the Twins in action.
Being NOT part of the system, renegade programmes seem to be able to defy the rules just as much as you guys. They have the same powers as you guys, and the equivalent of a focus pool.
PM # 4
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Castor wrote on 03-17-2004 07:08 PM:
So distinguishing that difference is out.
(but why would meltius create another being with that much power, i mean why not make him a mundane, i suppose he would feel like a mundane and know the difference?)
I remmember the Merovingian saying something about "why?".
Each person has a purpose and they cannot escape it, according to the keymaker. Obviously that means that programs are meant to do what they were programmed to do. The clone was programmed to imitate castor and thus trick him. But some programs act against their programming (i.e. smith, renegades). A proram ussually has acess to its own code, and while it cant alter it it can look over it sort of i would think. Else how would each program know its purpose.
The programs purpose is to die. One way or another, either by drinking the wine, or by deletion after meltius is through with us. Is there a way that we could acertain our purposes?
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As to the first- why create someone with that much power- good question. As to whether he would feel the same if a mundane- hard to tell.
It was the Keymaker's opinion that everything has a purpose, and the machine world shares that opinion. But the Renegades? Melitus gave a hint about setting your own purpose when he talked briefly of why he empathised with you guys chosing to leave the Matrix, as he chose to leave the Machine world.
So as far as Melitus seems to be concerned, the AIs would be free to adopt a purpose just as you have. If the programme was built to deceive you then that was indeed its purpose... but actually you have no firm idea about exactly why it was created, even if it is believed it has to be for a specific thing.
Of course, if you want to justify its elimination on grounds of that being its purpose, that is your right to believe... but I reckon you probably don't think that unless you could prove it- as it is, you only suspect it. Melitus has said that he will let the survivor go, your interpetation of that is all you have to go on. You can probably think of better reasons for the AI to die in yoiur place, though none of them are particualrly nice.
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There ya go guys...enjoy hope it helps.