evolution

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Yeah, but I thought it was a good way to keep Star Trek relevent to the discussion.

Well, maybe underwater creatures are a bad example, I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that all intelligent life has to fit the human mold.

And you did it well...

Also, I don't think it is necessary to be able to built something to be intelligent....thing though is...if there is actually something that could be considered intelligent live but is not at least close to us (dolphins are pretty close) would we even recognize it?

Originally posted by BackFire
Evolution is a tool of the DEVIL! HISS! Just like the Metric system and American Idol.

Woe, I agree with 1 out of 3..that's pretty good for a start.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Well, maybe underwater creatures are a bad example, I'm just saying I find it hard to believe that all intelligent life has to fit the human mold.

I wouldnt support an absolute stating *all* intelligent life had to fit the human mold, but its very likely that most intelligent life would take a similar form to us based on the natural advantages.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I wouldnt support an absolute stating *all* intelligent life had to fit the human mold, but its very likely that most intelligent life would take a similar form to us based on the natural advantages.

Yeah, but that kind of implies that intelligent life would form only in an environment similar to that of earths. Watery worlds, gaseous environments, etc. These all provide different developmental advantages to different forms of life.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, I don't think it is necessary to be able to built something to be intelligent....

I agree totally.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Also, I don't think it is necessary to be able to built something to be intelligent....thing though is...if there is actually something that could be considered intelligent live but is not at least close to us (dolphins are pretty close) would we even recognize it?

True. The ability to built something is needed to make a civilisation. However, to evolve the intelligence - to use it in ever more clever ways - you need to be able to write down what is known. Also hard under water...
Maybe we should define intelligent first??

Self-aware, self-conscious? Since the most abundant building block in life is carbon, and carbon requires water as a solution, and liquid water is only found in a certain distance from a star, it's not that far out to expect life and hence intelligent life to look like us and that we'd be able to recognize.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
The flaw there is that you can't pass aquired traits onto your offspring. Case and point: you always have to teach a child how to read, no matter how many generations of your family has known how to read.

Humans ARE getting weaker. Too much sitting at computers and not enough getting outside. That gives us larger brains however.

I know that you can't pass acquired traits, I'm saying the child will have potential to be smarter, faster, stronger, more athletic, etc.

Not all humans are getting weaker. Some exercise their brains & bodies, I know I do most of the time. It's a choice if you want to be weak as opposed to being strong. Some humans are stronger than others but it's all by choice. Laziness comes naturally to most, some aren't as lazy as others.

Originally posted by Superman_045
I know that you can't pass acquired traits, I'm saying the child will have potential to be smarter, faster, stronger, more athletic, etc.

Not all humans are getting weaker. Some exercise their brains & bodies, I know I do most of the time. It's a choice if you want to be weak as opposed to being strong. Some humans are stronger than others but it's all by choice. Laziness comes naturally to most, some aren't as lazy as others.

Were this about one human being, you would be right.

But it isn't.

Originally posted by Superman_045
I know that you can't pass acquired traits, I'm saying the child will have potential to be smarter, faster, stronger, more athletic, etc.

Not all humans are getting weaker. Some exercise their brains & bodies, I know I do most of the time. It's a choice if you want to be weak as opposed to being strong. Some humans are stronger than others but it's all by choice. Laziness comes naturally to most, some aren't as lazy as others.

Laziness is actually a learned behavior. Besides, humans don't hunt for their food, don't defend against aggressive predators, etc. Doesn't matter how much you're working out, the entire species is weaker.

Originally posted by The Omega
True. The ability to built something is needed to make a civilisation. However, to evolve the intelligence - to use it in ever more clever ways - you need to be able to write down what is known. Also hard under water...
Maybe we should define intelligent first??

Self-aware, self-conscious? Since the most abundant building block in life is carbon, and carbon requires water as a solution, and liquid water is only found in a certain distance from a star, it's not that far out to expect life and hence intelligent life to look like us and that we'd be able to recognize.

Well, but can we be sure that there isn't life out there that is not carbon based? And would we recognize that? Or maybe I read to much Science Fiction.

Intelligence, besides being self-aware and self-concious I think intelligence needs to be able to handle new situations. And how quick they do so does define the level of intelligence.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, but can we be sure that there isn't life out there that is not carbon based? And would we recognize that? Or maybe I read to much Science Fiction.

Intelligence, besides being self-aware and self-concious I think intelligence needs to be able to handle new situations. And how quick they do so does define the level of intelligence.....

Of the atoms that could MAKE life, carbon is the most abundant. So it sounds only logical that nature would attempt that route, since gathering enough of far less abundant atoms would take a very long time, and run the risk of complexer molecules being disrupted before you go from biotic to biology.
Is a place too cold, you have the same problem as above. Is it too hot, the heat itself would tend to rip apart complexer molecules.
It's not just a question of whether or not SOME atoms could form complex organic molecules like varbon-based ones. I think silicium is one, but it is far less stable than carbon and less abundant.

You also need to ask if there is a solvent so atoms can meet and form complexer molecules. And there is the time-factor and possible disruptions in from the environment.

I'm not ruling out life based on other stuff than carbon, I'm merely pointing out why it is far less likely to happen.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Laziness is actually a learned behavior. Besides, humans don't hunt for their food, don't defend against aggressive predators, etc. Doesn't matter how much you're working out, the entire species is weaker.

The entire species isn't getting weaker. When you evolve, there's not really a need to hunt for food anymore unless you're stranded on an island with no knowledge of where you are. I personally don't think that the entire species is getting weaker, just some. Most of the people you see are either obese & weak or skinny & weak. If you include the football players, basketball players, wrestlers, baseball players, bodybuilders, etc, there are a lot of strong people. Even the women are getting stronger, trust me, I know. The whole speices isn't getting weaker, like I said, it's by choice. Some people choose to be obese & some people even like being obese. Some people can be sort of obese & strong, depends on the person I guess. If the people who work out continue to do so, evolution may help us out afterall. At least physically.

Originally posted by Superman_045
The entire species isn't getting weaker. When you evolve, there's not really a need to hunt for food anymore unless you're stranded on an island with no knowledge of where you are. I personally don't think that the entire species is getting weaker, just some. Most of the people you see are either obese & weak or skinny & weak. If you include the football players, basketball players, wrestlers, baseball players, bodybuilders, etc, there are a lot of strong people. Even the women are getting stronger, trust me, I know. The whole speices isn't getting weaker, like I said, it's by choice. Some people choose to be obese & some people even like being obese. Some people can be sort of obese & strong, depends on the person I guess. If the people who work out continue to do so, evolution may help us out afterall. At least physically.

Maybe you don't realize exactly what you're saying.

Let's just use the United States for numbers. Ironically the most obese nation on the planet, yet also holds just about the most athletes of any single nation. Wonder how that works...

It isn't by choice, it's fact. You just admitted we don't need to hunt for our food. Right there, whatever physical abilities we needed to hunt for food are gone. We are factually weaker then we've ever been, with the exception of those who lived in the Middle Ages. They suffered from malnutrition and really didn't grow past 5 feet tall.

AC> Do you mean physically weaker?
That is not necessarily a step-back in evolution. If natural selection favours people with other traits, that's the way things go, yes?

Originally posted by The Omega
AC> Do you mean physically weaker?
That is not necessarily a step-back in evolution. If natural selection favours people with other traits, that's the way things go, yes?

I think you're looking for 'AF', but yes physically weaker, it's not necessarily bad, our brains are getting larger too. It's all good. We'll have robots to hunt food for us.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
I think you're looking for 'AF', but yes physically weaker, it's not necessarily bad, our brains are getting larger too. It's all good. We'll have robots to hunt food for us.

Yes. AF, not AC... Sorry about that.

Well... It depends, doesn't it? Too much dependence on technology does in a sense make us weak, should the technology fail, yes?
Maybe we're supposed to go Borg?

(Suddenly has the urge to say "Resistance is futile"... )

this'll shut them up

Originally posted by lord xyz
this'll shut them up

Those Flat-Earth guys are really a trip.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Those Flat-Earth guys are really a trip.

Originally posted by The Omega
Yes. AF, not AC... Sorry about that.

Well... It depends, doesn't it? Too much dependence on technology does in a sense make us weak, should the technology fail, yes?
Maybe we're supposed to go Borg?

(Suddenly has the urge to say "Resistance is futile"... )

Yeah, technology could be used to enhance ourselves, so that the weaknesses we might develop wouldnt really matter.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yeah, technology could be used to enhance ourselves, so that the weaknesses we might develop wouldnt really matter.