Originally posted by The Omega
Agent Elrond> Well, what is x and n in said equation? 🙂 Looks to me like you're trying to prove Lines 10-dimensional squid...
I was mocking Euler's 'proof' that God exists. It was simplier. Mine was jist something I randomly came up with.
How about this one:
3x^3-2x^2+6x-5i+(2i-3x^xi)=4i^-i+ln(2xi)
[Quote] 1.Where has macroevolution ever been observed? (See page 6.) What’s the mechanism for getting new complexity, such as new vital organs? If any of the thousands of vital organs evolved, how could the organism live before getting the vital organ? (Without a vital organ, the organism is dead—by definition.) If a reptile’s leg evolved into a bird’s wing, wouldn’t it become a bad leg long before it became a good wing? How could metamorphosis evolve?
1) Palaeontologists have found a quite complete set of dinosaur-to-bird transitional fossils with no morphological "gaps" (Sereno 1999), represented by Eoraptor, Herrerasaurus, Ceratosaurus, Allosaurus, Compsognathus, Sinosauropteryx, Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, Velociraptor, Sinovenator, Beipiaosaurus, Sinornithosaurus, Microraptor, Archaeopteryx, Rahonavis, Confuciusornis, Sinornis, Patagopteryx, Hesperornis, Apsaravis, Ichthyornis, and Columba, among many others (Carroll 1997, pp. 306-323; Norell and Clarke 2001; Sereno 1999; Xu et al. 1999; Xu et al. 2000; Xu et al. 2002). All have the expected possible morphologies, including organisms such as Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, and the famous "BPM 1 3-13" (an unnamed dromaeosaur from China) which are flightless bipedal dinosaurs with modern-style feathers (Chen et al.1998 ; Qiang et al. 1998; Norell et al. 2002). Additionally, several similar flightless dinosaurs have been found covered with nascent evolutionary precursors to modern feathers (branched feather-like integument indistinguishable from the contour feathers of true birds), including Sinornithosaurus ("Bambiraptor"😉, Sinosauropteryx, Beipiaosaurus, Microraptor, and an unnamed dromaeosaur specimen, NGMC 91, informally called "Dave" (Ji et al. 2001). The All About Archaeopteryx FAQ gives a detailed listing of the various characters of Archaeopteryx which are intermediate between reptiles and modern birds.
2. Do you realize how complex living things are? How could organs as complicated as the eye or the ear or the brain of even a tiny bird ever come about by chance or natural processes? How could a bacterial motor evolve? How could such motors work until all components evolved completely and were precisely in place?
2) Yes, living beings are complex. But the complexity of life doesn’t prove it was created by any divine being or beings. Nature also has quite a lot of organisms, that show features of appallingly bad design. This is because evolution via natural selection cannot construct traits from scratch; new traits must be modifications of previously existing traits. This is called historical constraint. A few examples of bad design imposed by historical constraint:
In human males, the urethra passes right through the prostate gland, a gland very prone to infection and subsequent enlargement. This blocks the urethra and is a very common medical problem in males. Putting a collapsible tube through an organ that is very likely to expand and block flow in this tube is not good design. Any moron with half a brain (or less) could design male "plumbing" better.
In African locust, the nerve cells that connect to the wings originate in the abdomen, even though the wings are in the thorax. This strange "wiring" is the result of the abdomen nerves being co-opted for use in flight. A good designer would not have flight nerves travel down the ventral nerve cord past their target, then backtrack through the organism to where they are needed. Using more materials than necessary is not good design.
3. If macroevolution happened, where are the billions of transitional fossils that should be there? Billions! Not a handful of questionable transitions. Why don’t we see a reasonably smooth continuum among all living creatures, or in the fossil record, or both?
3 There are gaps in the fossil record due to the rarity of preservation and the likelihood that speciation occurs in small populations during geologically short periods of time, transitions between species are uncommon in the fossil record. Transitions at higher taxonomic levels, however, are abundant. Evolutions, however, explaions the fossils. Creationists do not, and cannot account for the age of the fossils if the Earth is only 6000 years old (as Bishop Ussher calculated it to be according to the Bible).
4. Textbooks show an evolutionary tree, but where is its trunk and where are its branches? For example, what are the evolutionary ancestors of the insects?
4) Scientists don't claim that cells and multi-cell creatures came into being through random processes. They are thought to have evolved from more primitive precursors
5. How could the first living cell begin? That’s a greater miracle than for bacteria to evolve into man. How could that first cell reproduce? Just before life appeared, did the atmosphere have oxygen or did it not have oxygen? Whichever choice you make creates a terrible problem for evolution. Both must come into existence at about the same time.
5) That we can’t explain the origins of something, doesn’t prove divinity. A few hundred years ago, people had no clue how lightening worked, and even earlier that was contributed to Gods.
Before life evolved 3,8 billion years ago, the Earth atmosphere consisted mainly of CO2. The presence or not of oxygen, does not create a problem for evolution. That God appearantly first created a planet with CO2 atmosphere, and then changed his mind, is a problem for creationists.
6. Please point to a strictly natural process that creates information. What evidence is there that information, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble itself? What about the 4,000 books of coded information that are in a tiny part of each of your 100 trillion cells? If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. Why then doesn’t the vast information sequence in the DNA molecule of just a bacterium also imply an intelligent source?
6) Define intelligent signal. Let’s assume it has a specific pattern and is as such recognisable as being send by intelligent beings, and easily seen against the background of space, as having such a pattern. It’s exactly seeing it against a disordered background, that makes it recognisable to us humans, being intelligent. But if the rest of space is so disordered, then it is by definition NOT ordered, and God made a mess.
Also: Vast information stored in DNA does not prove intelligent design. As pointed out above, there’s a lot of appallingly bad designs in nature.
7. Which came first, DNA or the proteins needed by DNA, which can only be produced by DNA?
7) DNA codes for proteins that are either building blocks or codes for processes in the body. DNA does not code for DNA. Nonsense.
8. How could sexual reproduction evolve? How could immune systems evolve?
8) Just as senses evolved.
9. If it takes intelligence to make an arrowhead, why doesn’t it take vastly more intelligence to create a human? Do you really believe that hydrogen will turn into people if you wait long enough?
9) An arrowhead proved useful to early humans and therefore helped them survive. Do you know what fusion is? It’s what makes the sun our energy source. Fusion transform lighter elements into heavier elements. Do you really believe we do not consist of elements?
10. If the solar system evolved, why do three planets spin backwards? Why do at least 30 moons revolve backwards?
10) What three planets are you talking about? Are you talking about axis-rotation? That, say, Uranus spins around it’s “equator”? What’s wrong with that? It’s not a scientif puzzle. Impact with asteroids can force a planets spin to change. If some god created the solar-system, why the mess?
11. Can you name one reasonable hypothesis on how the moon got there—any hypothesis that is consistent with all the data? Why aren’t students told the scientific reasons for rejecting all the evolutionary theories for the moon’s origin? What about the other 128+ moons in the solar system?
11) We currently believe the Earth was hit by a big meteor or asteroid, and the Moon was created through rejected material. Why should students be told the scientific reasons for rejecting the evolutionary theories for the moon’s origin? What is your problem with the moons? There’s no scientific problems with moons.
12. Where did matter, space, time, energy, or even the laws of physics come from? What about water?
12) Big Bang. Water simply consists of oxygen and hydrogen. What’s the problem with water now?
13. How could stars evolve?
13) Through fusion. And through the growing amount of heavier elements. Older stars contain less amounts of heavier elements than younger stars. That’s a fact.
14. Are you aware of all the unreasonable assumptions and contradictory evidence used by those who say the earth is billions of years old?
14) No, I’m not aware of unreasonable assumptions and contradictory evidence used by those who says the Earth is 4,5 billion years old. Again – science evolves. Which is a good thing. Evolutionary theory is in exactly the same condition as any other valid scientific theory, and many criticisms of it that rely on philosophy are misguided. Or do you claim that science is wrong? You’re not sitting by a computer?
15. Why are living bacteria found inside rocks that you say are hundreds of millions of years old and in meteorites that you say are billions of years old? Clean-room techniques and great care were used to rule out contamination.
15) What living bacteria in billion year old meteorites are YOU talking about??
16. Did you know that most scientific dating techniques indicate that the earth, solar system, and universe are young?
16) According to numerous, independent dating methods, the earth is known to be approximately 4.5 billion years old. Most young-earth arguments rely on inappropriate extrapolations from a few carefully selected and often erroneous data points. Barry Setterfield's hypothesis of a decay in the speed of light for example was based on flawed extrapolations from inaccurate measurements, many of which were taken hundreds of years ago.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
17. Why do so many ancient cultures have flood legends?
17) Because most likely the Earth’s climate changed drastically some 12.000 years go, giving rise to flood legends in many areas on Earth. This only proves that there may’ve been a flood. The producers of America's 1993 CBS television show, "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark," were hoaxed. Other ark discovery claims have not been substantiated. Why have no one found the Ark?
18. Have you heard about the mitochondrial Eve and the genetic Adam? Scientists know that the mitochondrial Eve was the common female ancestor of every living person, and she appears to have lived only about 6,000–7,000 years ago.
18) I have no idea where the claim of a recalculation of mitochondrial eve reset the date to 6000 years ago came from. Who did this recalculation? How was it done? I suspect that some creationist just made it up. It may shock you to learn this, but many creationists lie, and many more work to perpetuate the lies out of sheer, appalling ignorance.
19. Careful researchers have found the following inside meteorites: living bacteria, salt crystals, limestone, water, sugars, terrestrial-like brines, and earthlike isotopic patterns. Doesn’t this implicate Earth as their source—and a powerful launcher, “the fountains of the great deep?”
19) Actually, no. We may be the Martians for all I know, life may’ve come here from Mars. Salt, organic chemicals etc. are not indigenous to Earth.
20. Would you explain the origin of any of the following 25 features of the earth: The Grand Canyon and Other Canyons, Mid-Oceanic Ridge, Continental Shelves and Slopes, Ocean Trenches, Seamounts and Tablemounts, Earthquakes, Magnetic Variations on the Ocean Floor Submarine Canyons, Coal and Oil Formations, Methane Hydrates, Ice Age Frozen Mammoths, Major Mountain Ranges, Overthrusts, Volcanoes and Lava, Geothermal Heat, Strata and Layered Fossils, Metamorphic Rock Limestone, Plateaus, Salt Domes, Jigsaw Fit of the Continents, Changing Axis Tilt, Comets, Asteroids and Meteoroids?
20) Geological features are created through such processes as erosion, Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, movement of tectonic plates, etc. [/QUOTE]
1. To go along with number one, there were many dinosaurs as you guys have said, but what has proved that they evolved, did they tell you or are you making assumptions about what you thought just happened. I mean shoot, God said he made the beasts of the field and the birds of the air, but he never said how many, were just there to count them, not to tell how old they are or when they “came about” it’s a given *points to the book of Genesis.
2. God designed it just right, and if we messed it up it’s our fault, also in the locust, if the thing is complex and it works, it’s good designing, and to go along with the waisting, that is a human rule for the human world, when God created the locust he made the thing just like that, God doesn’t waist because he’s got an endless supply… i.e. He is God.
3. Well when we find a fossil, we don’t have to make up a story from something that we’ve already read.
4. Who cares how primitive the thing is, the point is that you say that life came about by random processes, you’ve got to be an ignorant redneck to think like that.
5. Um I have a question, how do you know that that was the chemical gas at the time, and then when was the switch, because in Genesis it says that When God created the earth he saw that it was good, which meant no changy of gases, everything needs oxygen, whether it be in water or primordial ooze.
6. That guy was explaining to you about how clear God is, but he gets clear the closer you get in a relationship with him. And if vast amount of info in DNA does not prove that it was created then what does it prove?
7. I read your answer over and over again, did you even answer the question?
8. What?!?! How did the senses evolve? Did they go from a-sexual reproduction into taking to ppl to reproduce? And without a good immune system, your dead, and since we all evolved SLOWLY, it leaves no room for one without the other.
9. When he said arrowhead, he was not talking about how Indians used them for survival he was talking about that you don’t see an arrowhead being made randomly, even by erosion. And yes we all know that were made up of elements, but did you know were made out of the same elements as dirt, i.e. God made us from the dust of the ground.
10. Woah, how is the solar system a mess? Seriously I see nothing wrong with it, if you were God how would you fix the solar system? Why do you say it’s jacked up? And also you didn’t answer the question 😄
11. I’ve heard that theory and I believe it’s BS, what’s the evidence for it, and where the chunk of missing land suppose to be located?
12. What the heck, the big bang was an explosion, that created life? 🤨 how did it happen? Why did it happen? How come you haven’t been able to redo this event, c’mon you’ve explain the whole thing out, now go and create rocks, water, life and etc in the same or can you?
13. alright, did you just contradict yourself, cuz you said that older starts have a less amount of heavier elements, but b4 that you said that they had more. 😕
14. on 14 I’m going to have to go search for it, k
15. Well the guy asked the question, so I guess he might have been in a debate with an evolutionist that made that claim.
16. same as 14
17. Why has know own found it? Because it was hidden, but even with that we have only found bits and piece of wood from the ark.
18. And how do we lie? We present our facts and you present yours, but if one’s desperate enough to keep a ridiculous theory alive then so be it.
19. Common Logic can give you the answer to this one.
20. … and the same random processes that created DNA, is that what you were going to say, right after etc?
Anyways, the anwasers i gave, if you ACTUALLY think about them with a non-sarcastic mind, then they are very logical answers.
Also after this i think i'm pretty much done with debating, so i'll catch ya later
I unfortunately do not have the time to answer all of your questions. I'll just do a few...
8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
A single cell is not capable of sexual reproduction. See, cells divide using this thing called mitosis... 😕
9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
Because if they all stopped reproducing, there would be no more of that organism. Is that really so hard to understand?
10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
A mutation is when a gene changes entirely, not when you just take, say, brown hair and blue eyes and add them together. It is very rare for a mutation to turn into an actual part of a species' genetic code.
11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?
If you believe in Creation, certainly. But the fact is, the reason my dog and I both have ankles (hocks in the dog's case) is because all mammals evolved from a common ancestor. Sort of like why all fish have gills.
12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question... Natural selection is really quite simple, you can see it for yourself if you breed animals of some kind...
13. When, where, why, and how did:
o Single-celled plants become multi-celled? (Where are the two and three-celled intermediates?)
Have you studied biology at all? Because if you had, I think you would probably know that there are "intermediates". Like some types of algae are single celled, while others live in colonies. The colonies just became one organism after time. Also, algae is not technically a plant. It is a moneran. Anyways... That doesn't really matter, what matters is that there is multi-cellular algae out there.
o Single-celled animals evolve?
Well, for one, a cell is much better in most ways than a little wad of protein. 😊
o Amphibians change to reptiles?
When animals started spending much less time in the water, and eventually none at all. (in some cases)
o Reptiles change to birds? (The lungs, bones, eyes,reproductive organs, heart, method of locomotion, body covering, etc., are all very different!)
Birds and reptiles aren't totally different. There are lizards and dinosaurs that show remarkable resemblance to birds.
How did the intermediate forms live?
There are amphibians that have gills and must live in the water. Just as there are dinosaurs that had feathers.
14. When, where, why, how, and from what did:
o Whales evolve?
When mammals started spending more and more time in the water, they evolved little flippers (like seals) and slowly turned into whales.
o Eyes evolve?
Ever heard of a planaria? It's a kind of flatworm, about an eighth of an inch long. It has a simple nervous system, and eyespots, which are like very simple eyes. They can sense light and dark, but that's about it.
o Ears evolve?
Honestly I'm not sure about this one. But I would guess that it's similar to the way eyes evolved--by starting very simply and gradually becoming more complex.
15. Which evolved first how, and how long, did it work without the others?
o The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the food, the digestive juices, or the body’s resistance to its own digestive juice (stomach, intestines, etc.)?
Phylum Nematode (roundworms) is the first phylum of animals to use a true digestive system. This is simply a sort of primitive intestine running from the anterior end to the posterior end. Food goes in one end, poo comes out the other. This gradually evolved to become more complex, and the linings gradually evolved to become more resistant to stomach acid and such.
o The drive to reproduce or the ability to reproduce?
Every organism on the planet can reproduce in some way. (with the exception of viruses, which technically are not even organisms, and need living cells to reproduce) There is sexual reproduction, in which a sperm cell enters an egg and "fertilizes" it--that is, puts its genetic material into the egg so that it can start growing. Asexual reproduction is generally done by parts of an animal breaking off, or by a single cell dividing into two cells. The drive to reproduce simply comes from an organism's desire to keep its species alive. It's instinctual.
o The lungs, the mucus lining to protect them, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed into the lungs?
See, this is one of those things where we think it's a miracle that we just HAPPEN to breathe exactly the same kind of gas found in Earth's atmosphere, when really, we just evolved to breathe this stuff because it's everywhere. Then we evolved a mucous coating to protect the insides of our resperatory systems.
o DNA or RNA to carry the DNA message to cell parts?
Every organism has some kind of genetic material. It didn't evolve from anything since everything has it... Viruses are the simplest living (or non living, depending on how you look at it) things on earth, consisting of literally a strand of DNA or RNA, and a protein "wrapper" on the outside. Viruses do very little except float around pretty much anywhere looking for cells in which to inject their DNA/RNA and thereby order to reproduce for them. Then, DNA/RNA evolved to be more complex and do cooler tricks...
o The termite or the flagella in its intestines that actually digest the cellulose?
I believe you mean cilia when you say flagella. A flagellum is a sort of "tail" that some kinds of protists use to move around in the water. Cilia are little hairs. Anyways, obviously the termite. Numerous species use cilia for different purposes, but trust me when I say that a termite did not one day eat something else that had them and start growing them in its intestines.
o The bones, ligaments, tendons, blood supply, or muscles to move the bones?
The muscles. Worms (can't remember which phylum) are the first to make use of muscular locomotion, and have no bones, nor tendons. They have simple, open circulatory systems.
o The immune system or the need for it?
The need for it. Nature doesn't believe in preemptive war.
16. There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation. Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?
Give me one example of a symbiotic relationship that defies evolution and maybe I'll listen to you when you say that Creation should be taught in schools.
17. How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?
By natural selection. A brown moth (this is an exaggeration) blends in with a tree trunk better than a purple one, so all the purple moths got eaten by birds while the brown ones didn't. Hence, the purple ones could not pass their genes on to a new generation, and eventually, there were only brown ones.
18. When, where, why, and how did man evolve feelings? Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.
Love was originally just a biological urge to reproduce. We have made love something more than that ourselves. Mercy and guilt, IMO, are there simply because of our complex brains.
22. What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?
Why do I have to classify what kind of evolutionist I am? Anyways, I believe in almost every aspect of evolution. The only part I'm not sure about is (actually a big part of it) the part that deals with non-living things, but only because I know so little about that.
23. What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
I'd've told you to go f*ck yourself, only I'd've put it more nicely. How is this relevent?
26. Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?
Well, where else did it come from? If you're so certain God created the universe, then ask yourself this--where did God come from?
I apologize for not answering all of them. Some I really don't have answers for, some I didn't answer because I was just too lazy...
Re: evolution
Originally posted by Darth Revan
I think it's really stupid that Georgia banned teaching about evolution in school, the fact is, there is a ton of stuff in the natural world that can't be explained without evolutionWhat do y'all think about it
Y'know, I am creationist. Evolution wobbles. It's not occupied!
Evolution is a theory and the better way to explain it is
GOD created the world
btw... did you know the magnetic field reduces?
and if the world was older than 12.000 years, it would have exploded due to the extreme magnetic field....
gas planets can originate in like some hundred years
and ALL the humanity derives from like 30 women (genetically proved)
argue against that
Originally posted by Darth Revan
10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
A mutation is when a gene changes entirely, not when you just take, say, brown hair and blue eyes and add them together. It is very rare for a mutation to turn into an actual part of a species' genetic code.
OOPS! Extremely wrong
Mutations are always a loss of information.
It can result accommodation which means stabilization of the genus,
but NEVER formation of new genuses.
Re: Re: evolution
Originally posted by eezy45
Y'know, I am creationist. Evolution wobbles. It's not occupied!
Evolution is a theory and the better way to explain it isGOD created the world
btw... did you know the magnetic field reduces?
and if the world was older than 12.000 years, it would have exploded due to the extreme magnetic field....gas planets can originate in like some hundred years
and ALL the humanity derives from like 30 women (genetically proved)
argue against that
How are you so sure that the Earth would have exploded if it was over 12000 years old? I think my friend told me about something he saw on TV about the magnetic field... Said something about how sometimes the magnetic field grows stronger, sometimes it grows weaker... I think... Anyways, we have proof that the Earth is older than 12000 years. First of all, do you know what carbon dating is? It allows us to take certain materials and figure out how old they are... Don't ask me to explain it in any great detail. But my point is, we have found things FAR older than 12000 years. Also, you look at stars at night... Many of them are several million light years away. How, then, if the universe is so young, could the light already be reaching us?
Guess what? We don't live on a gas planet.
Humanity doesn't derive from 30 human women, it comes from apes. 🙂 😊
Now, certainly, "God created the world" is a simple explanation for everything. But there is nothing that we have yet discovered in this universe that cannot be explained with science. Saying "God created the world" every time we discover something new about the world we live in is just stupid.
I apologize for the thing about genetic mutations... I'm a little tired today...
Force--> But he had to come from somewhere, surely? How is it possible that such a powerful, divine being just came out of nowhere, or that he has always existed? Nothing that I know of just pops out of nowhere or has always existed. The Bible is simply a story book that has deeper meaning. God did not write it. People did.
eezy--> What does the name of a theory have to do with the truth behind it? Nothing...
Originally posted by Darth Revan
26. Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?
Well, where else did it come from? If you're so certain God created the universe, then ask yourself this--where did God come from?
calling everything into question 😂
typical human argument of disbelief
Hey, god is god. He's higher, our mind doesnt suffice.
Re: Re: Re: evolution
Originally posted by Darth Revan
First of all, do you know what carbon dating is?
Where did you know...
1. Nothing else affected the radiocarbon rate
2. What it was "65 million years ago"
... maybe it changed? Maybe? You cannot proof the opposite!
hey... science shouldn't say "This is the truth" when not exactly knowing!
It's only because you don't want to believe in something higher than you, right?
Re: Re: Re: Re: evolution
Originally posted by eezy45
Where did you know...1. Nothing else affected the radiocarbon rate
2. What it was "65 million years ago"
... maybe it changed? Maybe? You cannot proof the opposite!
hey... science shouldn't say "This is the truth" when not exactly knowing!
It's only because you don't want to believe in something higher than you, right?
Maybe it changed? I don't understand what you're saying...
Hey.. Christianity shouldn't say "this is the truth" when not exactly knowing! It's only because you've been a Christian all your life, right?