Captain America vs Black Panther

Originally posted by Capt.JK
I've read a few of the new BP comics, and I have nearly all of Cap's. If you look at back issues of the Avengers, you will find various mentions of Cap training all of the Avengers, both in hand-to-hand and team fighting tactics. Black Panther was a "competent" fighter when his character first came on the scene, but it was his training as an Avenger that made him the fighter he is now. Do you think Cap trained everybody EXCEPT Black Panther? And where pray-tell did you find a reference that puts T'Challa on PAR with Cap?

Every non-Cap fan I've ever talked to makes the same mistakes: Cap's a "boy scout", Cap isn't as agile as (insert their favorite character here), Cap can't fight as well as (insert their favorite character here). These are also usually people who have not read a whole lot about Cap (again, too "boy scoutish", not "gritty" enough). The truth is, according to MARVEL (you've heard of them, I'm sure; they're the ones who created Captain America), Cap is one of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the whole Marvel Universe. He does not knock his opponents down and then apologise and help them back up. He jumps on them and kicks their ass. His abilities are ABSOLUTE peak human capabilities. This includes agility. Nowhere does it say, "Cap has peak human physical abilities, EXCEPT for agility." He is the top rung of the human genome.

No amount of character reinventing is going to change the fact that Black Panther IS NOT going to beat Captain America in a one-on-one battle. Even BP says so.

Yes, I do doubt it. I don't believe that Captain America went to the extreme of what you're saying. Perhaps I'm misconstruing what it is you're getting at but my perception is that you're degrading the Black Panther by stating he required Captain America's assistance. As I recall Black Panther runs a country and was rarely ever around the Avengers unless he was truly required. He NEVER played ball with the team and was much like Batman was with the JLA. I'm sure he trained " WITH " Captain America so that they could operate better as a unit and not individuals. But somehow I seriously doubt that T'Challa owes his skills and prowess to some lowly American mongrel. T'Challa's character indicates that he's absolutely too PROUD to even concieve of such a notion as you mentioned. And so T'Challa makes an observation that Captain America is a worthy adversary and immediately you assume that means he's " superior " to him?

For those of you who don't know Black Panther, here's a small bio.

Black Panther (T'Challa):
Inactive member of the Avengers (seventh recruit); former unofficial associate of Defenders; former member of Fantastic Force. Warrior king of the African nation Wakanda and wearer of its ceremonial Black Panther garb, T'Challa took an extended leave from his duties to join the Avengers when the departing Captain America asked the Black Panther to replace him. At first, the Panther had the ulterior motive of discerning whether or not the Avengers represented a threat to his nation's interests, essentially spying on the group from within, but he soon grew to respect and admire the Avengers, serving the team faithfully. For an extended period, T'Challa divided his time between Wakanda, the Avengers and a dual identity as an American schoolteacher (Luke Charles), helping to educate American children regarding African culture. Inevitably, he decided to devote his principal energies to Wakanda and resumed his throne full-time, becoming an inactive member of the Avengers. He has served with the team on an irregular basis since then (often assisting in technical matters), and for a time was a member of the team called Fantastic Force. While he is committed first and foremost to ruling his country, the Panther has maintained his ties with the Avengers and continues to assist them on occasion.

I thought you would find this interesting. Read the part where it talks about BP being captured and the one who did it being physically bested by... Captain America.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/manape.htm

Also, read here where it says Captain America is one of the finest human combatants earth has ever known. Can't find any references like that about BP.
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm

Coincidentally, the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe" puts the CURRENT Black Panther 2 levels BELOW Cap in fighting skills.

And btw, I take just a little bit of offense to that "lowly American mongrel" statement. Where are you from, partner?

Marvel Directory though an interesting source for information tends to be one sided and often out of date when concerning individual character information. What applied 4 years ago doesn't exactly mix with what's currently happening in the comics. ( Ex; It states BP can land from 8 story buildings when in several comics it states anywhere from 30-60. )

Yes. And if you read the beginning of your own reference it states that Man-Ape is second to T'Challa as far as being one of Wakanda's greatest warriors. What's the point there?

Emphasis on one of. I have plenty of references that state that Black Panther is " one of " the most powerful men in the world. Does that make Captain America less " powerful "?Think about it for a moment from an objective point of view.

To state that Black Panther isn't a match for Captain America is just straight out fanboyism. Though I personally believe that were they in a scuffle it would take a great deal of Black Panther's resources and cunning to take Captain America down, a task that by no means would be easy consider he's fighting Cap, is entirely possible. I doubt Rogers would have asked someone to replace him were they not on par with his own skills and abilities. Just like it would be utterly for me to state that Black Panther could EASILY take down Captain America without great sacrifice or struggle. A somewhat objective point of view is what's required.

Calm down. The comment was made in reference to what Zuri ( BP Character ) stated about Americans in the BP comics. He sees them as " lowly American mongrels " in comparison to T'Challa who's a King, lest we forget. I'm from New York. Born and raised. Don't get overly patriotic on me homie.

Official Marvel Handbooks also say that Wolverine's eyes are " blue ". But I'm sure the readers who've followed the series know better.

RAWR!

Originally posted by Nathaniel Grey
Marvel Directory though an interesting source for information tends to be one sided and often out of date when concerning individual character information. What applied 4 years ago doesn't exactly mix with what's currently happening in the comics. ( Ex; It states BP can land from 8 story buildings when in several comics it states anywhere from 30-60. )

Yes. And if you read the beginning of your own reference it states that Man-Ape is second to T'Challa as far as being one of Wakanda's greatest warriors. What's the point there?

Well, first off, I was talking about the one that just came out. Hell, it even has a picture of BP with his really pretty gold fingernails and his new outfit. And as far as I can tell, the background and story info on BP ran right up until the handbook came out. Also, my point about Man-Ape was that he defeated T'Challa and most of his tribe and the rest of the Avengers. Then Cap showed up and took him down.

I am not saying that Cap would EASILY defeat BP, but he WOULD defeat him. BP is not the caliber of character that Cap is. Period. Black Panther is more adept at street crime. Cap hangs with the "big boys" on a daily basis. And Cap placed T'Challa in charge of the Avengers during his absense for his skills at being a leader as much as for anything else. It also helped to solidify BP's place in the Avengers. If he was merely going to put someone in charge who could beat him up , he would have given the reigns to Thor.

Then apparently you haven't read a single issue of Chris Priest's Black Panther. What does BP get from dealing with ordinary " Street " Crime? Nothing. That element has absolutely NOTHING to do with the security of Wakanda which has always been the characters main concern. Now you're just out right insulting the integrity of the character himself. Black Panther not the same caliber of character? I beg to differ. Black Panther has always fought against and with the " big boys" as you've put it. I can name NUMEROUS high profile villians that he's tangled with. ( Magneto, Dr. Doom, Mephisto, Red Skull ) Even some I doubt Captain America himself could handle. My point is you seem to just write off the Black Panther as so many readers do. He's come a long way from being just a " man in black tights ". He's much more than many admit he is and it's a shame that few regard him as little more than a " street crime fighter ". The man is a global warrior. He can declare war on countries and even cripple ( Marvel ) America economically. Give credit where credit is due. Viewing him as a " second string " character just goes to show how little is truly known about the character on your part. Stop looking at their conflict with one another through fanboy eyes and try to be objective. Though I agree -- Black Panther physically wouldn't stand toe to toe with Captain America but he is a SMARTER and more tatical fighter. He stays ones step ahead of those he fights and often causes them to blink when he wishes.

Saying Black Panther is a "more tactical" fighter than Captain America has got to be one of the most "fanboyistic" (hey, I made up a new word) statements I have ever read in a thread, right up there next to Bat Man vs Everybody. Cap is the epitome of battlefield and combat tactics. His character's whole concept is based on it! And once again, whether you like it or not, BP SAYS SO HIMSELF. And saying BP could declare war on America or cripple it economically has NOTHING to do with a hand-to-hand joust between the two men. You admit yourself that BP can't go toe-to-toe with Cap... well, what are we talking about then? Can T'Challa run a country better than Cap? Absolutely. Is BP one savvy politician, who has brought his country out of the jungle and to the forefront of global technology and economics? Without a doubt.

WHICH HAS ABSOLUTELY ZERO TO DO WITH CAP TAKING HIM OUTSIDE AND SPANKING HIM ON THE BATTLEFIELD!!!

That said, I appreciate that Marvel has chosen to explore new story lines and arcs with what I always felt was an underrated character, but please don't "jump on the bandwagon" and declare him the "be-all end-all" of hand-to-hand in the Marvel Universe just because you like his "grittiness". There are already enough Wolverine and Deadpool fans to go around for that. Marvel Comics, the guys who OWN these characters, and who are responsible for every story printed about them, say that CAP IS BETTER. Period. End of discussion. Write a petition to Marvel and plead your case, but facts is facts. Cap wins.

Side note;

First I'd like to bring up a point that will probably destroy the credibility of any and all websites. Now according to MARVEL.COM ( The OFFICIAL website of Marvel. ) Captain America and Black Panther have the exact same durability, strength and speed. The only places they varied were in Intelligence in which Black Panther excelled over Captain America. Energy projection in which Black Panther excelled over Captain America and Fighting Skill in which Captain America excelled over Black Panther. Now this is Marvel.com...the OFFICIAL site of Marvel and I'm sure you don't agree with some of the points on there but what more is there to say if this is the OFFICIAL site? Concerning their abilities that is.

The fact of the matter is in every battle they've had thus far Black Panther has been defeated by Captain America. ( Though I see each of their fights without merit due to the circumstances of their battles. ) I still believe their fights could have been better written in the past and that the character of Black Panther was seriously underwritten and underestimated as he has been for many years. Hopefully this latest installment of the series will prove otherwise and will bring T'Challa out in the forefront again giving him the credibility and adulation he deserves. While I personally agree that Captain America has the physical strength and durability over Black Panther I still don't believe he's a more intelligent fighter than Black Panther. It just doesn't fit the comparisons they been offered. Christopher Priest has written the character to be more than an " exceptional acrobat with cat-like skills " he's a superior fighter who's on PAR with even the likes of Captain America.

Actually, I do agree. I would say that Cap and BP's physical attributes are pretty close to even. And I would also agree that BP's IQ is definitely higher. He's a tecnogenius; Cap isn't. And Cap has no energy projection of any kind, so if you have a point there, I'm missing what it is. I personally believe that Cap's physical qualities are slightly higher, because if you read the text (you may also check the recently released Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe), Cap's are slightly above BP. And Cap's fighting skills are far above BP.

WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!

You did read the title, didn't you? Captain America VS Black Panther. Not Captain America vs Black Panther's bank accounts. Not Captain America vs Black Panther's SAT Scores. This thread is about who would win in a fight. CAP WINS.

The thread is about a one on one fight. It's about WHO'S the smarter fighter not necessarily who's stronger than who or who's got more skills than who. And I personally don't believe that Captain America is the more intelligent combatant. Black Panther in his own comics has always ( just like Captain America ) triumphed over adversity. And seeing as how Captain America is just about his physical superior I see T'Challa using his many resources ( weapons..etc ) to take down Cap. Black Panther is the SMARTER fighter. Period. It'd be a close fight and one that couldn't be called on a whim.

All C.R.A.P. Captain America is the smarter FIGHTER. BP is BOOK smarter. On the playground, the better fighter wins. The one who has better skills at hand-to-hand wins. The one who is THE expert at hand-to-hand combat wins. Just because T'Challa can plot complicated socio-economic algorythms in his head does not make him a better fighter. Cap wins. EVEN BLACK PANTHER SAYS SO!

Let's recap:
Cap is THE better fighter. YOU even admit to it.
MARVEL admits to it.
BLACK PANTHER admits to it.
Hmmm... you seem to be alone in your misplaced confidences.
BP is smarter than Cap, but Cap is the smarter FIGHTER.

Cap wins.

Yes, Black Panther is " Book smarter " as well as battle savvy. All around his intellect and cunning add to his strategic abilities. Yes, Captain America is a supreme tactician on the field but seeing as how T'Challa commands his own personal army one can only assume that his own tactical expertise is just as potent as Caps. Cap the better fighter? I never said that. I said Captain America most likely had the advantage in strength and endurance. Black Panther saying that Cap was the better warrior? I've personally never read him saying so. Yes, he did say he was impressed with Captain America's skill and ability but now you're just embellishing that single quote you bring up. Black Panther is a KING and his personality would NEVER allow him to say such a thing. Marvel.Com? That site stated that his fight skill was ranked higher by two points. That's not a very large gap between them and by no means a final determining factor that would lead to Captain America overtly dominating a battle between them. You agree that Black Panther's intellect has dominion over Captain America's, correct? Then why wouldn't that also allow T'Challa to have a superior mind when it came to dealing with Rogers? Or devising tools and weapons that would easily allow him to turn the tide of the conflict? Or creating vastly superior BATTLE strategies when dealing with Cap. After all it takes a BOOK SMART warrior to devise great battle strategies. Some of the greatest battle tacticians are also Harvard GRADUATES and Black Panther makes them look like children.

Let's take another look at this battle that could happen. First, Captain America's shield would be ALL but useless against T'Challa. Seeing as how he KNOWS inside and out the properties of vibranium and vibranium alloys I doubt it'd take much for him to devise a way to rupture or ever destroy Caps shield. That's a FACT. The man has the scientific knowledge and resources to deal with Captain America's ONE and only weapon. Not to mention the FACT that his claws allow him to easily disrupt and break down metals INCLUDING adamantium and vibranium. Don't believe that? The writer who made his " anti-metal " claws ( Christopher J. Priest; Captain America & Falcon, Black Panther, The Crew ) wrote it to be that way. Maybe that isn't enough? Well Black Panther's suit is composed of a vibranium mesh. It SAPS any and ALL objects of their momentum rending them useless. If Cap tried to throw his shield or hit T'Challa with it there would be little to NO effect. PERIOD. There's NO way around that. It's written in stone. ( For the moment. ) So there -- Captain America's shield is rendered pretty much useless and is no longer a factor in the battle. And according to MARVEL.COM his skills in combination with his " one and only weapon " allow him to be one of the greatest combatants? Right?

That would leave Captain America with his greatly enhanced endurance ( metabolism & fatigue resistance ), strength, speed, agility as well as his legendary battle tactics and strategies, superior hand to hand combat skills, indomitable spirit. ( If I'm missing anything I know you'll inform me. )

versus

Black Panther's greatly enhanced endurance, strength, speed, agility ( all of which " Marvel.com " says Black Panther is on PAR with Captain America. ), tactical strategies, superior INTELLECT, superior hand to hand combat skills, indomitable spirit, vibranium mesh suit ( which absorbs any and all kinetic impact, unleashes an electromagnetic charge, cloaks via Black Panther issue #56, enhances his agility and durability, walk up walls and land from a 60 story drop. ), anti-metal claws, energy dagger ( which both stuns foes on contact and kills as well as fires off energy bolts ), glove implants which disperse an African nerve toxin able to take down several elephants via Black Panther mini series #1-4 as well as unleash a deadly energy plasm which slices through damn near anything via Black Panther #58.

Now with all of these technological weapons and gadgets I'm sure that Captain America CAN'T avoid every single one of them. The toxins though they wouldn't KILL him would certainly slow him down enough allowing Black Panther to take the advantage and kick the mess out of Cap. Hm. Or let's look at it another way. Captain America gets his hands on T'Challa and begins to pummel him all the while his blows are being sapped by the vibranium mesh suit T'Challa's wearing enough to allow him to stab Cap with one of his energy daggers or he could use the force of his vibranium boots to push himself off of Captain then allowing him to slash him with the claws or hit him with another dose of his toxins. Let's say that Captain never gets hit with the nerve toxin, that's a possibility. Black Panther could easily employ the use of his personal cloaking devise and beat the living crap out of Cap without him even seeing where the hits are coming from. Or wait here's another possibility. Black Panther decides that he wants to go toe to toe with Cap without using his many gadgets and Cap slips up and calls BP something out of context maybe " weak " or something insulting in Hausa -- then Black Panther takes off his gloves and decides he's going to break Roger's jaw like he did to Red Skull.

The point I'm trying to make is that Captain America isn't the end all be all for human combatants. Yes, he is a great fighter and is ONE OF the best. Just like T'Challa is ONE OF the best. But Cap isn't invulnerable nor is he untouchable when it comes to a scrap. As I see it you're just another Cap fanboy who just can't see your icon lose in a battle to an adversary that has all the qualification to take him down ( albeit an arduous and strenuous task. ) This battle would be all about who's the smarter and most CUNNING fighter. The one who can not only defeat his foe physically but mentally as well. Captain America as great as he is just doesn't match up to the sheer nerve, intellect and cunning that Black Panther represents. He's the SMARTER and more resourceful fighter. Captain America has the strength and the will but not the means to topple the Black Panther. BP WINS using his superior Intellect and unmatched cunning against Caps cowboy theatrics.

::rings the bell and walks away.::

P.S. I'm have a great debate with you on this topic. Keep'em coming man. I am sincerely having fun.

Just wanted add some things about BP's suit.

*energy dampening soles in his boots. Energy regulators create varying fields from the Vibranium in the molded soles of the boots, enabling Panther to survive a fall and land like a cat. Given enough momentum, Panther can also scale walls or walk on water, and the field can be also used offensively to shatter or weaken objects.

Originally posted by Nathaniel Grey
P.S. I'm have a great debate with you on this topic. Keep'em coming man. I am sincerely having fun.

Me too. I've got a couple of things to take care of, but I'll retort ASAP. Didn't want you to mistake my slow response as an inability to argue; I have a plethora of stuff to say.

Side note: Did you notice we're the only 2 on this thread now?

not anymore........sorry i just had to do it

im not gonna say anything though lol

Hey, by all means, jump on in! (Unless you voted for Panther, then just mind your own business.) 😆

lol, nah i just dont wanna say anything because both of you prove good arguements and i have none to make on either character, i dont know too much on bp and know maybe a little more about cap