Originally posted by focus4chumps
because the grand moff was the only one depicted as having authority over vader besides the emperor. its called "frame of reference".
This point of yours requires you to ignore another point I made about Vader acting autonomously at times in ANH. But I think you're right about what you say later. I'll visit that, in a second.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
its called "battlefield promotion" (look it up before setting off on your next wildly scatterbrained and lengthy retort). the former admiral was killed and vader was the commanding officer. its common military practice.
again you have no frame of reference to support your claim of vader's promotion. yet another easily dismissible non-point.
I do not honestly think your point here addresses the point I made in the section you quotted. You're just restating what I am stating but with different words. It does not contradict that point I brought up, only talks about it in a different way. Yes, we know it was a battlefield promotion...from whence commeth his authority to promote on the fly like that? Why can he promote all the way up to admiral and KILL admirals with no repercussions from, say, a Moff?
Again, "But I think you're right about what you say later. I'll visit that, in a second."
Originally posted by focus4chumps
got it. you're right and the credits at the end of ep4 are wrong.
Everywhere I look on the interwebz, it says Motti was an admiral and Tagge a general. They even have different shirt rank thingies and Motti's shirt thingies match other admirals. I don't see the end credits being posted as evidence in this thread.
Just look at all the results that say Motti was an Admiral:
https://www.google.com/search?q=admiral+motti&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t
(Let me know if that link doesn't work).
Same with Tagge:
Originally posted by focus4chumps
while its clear vader has a special arrangement within the command structure (gets away with assaulting lower ranking officers and gets admonished with a gentle brow-beating), its clear...again....that tarkin wore the pants in that room. PAINFULLY CLEAR. also that was not a situation which warranted vader promoting/demoting since...again...tarkin was the commanding officer
It is not painfully clear. You want it to be clear but it really just isn't. You are willfully ignoring other evidence that contradicts you position. Remember, I have never asserted that Vader is superior to Tarkin or even inferior...just different.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
more bootless and fallacious drivel.
what part of "direct control" does not apply to the military in a miltary/police state? i find it fascinating that you're going to keep breathing life into this nonesensical non-issue
If you take a step back and think about it more objectively and less emotionally, don't you think you have a false sense of superiority in your position? Clearly, there is ambiguity on this particular topic. If there wasn't, the mods would have closed this thread on page 1.
If it were cut and dry, why has this discussion been had on multiple forums and there are clearly differing opinions on those sites and this site, too?
But onwards:
Originally posted by focus4chumps
more bootless pontification.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
then you obviously have your own special arbitrarily method of translating plain direct english:
Are these types of posts really necessary? Can you at least pretend to not be a troll to have a normal conversation? 😬
Lastly:
Originally posted by focus4chumps
perhaps the emperor just sends him on errands and defines his authority on a mission by mission basis.
This is probably the most sound and concise reasoning for this thread. I can forget about all the other things we've been discussing and agree, here. If you want this to function as a concession, so be it.
Originally posted by Robtard
IMO, I saw Vader as outside the normal military command structure. He's the Emperor's enforcer, is sent in to make sure operations are flowing according to plan; does what he wants mostly but still knows his place on the food chain./end rant
As did I. I more or less stated this.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Um? False memory syndrome, maybe?
I don't know if that is a problem you're suffering from but if you say so. Don't be so hard on yourself, though: you seem to remember quite a bit.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ummm pretty sure there was no Admiral Griff in ANH/ESB.
Certainly not referred to.. (neither by name, or even on the credits...) The point made about Battlefield promotion covered that. Vader doesn't seem to directly have the authority to promote people in the military, (if he isn't in it, technically) any more than Xenomorphs had the "authority" to promote Corporal Hicks to command in 'Aliens'... (Hicks ended up in command because Apone and anyone higher were killed)So this Admiral Griff EU character is inadmissable too, yes?
You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.
And, it is directly seen on screen that Vader has the authority to promote people all the way up to Admiral, at the very least, in ESB. I don't know what you're talking about with all that other stuff...because we saw it happen. Also, Aliens is an entirely different movie: hardly useable as evidence for why and what Vader did.
Originally posted by dadudemon👆
To me, he acknowledged the argument before you posted it:"Even IF you want to call official guides/bios "non-usable EU material..."
But, feel free to ask him if you thinks the guide is superior to the movies as far as canonicity is concerned.
To clarify before you state it, he thinks the guide is useful in this instance due to the ambiguity in the movie:
"...it is still nigh-ludicrous to disregard that much evidence in favor of a few [ambiguous] statements made during ANH. Imo."
Originally posted by UshgarakFair enough.
First of all, Galan, I'm afraid that really does count as EU material so it really should not be in this debate.
Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.
And, it is directly seen on screen that Vader has the authority to promote people all the way up to Admiral, at the very least, in ESB. I don't know what you're talking about with all that other stuff...because we saw it happen. Also, Aliens is an entirely different movie: hardly useable as evidence for why and what Vader did.
Nah all he'd need is knowledge of who was currently admiral (the guy he chokes out) and whom his immediate under was.
Are you saying Vader was so dumb that he wouldn't be able to know what battlefield promotion was? Are you saying that he would just assume that if an admiral was killed or fragged that no one could or would replace him? Or are you just desperately trying to avoid admitting that you are most likely wrong?
(Something you really needn't do, as it can happen to anyone)
Be it another film or not it was an example that works of battlefield promotion that translates well to a military command structure that -'Grand Moffs' aside- seems to have the same system as the US military on Earth..?
first thought when reading all that: "dear god if only george rr martin had ddm's level of literary inspiration and speed of churning out creative writing, winter would have ended over 4 years ago." but to be fair he also has to engage us by providing substance and consistency.
my favorite part:
Originally posted by dadudemon
Everywhere I look on the interwebz, it says Motti was an admiral and Tagge a general. They even have different shirt rank thingies and Motti's shirt thingies match other admirals. I don't see the end credits being posted as evidence in this thread.
😂
this is exactly your problem. it is factually in the end credits of the film which you profess expertise, but you demand screencaps. fine i'll jump down yet another of your silly rabbit-holes:
(this was especially a pain in the ass since apple's dvd player doesnt allow screencaps, so thats from my celphone cam. the things i do for love)
but then again your interwebz pages say he's an admiral so that must be correct.
now i suppose i have to find an actual high ranking military officer to explain "battle promotions" to you? that could prove impossible, so i guess my point is rendered moot, right? 🙄
2nd favorite part of your scatterbrained charade:
Originally posted by dadudemon
If you take a step back and think about it more objectively and less emotionally, don't you think you have a false sense of superiority in your position?Clearly, there is ambiguity on this particular topic. If there wasn't, the mods would have closed this thread on page 1.If it were cut and dry, why has this discussion been had on multiple forums and there are clearly differing opinions on those sites and this site, too?
if only you were the mod, some sense would be restored to this forum, right? after all, the question is "How come Moff Tarkin is higher on the food chain than Darth Vader?", not "Was Moff Tarkin higher on the food chain than Darth Vader?"
since you are sure that vader was in fact above the command structure, and thus not subordinate to tarkin, this whole thread is completely and utterly moot and should be locked right away, correct?
oh well i guess we're all forced witness this thread proceed, and continue enduring ush's halfassery in leaving it open (deductive reasoning, knowledge of fact vs. speculation, having seen the films more than once, perhaps the pathetic drive to even view them again...ugh)
almost forgot
Originally posted by dadudemonThis is probably the most sound and concise reasoning for this thread. I can forget about all the other things we've been discussing and agree, here. If you want this to function as a concession, so be it.
ddm, this is called a "debate". its what people do when there is no objective fact answering and closing the topic. in this case, people present plausible explanations and compare/contrast. maybe if you were not so fucused on winning you wouldnt have to constantly make such an embarrassing spectacle of yourself.
that portion of my post which you took as a "concession" is actually me presenting/accepting one of many possible explanations. "possible", ddm.
you should learn to do the same. god forbid anyone presents a plausible answer which contradicts yours, or worse yet points out a blatant flaw in your reasoning; rather than being open minded or simply accepting another possibility, you just....
YouTube video
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Those credits actually have Tagge's name (as given in the script and GL's notes) wrong.I do think Motti is wearing a General's uniform though. I'll have to watch it again.
even if a minor difference in insignias exists, there may be different levels of general which could explain it. for an american example: 1 star/brigadier gen, 2 star/major gen, 3 star/lieutenant gen, 4 star/chief of staff.
:edit: before ddm gets excited and jumps all over this, i'm just using this as a line of reasoning and not attempting a direct comparrison to the u.s. military command structure...especially since our navy and coast guard have admirals but no generals, and vice versa for the other military branches.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You didn't, as Ush duely noted...said syndrome in action...? 😛
Well, you tried, at least, to make fun of me. But it didn't work.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Nah all he'd need is knowledge of who was currently admiral (the guy he chokes out) and whom his immediate under was.
Are you saying Vader was so dumb that he wouldn't be able to know what battlefield promotion was? Are you saying that he would just assume that if an admiral was killed or fragged that no one could or would replace him? Or are you just desperately trying to avoid admitting that you are most likely wrong?
(Something you really needn't do, as it can happen to anyone)Be it another film or not it was an example that works of battlefield promotion that translates well to a military command structure that -'Grand Moffs' aside- seems to have the same system as the US military on Earth..?
None of this drivel is relevant, at all. It is not worth replying to.
Case in point: he was called captain by Vader, and then Admiral by Vader in the same conversation. Vader gave the promotion.
this is the funniest exchange i've read here in a while. surely it must be parody 😂
Originally posted by dadudemon
Remember Griff? Vader promoted him to Admiral in ESB.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So this Admiral Griff EU character is inadmissable too, yes?
Originally posted by dadudemon
You obviously know who I was talking about. Clearly I meant Admiral Ozzel.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not quite your day I am afraid- you mean Piett
Originally posted by dadudemon
I meant this guy, on the left:
yes! thats admiral ozzel being promoted 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Originally posted by focus4chumps
this is the funniest exchange i've read here in a while. surely it must be parody 😂yes! thats admiral ozzel being promoted 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Troll harder:
By Admiral Ozzel, I meant the Admiral choked out, not the admiral promoted. The admiral promoted was Piett. Even if context implies otherwise, you don't get to choose what I meant.
If you knew who Griff was, you'd understand why I confused him for Ozzel: Ozzel replaced Griff after Griff died. It was literally a Freudian slip.