Homosexuality: Chosen or Genetic?

Started by whobdamandog324 pages

Originally posted by Ushgarak
To all three-

If so... so what?

Biologically natural- I don't care.

Compatible with natural selection- I don't care

Genetic mutation (whatever you mean by THAT)- I don't care

None of those three have anything do do with whether homosexuality is morally acceptable or not.

If you want to talk about something and not seem 'pathetic', try and actually talk to the point.

I can only assume from your quote above, that you have admitted that the arguments supporting homosexuality being solely dependant upon one's "genetics/biology" have been thoroughly defeated. So as a last resort, in a typical relativistic fashion😉, you're now attempting to resort to the commonly used "morality" argument.

Before we delve deeper into the "morality" aspect of homosexuality. Let us first define the term that we are using. This is essential if one ever hopes to get their point across.



Morality

The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
Virtuous conduct.
A rule or lesson in moral conduct.

Typically, most modern civilizations have defined such behaviors as being "immoral(bad)" Many reasons come to mind as to why these behaviors are defined that way. "Spiritual/Supernatural" religions definitely play a key role in defining homosexual behavior as being morally unacceptable. Particularly the monotheistic religions of Christianity, Islam, and similar belief systems that adhere to Judeo - Christian based doctrines.

However, even without making religion the primary bent to the morality argument, many "secular" societies have deemed such behaviors immoral as well. Take note that I use the term "secular" loosely in this context, specifically to represent "non - spiritual/supernatural" based religions. (i.e., Humanism, Agnosticism, Atheism, etc.)

With that being stated, let us now define why such behavior has been deemed "morally unacceptable" in "secular" societies.

1. It goes against the predominant pairing in nature, which is represented by the coupling between a male/female of a species.

2. Such behavior is often linked to sexual promiscuity. Those who are promiscuous are often thought to carry sexual diseases (and rightfully so, there is a direct correlation between promiscuity and the spread of STD's)

Statistically speaking, homosexual relationships often don't last as long as their heterosexual counterparts. In addition to this, the partners of such unions are generally found to be sexually promiscuous. The following is a brief list of these sociological studies, in addition to statistics taken from varied sources:


A recent study of Dutch homosexual men found that homosexual unions simply do not last. The study found that the average homosexual relationship lasts only 1-½ years. By comparison, more than two-thirds of heterosexual marriages in America last longer than ten years.

Dr. Maria Xiridou, of the Amsterdam Municipal Health Service, conducted the survey, which was published in the May edition of the AIDS Journal. Not only did her research indicate the failed longevity of homosexual relationships, it showed that rampant promiscuity that exists in homosexual unions. Dr. Xiridou’s research found that “men in homosexual relationships, on average, have eight partners a year outside those relationships.”


The Advocate, America’s largest gay magazine, published the results of their own survey in the August 1994 edition. Their research found:

Fifty-seven percent of gay readers claimed more than thirty sexual partners during their lifetime.

Thirty-five percent claimed more than one hundred sexual partners in their lifetime.

Forty-eight percent admitted having a “three-way” sexual encounter during the past five years.

Twenty-nine percent admitted to meeting their partners in a bathhouse or a sex club.

The complete article with sources on all of these topics can be found at the following site.

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/pages/NEWS/news.aspx?story=1296

Taking all of the statistical and scientific data into consideration, I feel it necessary to now ask you all how such lifestyles can be defined as being "moral", based on the information given above? What social benefits do such behaviors offer to a society?

In retrospect, when one looks at the "moral" aspect of homosexuality, it is very difficult to determine how it can be deemed as such. Particularly when statistics and science, prove that such behavior has degenerative effects on all of those who directly/indirectly embrace it.

With higher separation rates & higher risks of spreading STD's due to promiscuity, one can obviously conclude that this would mean more tax dollars going into social health care systems, and various other social programs. Indeed from an economic standpoint, such relationships offer very few monetary gains and no social rewards to a culture. The only gains a society could truly attest to receiving from such relationships, would be those which represented broken homes, lost ambitions, and failing health conditions.

All of these things being stated, the only clear argument one has left to present for homosexuality being "good", is that two individuals who are homosexuals, could indeed be "in love with each other."

I believe this argument now brings us to the age old adage...

"What is love?"

Do we define it be sexuality?

Is it defined by procreation?

Is it defined by romance?

In this lifetime, I don't believe one will ever be able to completely define what love is, however, I believe we all can clearly define what it is not...

It is not selfish...
It is not untruthful...
It never fails...

Homosexual behavior strictly involves the pleasing of one's self..

Often times those who engage in such behavior do not use true natural-biological functions of various body parts...

The behavior fails in producing offspring which will allow for the continuation/advancement(syn evolution) of a species

With that being stated, one is entitled to make whatever choices they desire in life, however, it is always important to remember that choice and not genetics, will ultimately be responsible for the outcomes that directly follow each decision one has made.

Fin

Originally posted by whobdamandog
blah blah blah....
Often times those who engage in such behavior do not use true natural-biological functions of various body parts...
blah blah blah...

Once again! Please explain why the prostate can orgasm.. As its quite clear this is something that homosexuals are using, and are obviously using a natural-biological function of the organ...

Or to you just want to keep typing and ignoring all the relevant counter points made, hoping that if you keep thumping the bible and basic biology some how people will suddenly ignore all the faults in your argument....

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Whob, straight men have affairs too. Straight people can be promiscuious too, straight peopel contract STD's yet we only hear about how bad it is to be gay?
Originally posted by whobdamandog
I can only assume from your quote above, that you have admitted that the arguments supporting homosexuality being solely dependant upon one's "genetics/biology" have been thoroughly defeated. So as a last resort, in a typical relativistic fashion😉, you're now attempting to resort to the commonly used "morality" argument.

No one has made such an admission. Ushgarak is simply arguing that whether homosexuality is an immutable characteristic or a conscious lifestyle choice has nothing to do with whether it is moral or immoral.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Before we delve deeper into the "morality" aspect of homosexuality. Let us first define the term that we are using. This is essential if one ever hopes to get their point across.

Typically, most modern civilizations have defined such behaviors as being "immoral(bad)" Many reasons come to mind as to why these behaviors are defined that way. "Spiritual/Supernatural" religions definitely play a key role in defining homosexual behavior as being morally unacceptable. Particularly the monotheistic religions of Christianity, Islam, and similar belief systems that adhere to Judeo - Christian based doctrines.

Morality and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
However, even without making religion the primary bent to the morality argument, many "secular" societies have deemed such behaviors immoral as well. Take note that I use the term "secular" loosely in this context, specifically to represent "non - spiritual/supernatural" based religions. (i.e., Humanism, Agnosticism, Atheism, etc.)

By all means, name a secular society that considers homosexuality immoral.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
With that being stated, let us now define why such behavior has been deemed "morally unacceptable" in "secular" societies.

1. It goes against the predominant pairing in nature, which is represented by the coupling between a male/female of a species.

2. Such behavior is often linked to sexual promiscuity. Those who are promiscuous are often thought to carry sexual diseases (and rightfully so, there is a direct correlation between promiscuity and the spread of STD's)

Statistically speaking, homosexual relationships often don't last as long as their heterosexual counterparts. In addition to this, the partners of such unions are generally found to be sexually promiscuous. The following is a brief list of these sociological studies, in addition to statistics taken from varied sources:

The complete article with sources on all of these topics can be found at the following site.

http://www.reclaimamerica.org/pages/NEWS/news.aspx?story=1296

Taking all of the statistical and scientific data into consideration, I feel it necessary to now ask you all how such lifestyles can be defined as being "moral", based on the information given above? What social benefits do such behaviors offer to a society?

In retrospect, when one looks at the "moral" aspect of homosexuality, it is very difficult to determine how it can be deemed as such. Particularly when statistics and science, prove that such behavior has degenerative effects on all of those who directly/indirectly embrace it.

This commits the logic fallacy of False Analogy as it attempts to draw a comparison between two dissimilar things, i.e. a de facto homosexual union in Denmark and a heterosexual marriage in the United States:

[list][*]One cannot draw a valid comparison between what is normative in Denmark and what is normative in the United States.

[*]One cannot draw a valid comparison between a de facto relationship and a marriage.[/list]

[list][*]One can draw a valid comparison between a homosexual marriage in Denmark and a heterosexual marriage in Denmark.

[*]One can draw a valid comparison between a de facto homosexual union in the United States and a de facto heterosexual union in the United States.[/list]

60 Minutes - The Science of Sexual Orientation

"Straight men are more interested than straight women in having casual, uncommitted sex. Gay men are like that, too," says Bailey.

"One has the impression that gay men are much more inclined toward casual sex than straight men," Stahl said.

"They're just more successful at it, because the people they're trying to have sex with are also interested in it," Bailey explained.

"But don't you find this interesting that the one big area where gay men are more like straight men is in sex? I mean, that is…both amusing and odd," Stahl said.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
With higher separation rates & higher risks of spreading STD's due to promiscuity, one can obviously conclude that this would mean more tax dollars going into social health care systems, and various other social programs. Indeed from an economic standpoint, such relationships offer very few monetary gains and no social rewards to a culture. The only gains a society could truly attest to receiving from such relationships, would be those which represented broken homes, lost ambitions, and failing health conditions.

According to the Center for Disease Control, heterosexual contact is the number one risk factor for contracting a sexually transmitted disease. This is because 76% of homosexuals use condoms as compared to less than 17% of heterosexuals.

Moreover, 60% of all marriages in the United States end in divorce, even though marriage in this country is limited exclusively to heterosexuals.

Since heterosexuals have such a high separation rate and higher risks of contracting sexually transmitted diseases due to having unprotected sex, one can obviously conclude that this would mean more tax dollars going into social health care systems, and various other social programs.

This being the case, it would seem that such relationships offer very few monetary gains and no social rewards to a culture from an economic standpoint.

Indeed, the only gains a society could truly attest to receiving from such relationships would be those which represented broken homes, lost ambitions, and failing health conditions.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
All of these things being stated, the only clear argument one has left to present for homosexuality being "good", is that two individuals who are homosexuals, could indeed be "in love with each other."

I believe this argument now brings us to the age old adage...

"What is love?"

Do we define it be sexuality?

Is it defined by procreation?

Is it defined by romance?

In this lifetime, I don't believe one will ever be able to completely define what love is, however, I believe we all can clearly define what it is not...

It is not selfish...
It is not untruthful...
It never fails...

Homosexual behavior strictly involves the pleasing of one's self..

Often times those who engage in such behavior do not use true natural-biological functions of various body parts...

The behavior fails in producing offspring which will allow for the continuation/advancement(syn evolution) of a species

With that being stated, one is entitled to make whatever choices they desire in life, however, it is always important to remember that choice and not genetics, will ultimately be responsible for the outcomes that directly follow each decision one has made.

Fin

Often times heterosexuals engage in behavior that does not use natural or biological functions of various body parts, and fails in producing offspring.

Apparently, heterosexuals do not truly love one another.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Typically, most modern civilizations have defined such behaviors as being "immoral(bad)"

You are clearly not familiar with "most civilizations". Oh, by the way, the planet is more than 6000 years old.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
However, even without making religion the primary bent to the morality argument, many "secular" societies have deemed such behaviors immoral as well.

I'll refer you to Adams question. And immoral should be in quotes.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
1. It goes against the predominant pairing in nature

Predominant does not imply the meaning of the term "only". I also find it hard to imagine your reasoning for using nature as an argument, especially considering your belief that humanity is not a part of nature.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Statistically speaking, homosexual relationships often don't last as long as their heterosexual counterparts.

Check your statistics again. Most relationships and marriages, period, don't last.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
www.reclaimamerica.org

Did you check any of the other pages on this site? Agenda be damned I suppose.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
With higher separation rates & higher risks of spreading STD's due to promiscuity,

Once again, your facts are corrupt. Check them again and then post some sites that agree with your assumption. Trust me, it may be supported, but it isn't true.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
"What is love?"

It is not selfish...
It is not untruthful...
It never fails...

You haven't been in too many relationships, have you? Consider me so suprised.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Homosexual behavior strictly involves the pleasing of one's self

Next time you're doing your best to avoid the cum of another man that's all over your bed, you can talk about pleasuring yourself. As it is, your lies would imply that you don't even masturbate. (Masturbation, I might add, is not conducive to reproduction...you stone-aged hypocrit.)

Originally posted by whobdamandog
continuation/advancement(syn evolution)

I might add, you are unclear about a couple of things.

It's either:

The meaning of the word 'synonym'

(or)

the context of the term 'evolution'

you clearly can not understand that the term "evolution" does not imply some form of socially understood "advancment". If you operate under the misconception that evolution is advancing a species to some ultimate goal, then you have zero understanding of the theory. Study up on modern evolutionary theory and get back to me.

how do i deal with my 8 year old daughter, she has recently been getting very upset [her dad came out the closet 4 months ago] and she is at that age she does'nt understand about sexuality. she says she does'nt understand how two men can love each other and she thinks its wrong. she happenedto make an innocent comment at school that her daddy has a best friend [b/f] now she is getting alot of stick for it, and as she doe'nt understand she did'nt think saying that would cause her so much upset !!! i had to get her dad over to explain it to her as him being gay best it came from him. he tried his best to make her understand but she is still confused and very tearful .Then he started talking about aids saying some gays can get aids, but he wont get it , now she is more confused than ever !!!! she loves her dad so much but does'nt understandbout it all. Do you think she was told to early in her life!!!!! 😕

Not really, 8 seems alright, but why does she think it is wrong? Where did she get the Idea from. I think she should have maybe been accustomed to the idea. But I suppose you didn't know either, so there's not much you could have done. How do you deal with it though? Did you know before?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not really, 8 seems alright, but why does she think it is wrong? Where did she get the Idea from. I think she should have maybe been accustomed to the idea. But I suppose you didn't know either, so there's not much you could have done. How do you deal with it though? Did you know before?

i was married to him 4 13 years and had no clue!!! we did split up b4 he told me he was gay. i think its because her mum and dad were together and thats all she knew, a man and a woman, and beings she is only 8 does'nt know any different . not done about sexuality yet at school didn't even know what the word gay ment until her dad had to explain it to her. i have got over the shock now i just wants whats best for her and hate seeing her crying and getting upset over it .

Em'J, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

Younger children usually have an easier time adjusting. They haven' t learned (or shouldn' t have learned) the societal biases against gays and lesbians yet.
8 seems to be a good age to begin to discuss sex in more detail with children, in age-appropriate language.

Originally posted by Eis
Em'J, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

i am 37

Originally posted by Storm
Younger children usually have an easier time adjusting. They haven' t learned (or shouldn' t have learned) the societal biases against gays and lesbians yet.
8 seems to be a good age to begin to discuss sex in more detail with children, in age-appropriate language.

its really wierd i have too children and the 11 year old took it so much better than my 8 year old. he is always being taunted at school about being gay but i think thats just kids banter. he is a worrier but he is fine with his dads sexuality my daughter on the other hand does'nt worry about a thing and speaks her mind alot !!! lol just went into a shell over this !!!!!!!!!!

"I can only assume from your quote above, that you have admitted that the arguments supporting homosexuality being solely dependant upon one's "genetics/biology" have been thoroughly defeated."

'Admitted' it?

I never defended it, genius. You like to make things up about other people, don't you? Very presumptive. More evidence of your immaturity in arguments.

More importantly... I seriosuly don't care whether it is or not, it makes no difference.

---

"Typically, most modern civilizations have defined such behaviors as being "immoral(bad)""

I don't care. They used to say equality for blacks and women was immoral as well.

---

"1. It goes against the predominant pairing in nature, which is represented by the coupling between a male/female of a species. "

I don't care. I couldn't give the tiniest toss about its relationship to nature. Nature is full of shit and has nothing to do with right or wrong.

---

"2. Such behavior is often linked to sexual promiscuity"

And heterosexuality isn't?

One thing is linked to promiscuity and one thing alone- sexual liberisation. The opening up of sexuality beyond the old, repressive doctrine of, say, the Church.

Homosexuality is only really possible in a sexually liberalised soceity. But it's not the cause of it.

It's also because the male/male sexual world is a very different one, by default, than the male/female one, because if only men are involved a lot of the rules are different.

If you want to go on a massive crusade encouraging sexual responsibility for all people, you have my support, But that is no reason in of itself to oppose homosexuality. It's PEOPLE, not the homosexuality, that are the problem.

---

"In addition to this, the partners of such unions are generally found to be sexually promiscuous. "

Prove it. That statement appears to be horseshit.

---

"A recent study of Dutch homosexual men found that homosexual unions simply do not last."

That's because they are so opposed and oppressed by culture. Take a study when both options have a level playing field and you have a case. But you don't, because backward thinking people like you oppose giving them a level playing field.

---

"What social benefits do such behaviors offer to a society? "

I don't care. What is right and is wrong has no bearing on its benefit to society. That is Stalinist thinking.

---

"I feel it necessary to now ask you all how such lifestyles can be defined as being "moral"

Because there is no moral difference between it and hetersexuality.

It is plainly immoral to oppose what people do in private that does not affect other people. Even if you contend it is a risk, it is their risk to take.

Stop dictating how people should live their lives if it has no effect on anyone else.

---

"Homosexual behavior strictly involves the pleasing of one's self."

Lie. You cannot even begin to prove such an idiotic statement.

---

"It is not selfish...
It is not untruthful...
It never fails..."

Never fails? You STILL in the nursery, whob? The same one that taught you that sodomy was illegal in the US perhaps?

Yourn first two are probably correct. But... so what? It is just as capable of being true in homosexuals as it is in heterosexuals.

-

Get out and try and experience the world properly, whob. You are still only embarrassing yourself with your backwards and prejudiced ways.

Originally posted by Storm
Younger children usually have an easier time adjusting. They haven' t learned (or shouldn' t have learned) the societal biases against gays and lesbians yet.
8 seems to be a good age to begin to discuss sex in more detail with children, in age-appropriate language.

Nope.

They couldn't have learned the bias yet.

They just naturally know that it is not normal.

In first grade (age 8 is first grade, I believe) she is just learning that flowers pollinate, rain cycles through clouds, and that men and women make children.

She really can't be expected to have bought into the bullshit that the homosexual movement would like her to believe....... that what they do is just as natural as the scientific things she is just starting to learn.

That's why she has a problem with it.

Her natural feelings and instincts tell her that it's wrong. 🙂

Ok, read the first 5 pages and decide to jump over here.

I'm willing to accept that there might be a genetic component. It seems that I remember reading an article about a genetics experiment in which they forced a mutation in a certain gene of a fruitfly (most genetics experiments are done with either bacteria or fruitflies). The mutant strain exhibited homosexual (actually if I remember right it was more like bisexual) tendencies. The wildtype remained "straight"

So yeah, there might be a genetic component. Remember though that there is also thought to be a genetic component to alcoholism, and we don't just say let the alcoholics alone, do we? Human beings have the ability to overcome their programming. So the real question is just if it's right or not. If it's not wrong. then it's none of my business. If, however, there is a God and he's outlawed it. Then some people are gonna be in a lot of trouble in the afterlife.

-edit-

So here's my question to anyone who's been reading this since the beginning: Did I add anything new? Just curious, especially if the fruitfly thing had already been mentioned.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Nope.

They couldn't have learned the bias yet.

They just naturally know that it is not normal.

In first grade (age 8 is first grade, I believe) she is just learning that flowers pollinate, rain cycles through clouds, and that men and women make children.

She really can't be expected to have bought into the bullshit that the homosexual movement would like her to believe....... that what they do is just as natural as the scientific things she is just starting to learn.

That's why she has a problem with it.

Her natural feelings and instincts tell her that it's wrong. 🙂

It's odd that one considers feelings natural, but not emotions.

your hypocrisy is revealed again and again.

Find a new god, because the one you bend knee to now is hardly representative of your feelings....

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Nope.

They couldn't have learned the bias yet.

They just naturally know that it is not normal.

In first grade (age 8 is first grade, I believe) she is just learning that flowers pollinate, rain cycles through clouds, and that men and women make children.

She really can't be expected to have bought into the bullshit that the homosexual movement would like her to believe....... that what they do is just as natural as the scientific things she is just starting to learn.

That's why she has a problem with it.

Her natural feelings and instincts tell her that it's wrong. 🙂

yes thats how she see it . it has bothered her for a while. she isnt like any normal 8 year old as she is eplieptic and her learning side of the brain has been affected by fits, and does'nt understand things very easily. takes a while for her to take things in.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Nope.

They couldn't have learned the bias yet.

They just naturally know that it is not normal.

In first grade (age 8 is first grade, I believe) she is just learning that flowers pollinate, rain cycles through clouds, and that men and women make children.

She really can't be expected to have bought into the bullshit that the homosexual movement would like her to believe....... that what they do is just as natural as the scientific things she is just starting to learn.

That's why she has a problem with it.

Her natural feealings and instincts tell her that it's wrong. 🙂

sorry i msg on darth_midal it came from me em'j we live together !!!!

Originally posted by Em'J
i was married to him 4 13 years and had no clue!!! we did split up b4 he told me he was gay. i think its because her mum and dad were together and thats all she knew, a man and a woman, and beings she is only 8 does'nt know any different . not done about sexuality yet at school didn't even know what the word gay ment until her dad had to explain it to her. i have got over the shock now i just wants whats best for her and hate seeing her crying and getting upset over it .

🤨 How are you married to someone for 13 years and not eventually learn that they're gay? He didn't leave any clues? Or nothing that you picked up on over the years?