Homosexuality: Chosen or Genetic?

Started by Adam_PoE324 pages
Originally posted by Bardock42
Although chances are that most parents will (as it stands now) would probably choose straight children. For whatever reason ever.

Some people have suggested developing a technology to screen children for the genetic condition of Dwarfism while in the womb.

Purportedly, to terminate the pregnancy if the child is identified as having Dwarfism.

In response to this, there is a movement among Dwarfs to use this technology to produce only children who are Dwarfs.

Similarly, homosexuals may choose to produce only children who are homosexual.

Considering that a majority of homosexuals reproduce through artificial means as compared to a minority of heterosexuals that reproduce through artificial means, elimminating homosexual orientation seems unlikely.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Spectacularly missing the point of what I was saying, all that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
If you think Religious types trying to 'cure' homosexuals is bad... you don't want to think abut what will happen when it would become possible to genetically set sexual orientation.

And at this point, if all that has happened with the gay movement is that it has said it has the right to exist purely because there is no choice in the matter, and gotten others to accept it for that reason... then there is doom ahead, because genetic engineering will remove that inevitability, and religious types will say "But don't you see? We don't HAVE to put up with it any more? Isn't that great for everyone? All these poor people that has no choice before can now live normal lives like everyone else!"

Girl: You are going to choose to be Heterosexual?
Meg: I thought being gay was not a choice.
Girl: Well, not for guys.

Family Guy is just too funny

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Similarly, homosexuals may choose to produce only children who are homosexual.

What if there was a test that could tell if an unborn baby would be born a homosexual? How many parents would abort that child because they don't want a homosexual as their child? 😕

The parents would be in quite the conundrum as many people against homosexuality are same people who are against abortion.

since few prolife people seem to care about what happens to kids after their born based on the "conservative agenda", i don't think they'd give two shits about aborting a homosexual child or commiting infanticide after it's born.

Originally posted by Makedde
What if there was a test that could tell if an unborn baby would be born a homosexual? How many parents would abort that child because they don't want a homosexual as their child? 😕

How South Dakota of you.

Originally posted by Makedde
What if there was a test that could tell if an unborn baby would be born a homosexual? How many parents would abort that child because they don't want a homosexual as their child? 😕

Probably a lot. In fact, I'll say most.

there would be a lot of foster kids too, and it's very conveniant considering the FDA recently ruled that it was ok to test pesticides on wards of the state and juvenile correctional inmates.

Here's an excellent post that I believe you all should read.

http://www.e-skojec.com/oldarchives/000153.html

February 18, 2004

Why Homosexuality is Wrong - A Natural Argument

I came across a discussion wherein someone wanted a non-religious, rational argument for why homosexuality is wrong.

I did my best to answer the call, and this is what I came up with:

The rational argument you are looking for is the argument from nature - though rarely do people agree on what is "natural" and what is not.

To use an objective measure I stopped by dictionary.com. The most appropriate definition in the context of this discussion was the third one listed for "nature":

Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

And nature? Two possibilities there; I'll list them both:

The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.

The processes and functions of the body.

So we see nature as something that adheres to order - there are "laws" of nature. We see that it involves biological processes. We see that for something to be natural, it is seen to follow a certain course. This means that any natural act would be something that is not only biologically proper to the acting being but also follows a course from beginning to end.

Trees grow toward light because they need it to accomplish photosynthesis, not because they choose to. They are acting toward the natural end of generating food. Animals are more adaptive, and have learned behaviors, and though they act according to nature, they also follow impulses with a degree of volition that plants do not have. Human beings, on the other hand, have complete volition. Though they act in accordance with the laws of nature that govern them, they have control over their impulses. We can subject our impulses and control our nature according to our intellect and will. As nature goes, we are at the pinnacle, yet we do not have the ability to circumvent it.

Many try to view the homosexual question in overly simplistic terms. They see certain homosexual behaviors in the animal kingdom, and so try to justify analagous human behavior as "natural". This is a foolish course for two reasons.

First, because what is "natural" for animals is not always "natural" for humans, and second, because animals act on ungoverned impulses that do not always follow a natural course. Monkeys throw feces. Dogs eat their own vomit. Some animals cannibalize their young. Does this mean that we should imitate this behavior?

In the question of nature, what is truly "natural" is an action that is ordered to the accomplishment of an end that is biologically necessary. This is an important distinction. "Natural" acts always serve biological self-preservation in some direct or indirect sense.

The most common natural act is eating. We eat to nourish our bodies so that they can grow and we can continue to live. We are prompted to eat by a sensation, an urge, that tells us "you need food". As humans, we can ignore that urge (unlike animals), though if we ignore it long enough, we will die. The natural end of eating is nourishment - a necessity for our own preservation.

Sex is another appetite that is naturally geared toward self-preservation. The reproductive urge is biologically explainable only as a means by which a species is maintained through offspring. The elements of attraction, courting rituals, sexual pleasure, etc., are all tangental to the purpose of the sexual act. They are means by reproduction is accomplished, not the end in itself. Animals aren't capable of knowing this. They follow an impulse, and don't logically conclude that sex will lead to babies. They want to satisfy a release of hormones in an act that gives them pleasure. (Animals view pleasure as the object of sexual activity - something that should make us realize that when we treat sex as only about pleasure, we too are being animalistic.) This means that when an animal exhibits homosexual, or inter-species sexual behavior, they are following a conditioned behavioral response that generates pleasure. (I have personally seen a large black labrador try to mate with a small (male) cat. Not only are the odds high that this would have been physically impossible, but it's also likely that it wasn't because of some strange inter-special homosexual relationship. The cat was clearly put out by the whole affair.) That does not mean that the sexual impulse in animals isn't there to facilitate reproduction. That's what the impulse is for.

Human beings, on the other hand, do know this. We are scientifically aware that the male and female sex organs are physically compatible. We know that normal attraction - I can use the term "normal" because it is an established fact that over 90% of the population is heterosexual - when manifested in (vaginal) sexual intercourse between a man and a woman leads, naturally speaking, to conception and childbearing. The parameters for normal sexual acts - according to nature - exist within the order that underlies reproduction. Regardless of how one might feel, this is the unquestionable biological reason for sex.

As humans, however, we can sublimate sex. We can't change it's natural end - though many try - but we can make sex something more than an animalistic pursuit of pleasure. It can be about love and respect and generosity and openness to life. We can consciously choose those things. Too often, we don't.

This is why there are pedophiles in the world. This is why people have sex with animals. This is why men rape women. Though the pleasure that is associated with sex is a legitimate good, when sex is reduced to primarily the pursuit of that pleasure, the "natural" result is a kind of slavery to desire. When pleasure is made to be the purpose of sex, rather than a natural means to promote procreation, pleasure becomes an end to be reached by whatever means necessary. This changes the context of what sex is, and opens it to other, disturbing possibilities. The fact is, we know that the acts I mentioned above are unnatural, no matter how "natural" the urges and desires feel to those who act them out. Yet the same is true for homosexuality.

Homosexuality serves no natural purpose, so to call it a "natural" orientation is a false use of the language. It is not procreative, and does nothing to promote the generation of children. It is sexual activity that is concerned only with pleasure, and therefore disordered - as it is not ordered to the natural sexual purpose of procreation.

I previously mentioned that the natural end of eating is nourishment. What about those poor souls that suffer from Bulemia? They eat enormous amounts of food, so that they may experience the pleasure of eating, only to purge all of it from their bodies, rendering nourishment impossible. They suffer from a disorder. Why do we call it a disorder? Because eating is ordered to nourishment. They have changed the end of eating from nourishment to pleasure, and have thus perverted the act of eating into something entirely other than what it is intended for. Should they have the right to damage their bodies that way? Could anyone reasonably argue that what they are doing is natural?

I have no more idea why the homosexual person is attracted to someone of the same sex than I understand why the Bulemic throws up all of their food. In each case, there are different reasons, some genetically predisposed, some environmentally formed, but no reason makes a perverse desire natural. Alcoholism is a genetic disorder that generates an inordinant desire for alcohol consumption. But just because it's genetic does that mean it's natural? Is alcoholism an "acceptable lifestyle", even if the alcoholic hurts no one but himself?

The State has a legitimate interest in regulating unnatural acts. If it did not, it could not make laws against self-inflicted injuries or violent acts. Those suffering from mental illnesses could not be compelled to undergo treatment. Unnatural acts pose a danger to the order of society, because they violate the order and law of nature, which is the foundation for judicial law and societal structure. Further, the State has an interest in preserving the institution of marriage and traditional families. Families are the building blocks of society. They are the centers for the reproduction and education of children, who will some day become full participants in society. For society not to protect and promote marriage and family would be destructive to the society as a whole.

cont...

Homosexual couples do not have a "right" to marriage. They do not have a "right" to marriage benefits. If two gay men can have marrital benefits, why shouldn't two guys who are friends from college and have decided to room together as they enter the professional world get them as well? What is the differentiating factor between them and the gay couple? Because one couple has sex and the other doesn't? Why should that gain a person any kind of special status?

That's the fundamental problem with the gay marriage issue. It's not about sex - it's about family. Gay couples, however, can't see that, because they have a flawed understanding of sexuality. Sex for them is about pleasure. It's not about responsibility and generosity in the way that marrital sex is. Heterosexual Marrital sex that is open to children is a deeper, more open, more selfless love. Any sexual activity that is intentionally sterile is always less than that.

There are other things about homosexual sex, on a natural level, that are inferior to heterosexual sex. The very fact that homosexual sex revolves entirely around at least one partner engaged in a primarily non-genital act deprives those couples from the mutual genital sexual communication that heterosexual couples alone can participate in. Homosexual sex isn't sex at all - it's mutual masturbation. No matter how much one plays with the language, it can never be more than that. It is infertile. It, quite frankly, uses orifices that are not intended (by their nature) for sexual contact - which is why anal sex is unnatural even for hetero couples. Homosexual sex, insofar as it is a pursuit of only the pleasure of sex without the fecundity of sex, is selfish, just like solitary masturbation is.

No matter how many times a homosexual person says they love their partner - which they probably do - the sexual expression of that love is not love, but perversion. If homosexual sex is ok, then any other sexual desire or activity must be OK too.

Posted by steve at February 18, 2004 01:50 PM

wow, other people's opinions ROCK 🤘

shall we all copy and paste the opinions of others? then we can debate vicariously through them. this could be fun 😱

😐

Saying that Humans have to condition their behaviour by what is 'natural' is not a rational argument.

"What is the differentiating factor between them and the gay couple?"

The gay couple love each other and have made a commitment as binding and strong as a marriage. Duh.

Whob, several things. First, you can't get anyone on this site to agree with your uneducated point of view, so you have resorted to quoting people on other sites. I would like to invite you to post exclusivly on that site.

Second, this guy managed to fully mirror your perspective on the topic WITHOUT mentioning the anus. Score one for that guy.

Third, he makes the same mistake that you do. He equates homosexuality with sex alone.

Lastly, as a matter of rebuttal, I would invite you to reread all your own posts as well as those that follow them. This is the same argument you have made since you entered this thread, so this perspective has been refutted countless times.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Whob, several things. First, you can't get anyone on this site to agree with your uneducated point of view, so you have resorted to quoting people on other sites. I would like to invite you to post exclusivly on that site.

Second, this guy managed to fully mirror your perspective on the topic WITHOUT mentioning the anus. Score one for that guy.

Third, he makes the same mistake that you do. He equates homosexuality with sex alone.

Lastly, as a matter of rebuttal, I would invite you to reread all your own posts as well as those that follow them. This is the same argument you have made since you entered this thread, so this perspective has been refutted countless times.

First, I agree with him.

Second, yes, score one for that guy.

Third, he makes the POINT that homosexual sex is purely for pleasure, and is never genital to genital sexual communication, (for men) and is, at best, mutual masturbation (for women and men).

The act of sex is very much a part of whether or not the activity is natural. (or not)

Lastly, in his posts and mine, the point has been made that homosexual sex is not biologicaly natural, is not compatible with natural selection (something that every person arguing for it believes in), and is not a genetic mutation. (genetically pre-disposed, i.e.... at greater risk of influence by environmental factors, possibly).

Those points are always ignored/glossed over with:

Well, dogs and frogs have sex with each other, monkeys fling shit around, etc,.....

Which frankly, are just as pathetic as Whob's homophobia.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
First, I agree with him.

Thank you for proving my point.

I would like to pose a question that perhaps has been over-looked:

Do the majority of homosexuals believe their sexual-orientation is genetic or through choice?

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I would like to pose a question that perhaps has been over-looked:

Do the majority of homosexuals believe their sexual-orientation is genetic or through choice?

First off, I think that your question is a valid one in some respects. When one wishes to resolve a dispute the best course of action is to go to the source of that dispute.

However, that is a loaded question. I know many homosexuals and one of the few things I seem to be able to garner is a consensus on is why they are homosexual. Also, you are asking that question on a public forum where you will only get responses from the usual suspects. That's to say that you will only get responses from the few individuals that are willing to openly say they are homosexual. And the bad part of that is that there are many more homosexuals on this site than responses reflect. I know this for a fact. (I'd also like to take this opprotunity to acknowledge Makadde, who is the only openly lesbian member of the community. Lesbians are often over looked as truely equal members of the homosexual community.) From where does this dishonesty and inability to be real originate? Social stigma.

To answer the question, no. No, I never decided to be gay.

I have been out of town for the weekend, and when I got home my room mate had recorded a segment from this weeks episode of Sixty Minutes. The report raises many of the very same topics this thread has addressed. It seems to represent almost every opinion in regards to homosexuality, with the exception of the opinion that it is the practice of a sick mind. (Sorry Whob, no oscar nod for you and your kind.) The segment talks of homosexuality in a variety of aspects, from genetic to hormone to environment....yet, it never once says that any of them chose to be gay. It addressed twins. It addressed siblings and parents. It also addressed DNA and the variety of studies that have been represented by posts from Draco and Adam_PoE. But, the most interesting aspect was that it never once applied some illogical guilt on the person out of the assumption that they chose to be attracted to members of the same sex.

Some indisputable evidence? There are few studies that represent the absolute truth. Humanity doesn't work that way. But there are some facts that I think few people have stopped to consider.

Charles Robert Darwin (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882)

Dr. Alfred Charles Kinsey (June 23, 1894 – August 25, 1956)

Jesus Christ (approx. -7-0 B.C. + 33years)

etc.

Subscribe to evolution and science all you like...or dislike. But in the whole of 2000 years, I would hope that humanity has learned something. Perhaps I give the inspired product of a divine creator a little more credit than others do, but I think humanity is capable of much more than living in the last millenium!

Ignore the research, ingnore the scientific studies, ignore common sense. However, there is a reality to deal with in regards to homosexuals. We've been here for as long as heterosexuals and we will be a factor for the rest of human existance. Equate that to criminality all you like. It is a matter of treating another human being like they are disposable, irrelevant and inferior. If that's what you get out of the teachings of Christ, then you weren't paying attention to what he said.

Remove the bible from the equation and remove the need to interfere in the life of another capable, sentient, innocent, suffering human being and there is no basis for the social segregation, distrust, misunderstanding, hatred and political deprivation of homosexuals.

And don't misunderstand. I'm not saying Sixty Minutes is a bastion of absolute answers. I'm simply addressing the reality of the situation.

from 60 minutes: for every brother you have, your chance of being gay increases by 30% 😆

I thought they said by 1/3. But, that's not the point. I only have one older brother and no other siblings. If anything, that illuatrates how inconsistant the research they were spotlighting can be.

My point goes far beyond Sixty Minutes and Andy Rooney