Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Provide examples of multifactorial traits? Height for one. What term does one use to describe the outcomes of these if not phenotype. It's been a while since I've done anything genetics based.
Originally posted by Alliance
Nevermind...its late and I'm using a strict defenition. I'll accept your criticism.
The functional defintion is much broader that what I frequently use. I work sub-cellular.
Originally posted by Oncewhite
what is this obession with homosexuality? if that is your thing, ok...but i noticed someone wants this subject in constant view, why?
If society didn't treat homosexuality as a disease or a self imposed evil, then no one would be "obsessing" over it. You can blame heterosexuals, especially the more conservative ones for homosexuality being in your face.
if anyone is an oponent, they get burned, so why would anyone want to argue, either way, "you", the ones who are hot or flaming for it, are the ones who will bully people into just keeping their mouths shut, but never changes the heart, blacks use the same tactic, it doesn't change a racist heart or mind, just simply don't talk as much around them or are censured.
i've seen how people are ridiculed for debating about race or homosexuality, so yeah, folks will just ignore it, not really tell what they really feel, or just play it as a game...but true discussion, i think most already see how "opponets' are treated.
you will never get the truth out of most, and the wise ones of any issue, keep their mouths shut but teach their children otherwise...so, keep bullying people.
Originally posted by AllianceNot necessarily, religion is considered a choice (even though often it's a 'choice' ingrained by upbringing) but if one were to treat people differently due to their religion or restrict their rights, it would still be discriminatory. 😬
Becuase the question of discriminaition comes down to whether sexuality is biologically determined or not.
Originally posted by Regret
I would assume I was genetically predisposed to heterosexuality, which was then reinforced through sexual and romantic pleasure in the presence of females, and orgasm, which is orientation neutral, was a strong reinforcer.
Originally posted by Robtard
If society didn't treat homosexuality as a disease or a self imposed evil, then no one would be "obsessing" over it. You can blame heterosexuals, especially the more conservative ones for homosexuality being in your face.
then it sounds to me as if you and the like are at war.
don't worry, people already know that there are those who pretend to be priest and get in the church to defame it on purpose, just because they know it will tarnish the name of the church or God before it tarnishes the name of the folks in office who are intrusted to children.
the war is fought in entertainment, church, even in sports now, and don't forget science.
i really do not believe you really want the answer to the question, you are at war, so any oponent will be heckled, ill willed or bullied...remember, i am in a black shell, i know the game.
Originally posted by Oncewhite
if anyone is an oponent, they get burned, so why would anyone want to argue, either way, "you", the ones who are hot or flaming for it, are the ones who will bully people into just keeping their mouths shut, but never changes the heart, blacks use the same tactic, it doesn't change a racist heart or mind, just simply don't talk as much around them or are censured.i've seen how people are ridiculed for debating about race or homosexuality, so yeah, folks will just ignore it, not really tell what they really feel, or just play it as a game...but true discussion, i think most already see how "opponets' are treated.
you will never get the truth out of most, and the wise ones of any issue, keep their mouths shut but teach their children otherwise...so, keep bullying people.
THats because, assuming I'm interpreting your position correctly, all you do is destroy society. People who challenge the strong getnetic nature of homosexualty are against practically all evidence.
Just because you believe an a bigoted position that against fact does not mean we have to accept it.
Just go ahead and teach your children, just like racists used to and still do. Hopefully, the wonderful minds of children will teach you a thing or too.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Not necessarily, religion is considered a choice (even though often it's a 'choice' ingrained by upbringing) but if one were to treat people differently due to their religion or restrict their rights, it would still be discriminatory. 😬
I'm speaking legally. Homosexuals are legally lesser people in most states.
Originally posted by Nellinator
However, don't forget that gender roles can an important affect on one's self identity and attractions as well. Homosexuality seems to have genetic and hormonal predisposition that can be confirmed or broken through gender roles and conditioning as you mentioned.
Originally posted by Oncewhite
then it sounds to me as if you and the like are at war.
don't worry, people already know that there are those who pretend to be priest and get in the church to defame it on purpose, just because they know it will tarnish the name of the church or God before it tarnishes the name of the folks in office who are intrusted to children.
Cut your bullcr*p. Many gay flee to the church because they are taught by myopic bigots that prayer can "fix" them. They try to achieve the highest level of service to god, hoping that it will make them straight. Then the churches which they dedicate so much of their time leave them out in the cold. Its pathetic really.
A lot of historical problems could have been solved if the church keept its head out of government and out of peoples bedrooms.
Originally posted by Nellinator
However, don't forget that gender roles can an important affect on one's self identity and attractions as well. Homosexuality seems to have genetic and hormonal predisposition that can be confirmed or broken through gender roles and conditioning as you mentioned.
Name one example that supports your claim. Just one valid example....
Gender roles are human constructs and nothing more. Again, you play into the fairy tale, that all Gay men (or most of them) are gay, because they weren't taught to be "men"
Masculinity and Femininity do NOT exist in nature...only in human society, and have nothing to do with actual sexuality. They are only learned behaviors, while sexuality is far deeper than that.
Originally posted by Nellinator
However, don't forget that gender roles can an important affect on one's self identity and attractions as well.
[emphasis added]
how about we do forget it since you just tried nonchalantly to declare a debated theory (the topic no less) as commonly accepted fact
people need to stop doing this. its quite pathetic.
PVS, he won't face that....it makes it much easier for him to label Homosexuality as sinful, if the factor of choice is somehow involved. Same for Regret. To realize that Homosexuality is NOT a choice, is to also realize that it could not possibly be a sin...
And to come to that conclusion would also render the Bible and Christianity itself, flawed....
Which would force them to realize that they MAY be wrong about life, and that would basically cause them something called doubt, a dreaded thing they cannot handle, but something people like you and me have learned to adapt to.
Originally posted by PVS
oh, ok then
I mean I am open to the possibility that perhaps some homosexual men and women have chosen a series of actions which may have lead them to shape their own sexuality, but I am not open to the possibility that any person flat out decided, "you know what ? I wanna be Gay...see what it's like"
I am 100% convinced that you cannot choose your desires....you can only force yourself to resist acting on your desires.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Okay, so you didn't say that homosexuality is a learned behavior but that you are immune from learning it, considering your age?
Learning takes time, nobody is immune. Given the type of issue sexuality is, it takes a long period to learn, and should take even longer to learn a change in such orientation, if such is really even possible. The APA believes that sexual orientation cannot be changed. This stance of the APA supports my stance as well.
APAEven though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.
Originally posted by Capt_FantasticLearning is a change in behavior due to experience. Teaching is not necessary for learning to occur, experience is. If it were possible to study every event and experience in a person's life, and then have that person present homosexual in orientation, perhaps I would be capable of citing what experiences and events shaped it. I also may be unable to and would then conclude it was probable that genetic factors determined it.
And if you are so well qualified to address the subject, then you better than any of us should be able to cite us a few examples of how it's learned. And if it's learned, then it has to be taught somehow.
Originally posted by Capt_FantasticI have not lied once. You are the epitome of insulting with this post. Study Behavior Analysis, as a whole, we will respond similar to the manner that I have responded on this subject.
I could care less why you post. The fact remains, you continue to post your opinion. An opinion that, cherry-picked as it is from the published information from all your sources, is considered an invalid opinion by the very source to which you refer. If you are, convieniently and quite suddenly, a member of these groups then you should know better than the rest of us how invalid is your own opinion.There are quite a few different levels of membership for the APA. Are you absolutely certain you know how the organization works?
And what's worse, is that you have already stated in this thread that you have no intention of looking at the subject from a different perspective. You have started posting during the 11th hour in this thread so far, and have clearly stated that you don't NEED to read through it. That's not quite the open-minded nature of someone who considers themselves so well read on every subject they address, much less a member of the APA.
Basically, you've lied about your credentials. You've been less than forth-coming about WHY you're so rooted in your opinion and unwilling to be more open-minded about the subject. And you've been posting your opinion as fact and then backed it up with quotes from reputable sources that you've edited to suit your argument.
I did not cherry-pick the research leading to my opinion, it is based in the fundamental principles of behavior analysis and in the statement provided by the APA. My stance is that sexual orientation is learned, but that genetics play a significant role in the probability of a given orientation presenting. This stance is completely in line with the APA statement I provided. I do not need to research it further as currently the literature results in the APA's statement, as new literature is presented I will perhaps alter my stance, but a number of posts on a forum such as this will probably not change it, and reading through the posts here would most likely be a waste of time given the information presented between 242 and 252, and the ratio of valid versus worthless posts as to information provided. I am just as "rooted in my opinion and unwilling to be more open-minded about the subject" as you yourself have been.
I am rooted in my stance because environment and cognition do play a role in determining sexual orientation, at least given the APA's statement. Given this, sexuality is learned, if it were not then environment and cognition would not play a role and the sole factor would be genetics. If environment and cognition play a role it necessitates that, given a different environment, a different outcome could have been achieved. If this is the case, and it must be for environment and cognition to have an impact, then orientation is learned through environmental and cognitive experience.
As to you not caring about "why I post":
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
But you keep repeating yourself. And you can't honestly think that everything you're saying hasn't been addressed and put to rest in the last 200 pages. You're not that clever. Which means that your only real purpose in babbling is to irritate and insult people.
I explained why because you attacked my reasons for posting here.
Here are some questions for you:
Why can't sexual orientation be learned? Why are you so angst ridden that you are unwilling to admit the possibility? Is homosexuality so horrid that the only reason it occurs is because it was genetically dictated?
You seem to want the subject to be genetically decided, why is that?
I'm sorry, but my stance has nothing to do with religion or my personal views on the morality of homosexuality, my stance is based in the belief that humans are capable of defining themselves, that learning is what we do, that we are capable of overcoming genetic obstacles. If a heterosexual was to claim that the only reason they were heterosexual was due to his genetics I would argue in the exact same manner that he was full of crap and that sexual orientation was a learned thing, that given differing environmental and cognitive experience he could have been a homosexual.
Now, in regards to statements that I think homosexuality is chosen, stating that sexual orientation is learned is not stating that it is chosen. Choices may lead to an orientation as they impact the environment one will experience, and so choices may impact the determination of orientation, but one does not say to oneself, "I think I'll be [insert orientation here]", such is impossible. Once again, a gross oversimplification of my statements.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"you know what ? I wanna be Gay...see what it's like"
i think enough personal testimonies and common sense thwart that theory anyhow...you know, that every gay person just one day says "hmmm, i think i'll be gay". however you cannot deny the possibility that it can be conditioning, simply because its a possibility, as well as the possibility that its genetic.
if people would just accept and respect possibilities as well as the ultimate uncertainty of their supportive evidence then this thread would only be like 1/10 of what it is now.
Originally posted by NellinatorAgreed
However, don't forget that gender roles can an important affect on one's self identity and attractions as well. Homosexuality seems to have genetic and hormonal predisposition that can be confirmed or broken through gender roles and conditioning as you mentioned.