Originally posted by Regret
Learning takes time, nobody is immune.
Except you, apparently.
Originally posted by Regret
Learning is a change in behavior due to experience. Teaching is not necessary for learning to occur, experience is.
Humm...so you might say the experience "taught" you something. So, if you believe that homosexuality is "learned", then what experiences *taught* me to be gay? Maybe you'll go the Sithsabre route and accuse my father of molesting me in my crib when I was a baby. Or maybe my mother popped gay porn into the VCR to keep me occupied as a child. Maybe my brother used to make me jerk him off at night. Maybe my grandparents made me dress up as a little girl because they secretly wanted a grand daughter. What kind of experience falls into the realm of influencing someones sexuality? You have all teh answers, why can't you have one to this one?
Originally posted by Regret
I have not lied once. You are the epitome of insulting with this post.
Originally posted by Regret
I am just as "rooted in my opinion and unwilling to be more open-minded about the subject" as you yourself have been.
Not at all. You'd know that if you felt the need to be well informed enough to read the thread. But, that is apparently beneath you.
Originally posted by Regret
I am rooted in my stance because
Originally posted by Regret
homosexuality was just one of many sins.
Two different topics in two different forums. Same person arguing.
Originally posted by RegretI've never attacked your reason for posting here. It doesn't matter to me why you post here. What matters to me is what you say here. And it's not much fun having to explain and justify yourself to someone else, is it? Try being a ****** and having 60 percent of your own country expect you to explain and justify yourself.
I explained why because you attacked my reasons for posting here.
Originally posted by RegretI've never thought it was "horrid". But I know some people who do. (by the way, it's you) See, you want me to say that it has to be genetic to validate it's existence to everyone else in the world. I know it's not learned, personally.
Is homosexuality so horrid that the only reason it occurs is because it was genetically dictated?
Originally posted by RegretI don't WANT, I've had 27 years to think about it and research it. I've also had 250+ pages to explain why I've reached that conclusion.
You seem to want the subject to be genetically decided, why is that?
Originally posted by Regret
I'm sorry, but my stance has nothing to do with religion or my personal views on the morality of homosexuality
The second half of this sentence contradicts the first half of this sentence.
Originally posted by Regret
Now, in regards to statements that I think homosexuality is chosen, stating that sexual orientation is learned is not stating that it is chosen. Choices may lead to an orientation as they impact the environment one will experience, and so choices may impact the determination of orientation, but one does not say to oneself, "I think I'll be [insert orientation here]", such is impossible. Once again, a gross oversimplification of my statements.
Think about that. If you want to suddenly get logical, then you have to understand what you're saying. If sexuality was learned through experience, then why would a child take away from that experience what he or she did, while another child in the school bus seat next to him/her did not? It wasn't explained to one child in one way and another way to the other.
If sexuality is learned over a long period of time, then how could I have known I was gay when I was three? It's not a matter of knowing that I was gay, but knowing that something was different from the other kids. So, I'll give you the credit due you for the fact that kids figure out they're gay by realizing why they've reacted differently to a situation than the other kids. But it is not learned.
The realization of one being Gay and/or Bisexual, does not "officially"make them Gay or Bisexual.
I used to think I was straight....I honestly beleived that masturbating over the thought of naked guys was something that a lot of straight guys did.....it took me a while to realize, "straight guys don't do that"
Just because I realized later that I wasn't straight, didn't mean I was straight before that. Regret your earlier argument that sexual orientation becomes official at realization of it, is entirely flawed.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Name one example that supports your claim. Just one valid example....Gender roles are human constructs and nothing more. Again, you play into the fairy tale, that all Gay men (or most of them) are gay, because they weren't taught to be "men"
Masculinity and Femininity do NOT exist in nature...only in human society, and have nothing to do with actual sexuality. They are only learned behaviors, while sexuality is far deeper than that.
I do acknowledge what you are saying to be true, but the cause of homosexuality is not the same in all cases (hence the word can). I do recognize that many homosexual males are very masculine and recognize that many heterosexual males can be effeminate.
You could read something like the work of Clingman and Fowler to maybe grasp what I am saying about gender roles and its relation to homosexuality.
All I said in my post was that gender roles MAY have a affect on the development of homosexuality. This much is true. I should have expected people to blow it out of proportion and assume that I meant the worst because they make biased assumptions about my position, however, the fact is that they have no clue and should stop making assumptions, especially those that claim to base everything on empirical data.
Well, looking at what you wrote...
Originally posted by Nellinator
However, don't forget that gender roles can an important affect on one's self identity and attractions as well. Homosexuality seems to have genetic and hormonal predisposition that can be confirmed or broken through gender roles and conditioning as you mentioned.
...you seem to not only be up-playing gender role significance, but you make no mention of "in some cases"
"in some cases itself" can apply to anything and is not a scientific judgement.
I don't know how much I trust your paper. If I find time to read it I will, but I find most research on homosexuality skeptical, especially if its from 30 years ago.
I thought that can would hopefully convey my meaning of some instances.
Its actually not that good of a paper and I never actually read very much of it, and it is old, but it does discuss gender roles and homosexuality so I thought it might interest Urizen. My goal is more to open his mind to possiblities of conditioning than to prove it is conditioned because it is inconclusive and therefore it cannot be proved.
I'm simply stating that the way that you stated it was, in my opinon, very definative.
My personal opinon is that gender roles don't have such a significant factor as Clingman and Fowler suggest in thier abstract.
However, it is important to remeber that humans are conscious and that SELF-ASCRIBED gender roles could easily have a significant impact on personality development, wich may have correlation (note NOT causation) with sexuality.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I thought that can would hopefully convey my meaning of some instances.Its actually not that good of a paper and I never actually read very much of it, and it is old, but it does discuss gender roles and homosexuality so I thought it might interest Urizen. My goal is more to open his mind to possiblities of conditioning than to prove it is conditioned because it is inconclusive and therefore it cannot be proved.
One might ask the same measure of open-mindedness from you. As it is, you are biased by your religious views. Which is why you want to "enlighten" anyone to the idea that it is a learned behavior. It makes it easier not to blame your god if it exists in a wholly divine-inspired reality. -no pun intended.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
One might ask the same measure of open-mindedness from you. As it is, you are biased by your religious views. Which is why you want to "enlighten" anyone to the idea that it is a learned behavior. It makes it easier not to blame your god if it exists in a wholly divine-inspired reality. -no pun intended.
On another note I reread the link Adam gave concerning the genetic origin of homosexuality and read the classical four gene markers at position Xq28 of the X chromosome. This is outdated and false information. More recent studies have shown this.
Male Homosexuality: Absence of Linkage to Microsatellite Markers at Xq28., By: Rice, George, Anderson, Carol, Risch, Neil, Ebers, George, Science, 00368075, 04/23/99, Vol. 284, Issue 5414