Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The terms chose and programmed imply an intelligent agent, i.e. if there is not an intelligence behind natural processes, then who is doing the choosing and the programming?
You are thinking way too literal about it. Natural selection "chooses" what species survives and the specific traits about that species that are key to their present and future survival...this all point back to SEXUAL reproduction.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You are thinking way too literal about it. Natural selection "chooses" what species survives and the specific traits about that species that are key to their present and future survival...this all point back to SEXUAL reproduction.
This only indicates that the urge to copulate is biologically-driven; reproduction is incidental to the desire to perform the sex act.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This only indicates that the urge to copulate is biologically-driven; reproduction is incidental to the desire to perform the sex act.
(How come we are the only ones talking about the thread?)
The urge to copulate is programmed into the species via their genetics. The copulation is for reproduction of the species. Therefore, sexual species are genetically programmed to reproduce via copulation. This is the whole point of "chosen or genetic" because the "copulation" urges are still there in a homosexual but why does a homosexual chose copulation that does not further the species? Some think it is chosen...in direct defiance of what they were programmed to do and others think it is genetic meaning they were programmed to be homosexual...a malfunction of in their genetics that causes same sex attraction.
I feel that it is one or the other or both and in the end, the individual has a choice what to choose. (In other words, a hetero born can become homo via choice and vice versa...back to the environment thing that Bardock and I were speaking of.)
I might have missed it in this huge thread...but what is your stance on this?
Originally posted by dadudemon
The urge to copulate is programmed into the species via their genetics.
The urge to copulate is biologically-driven. It is arguable whether or not it is genetic.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The copulation is for reproduction of the species.
Sometimes copulation results in reproduction, but many times it does not. It is arguable whether behaviors are purposed.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Therefore, sexual species are genetically programmed to reproduce via copulation.
Two premises, the truth value of which cannot be determined, do not prove the truth value of the conclusion = unsound argument.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I feel that it is one or the other or both and in the end, the individual has a choice what to choose. (In other words, a hetero born can become homo via choice and vice versa...back to the environment thing that Bardock and I were speaking of.)
By all means, choose to respond to male pheromones, or to become sexually aroused by a man.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I might have missed it in this huge thread...but what is your stance on this?
See THIS post.
Originally posted by Faith27
Well people I think they got influenced by their society and some of them are genetically...means since born.
And what's the difference between a homosexual that is the product of his society and a homosexual that is the product of his genetics? How can you tell the difference?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The urge to copulate is biologically-driven. It is arguable whether or not it is genetic.
I see a contradiction: how can reproduction be biologically driven but not be genetic?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Sometimes copulation results in reproduction, but many times it does not. It is arguable whether behaviors are purposed.
Since this whole discussion is largely opinion, everything is arguable. You have posted studies that show how homosexuality is not chosen and I have shown studies that show how there are many different characteristics that humans are programmed to be attracted to in heterosexual interactions...but have I actual shown how homosexuality can be chosen or have I posted anything that shows how homosexuality can be chosen? Not really. I have duscussed choosing environment and how environment can lead one to be homosexual or heterosexual. That is point cannot be proven because one could always make the assessment that they were genetically predisposed to that choice from the beginning.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Two premises, the truth value of which cannot be determined, do not prove the truth value of the conclusion = unsound argument.
Sexual reproduction is genetic...that is a fact...not an unsound argument. The penis was not designed for the mouth/hands/anus, it was designed for the vagina. The urges are also genetically driven. (Hormones, androgen receptors, etc.) A human cannot determine, at this time, their bodies natural hormone production nor the number of receptors those hormones are designed for.
Sexual reproduction is genetic. You say it is designed for copulation, that was your argument, I pointed out the flaw with that argument but you are saying that my argument about your argument is flawed. Genetics directly determine sexual reproduction and the method that this sexual reproduction is accomplished is copulation. You say that we are designed to just copulate...but why are our bodies designed specifically to reproduce upon copulation. In other words, if we were just designed to copulate and reproduction is a by product, why do the women ovulate and smell better to men at their peak. (That is a fact...men find the smell of a women who is at her peak to be more attractive...we are programmed genetically that way...same thing with women...women find a man's BO less offensive at their peak.) Even as I type this, I can see the wheels turning in your head with you countering that my arguments all point back to copulation...not reproduction. I, of course, will continue to disagree that copulation is just the method of reproduction because sexual species reproduce by more than just one method.
Just to recap because I feel like I am rambling, we were not sexually designed specifically to copulate, we were sexually designed specifically to reproduce...hence the word "sexually". Copulation is the byproduct of that. Who knows, we could have been like sea urchins and just released our "junk" into the water and let it mingle to fertilize...that wouldn't be copulation...but egg and sperm as still involved.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
By all means, choose to respond to male pheromones, or to become sexually aroused by a man.
I see what you did there. How about this...if homosexuality is NEVER chosen, explain this situation to me.
I went to highschool with a dude named Barry. He was very much attracted to females. In the sixth grade, he pitched a tent in gym class because the hot female gym teacher showed him how to stretch with a hands on demo. I caught him bating to some lesbian porn one time in his room. (I shouldn't have opened the door...I should have knocked first. 🙁 ) He was with guy friends, both gay and straight, and none of us judged.
Guess what? Mr. "Pops Boners to Hot Women" is now homosexual. Not bisexual, homosexual. I asked him how he made the change because it was so "hot after the women's"* back in the day. He said that gradually, he stopped becoming attracted to women and he began to like men, more and more. He thought that he was bisexual at first but realized he had no desire for the opposite sex anymore. He told me that his porn addiction sort of diminished his desire for the opposite sex and women don't excite him sexually. (In his words, "a women just doesn't get me off"😉.
How can this man have become gay? Even when he was young and innocent, he showed strong signs of attraction to the opposite sex...boners can't lie. (Although sex is very much a psychological thing...i.e. what gets you off. Is he lying to me? Did something change in his body very drastically that caused him to be gay after 18? What is it? What happened?
I wouldn't call this a 100% chosen situation but it does appear that this attraction originated from his brain. (Because sexual arousal is very much a psychological thing.)
It appears that his body chose heterosexuality and through his decisions, his mind and body chose homosexuality.
Have you ever known someone who was gay and then later in life chose to be straight, got married, had kids?
My point is, it is not just genetic. Humans have such a powerful mind that they can override what they were born to be. You may argue that they are not truly homosexual or truly heterosexual in situations like that..but I disagree; if a man get can a boner right before he has sex with a women, he is sexually attracted to that women. (Women are a lot different, imo. It seems that their sexual attraction is a lot more psychologically driven than a man's...though they still have the same primal urges.)
See THIS post. [/B][/QUOTE]
I saw that post...I just forgot about it. Could you expand on that a little more for me?
*That is just something dorky I say, irl, because I think it sounds funny.
Originally posted by Devil King
And what's the difference between a homosexual that is the product of his society and a homosexual that is the product of his genetics? How can you tell the difference?
I don't think we will know that until we unlock all of the secrets of the human genome. We may, all of a sudden, make a huge break through and be able to design a human gene by gene with a computer. (I don't see why would couldn't in the near future...as long as we unlock fully and completely how genes work.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think we will know that until we unlock all of the secrets of the human genome. We may, all of a sudden, make a huge break through and be able to design a human gene by gene with a computer. (I don't see why would couldn't in the near future...as long as we unlock fully and completely how genes work.)
So, how do we tell a genetic homo from a society homo?
Originally posted by Devil King
So, how do we tell a genetic homo from a society homo?
Like I posted earlier in the thread...I think it is a combination of both sometimes. I don't think that someone is genetically 100% homosexual, either. I think many genetic factors and environment factors contribute to heterosexuality and homosexuality.
More than likely, we will unlock what increases the probability of being homosexual rather than showing the genetics contributes 100% why a person is homosexual.
Someone asked earlier why someone would want to chose homosexuality when they will be made fun of and looked down upon by society, etc. Well, I have seen it first hand. I know two people who chose homosexuality JUST to be part of a group as if it was a fad. They had the sex and gayed it up with the best of them. Later, they said it was just for the attention and to be part of a group and that they weren't really gay.
I have also seen rebellious teenagers do homosexual things just to get back at their controlling parents. (I live in the bible belt...parents can be way too preachy and children can get really rebellious.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Like I posted earlier in the thread...I think it is a combination of both sometimes. I don't think that someone is genetically 100% homosexual, either. I think many genetic factors and environment factors contribute to heterosexuality and homosexuality.More than likely, we will unlock what increases the probability of being homosexual rather than showing the genetics contributes 100% why a person is homosexual.
Someone asked earlier why someone would want to chose homosexuality when they will be made fun of and looked down upon by society, etc. Well, I have seen it first hand. I know two people who chose homosexuality JUST to be part of a group as if it was a fad. They had the sex and gayed it up with the best of them. Later, they said it was just for the attention and to be part of a group and that they weren't really gay.
I have also seen rebellious teenagers do homosexual things just to get back at their controlling parents. (I live in the bible belt...parents can be way too preachy and children can get really rebellious.)
So, had they not told you they were "faking", how would you have been able to tell they were ingenuine?
I also grew up in the bible belt. I've never encountered these faux homosexuals, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. I've never met a black Irishman, but I assume they're out there.
Originally posted by Devil King
So, had they not told you they were "faking", how would you have been able to tell they were ingenuine?
When it comes to cumming into another man's ass, it is very hard to fake that. I really don't think it is faking in the way we think it is. Sex is a very psychological thing. (Being turned on, etc.) If you are really into something, it isn't hard (pardon the pun) to gain satisfaction from it. Some people are really into cutting and then they aren't and later say they were just being young and stupid and looking for attention. I would place the "faux" into a similar group. (In fact, some people get sexual satisfaction from the cutting as well.)
Originally posted by Devil King
I also grew up in the bible belt. I've never encountered these faux homosexuals, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. I've never met a black Irishman, but I assume they're out there.
I think they are a lot more common than you think...in fact, I think that some never leave that stage and adopt the entire thing permanently.
Have you ever known a gay guy who was normal and met up with him several years down the road and all of a sudden he has the "flamer" type of personality. (You know the type.) Is that real? I am sure there are those out there who are the exact opposite...ones that are the "flamer" type and become calm but are still gay.
How come some lesbians adopt the butch type of personality and some don't. (I am not saying that all adopt the butch type of personality...some were like that their whole life.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
When it comes to cumming into another man's ass, it is very hard to fake that.
Straight porn stars do it all the time when they're staring in gay porn.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I really don't think it is faking in the way we think it is. Sex is a very psychological thing. (Being turned on, etc.) If you are really into something, it isn't hard (pardon the pun) to gain satisfaction from it. Some people are really into cutting and then they aren't and later say they were just being young and stupid and looking for attention. I would place the "faux" into a similar group. (In fact, some people get sexual satisfaction from the cutting as well.)
I don't understand. You're either faking or you're not. If you're "really into it", then you're in to it for real. I've had encounters with guys that I've known for years, who experimented once or twice and never did it again. In some cases, it lead to a much more open and understanding friendship. Others that I know did it, regreted it and the friendship was ruined. But, in those cases, it was them making the first move. Which tells me they thought about it beforehand. (most likely simply based on the fact that the other guy is gay) when it's happened to me, I'm the one who puts an end to it, and it offends them, like I rejected them or something. But, it has more to do with the fact that they'd been drinking when they made the advance, and I'm not up for taking advantage of someone.
Something that far too many people fail to understand is that a person can be involved in a homosexual act because it takes place between themselves and someone they care for. Homosexual acts occur between two guys who have been friends for a really long time, more often than most people would think. And it's even easier to happen when one of them is gay. Something that I have always thought was unfair is the stereotype that guys can't have deep feelings for their friends. Women posses the same emotions as men, and no one thinks twice if you see two women holding hands, they could just be acting like women. But if one of my straight friends puts his arm around my shoulders, they have to have developed a defense to the knee jerk reaction that people will think he's gay just because he touches me. Without realizing it, men can become just as emotionally attached to their friends as they do to their girlfriends. This is sometimes expressed through sex acts. It sounds like bullshit, but there really are guys out there that are gay for this guy or that one, only.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think they are a lot more common than you think...in fact, I think that some never leave that stage and adopt the entire thing permanently.
I'm sure sex acts between two straight guys happen. But my experience with the "straight guy" at the club with all the gay friends, is more a matter of attention. Some of them are gay, no doubt. (who the hell spends their honeymoon at a gay club, dragging his chubby wife around to meet all the hot guys?) And others are so desperate for attention, that they take it to an extreme. How someone uses their version of logic and arrives at the conclusion that getting attention from gay guys lends meaning to theri life is beyond me.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Have you ever known a gay guy who was normal and met up with him several years down the road and all of a sudden he has the "flamer" type of personality. (You know the type.) Is that real? I am sure there are those out there who are the exact opposite...ones that are the "flamer" type and become calm but are still gay.
I find this statement a little intentionally ignorant. Even gay guys who are effete are normal. No, I've never met a guy that was "straight acting", what ever the hell that is, and then became a flamer. Perhaps you have met more gay people than I have.
Originally posted by dadudemon
How come some lesbians adopt the butch type of personality and some don't. (I am not saying that all adopt the butch type of personality...some were like that their whole life.)
I know a number of straight butch women.
Originally posted by Devil King
Straight porn stars do it all the time when they're staring in gay porn.I don't understand. You're either faking or you're not. If you're "really into it", then you're in to it for real. I've had encounters with guys that I've known for years, who experimented once or twice and never did it again. In some cases, it lead to a much more open and understanding friendship. Others that I know did it, regreted it and the friendship was ruined. But, in those cases, it was them making the first move. Which tells me they thought about it beforehand. (most likely simply based on the fact that the other guy is gay) when it's happened to me, I'm the one who puts an end to it, and it offends them, like I rejected them or something. But, it has more to do with the fact that they'd been drinking when they made the advance, and I'm not up for taking advantage of someone.
Something that far too many people fail to understand is that a person can be involved in a homosexual act because it takes place between themselves and someone they care for. Homosexual acts occur between two guys who have been friends for a really long time, more often than most people would think. And it's even easier to happen when one of them is gay. Something that I have always thought was unfair is the stereotype that guys can't have deep feelings for their friends. Women posses the same emotions as men, and no one thinks twice if you see two women holding hands, they could just be acting like women. But if one of my straight friends puts his arm around my shoulders, they have to have developed a defense to the knee jerk reaction that people will think he's gay just because he touches me. Without realizing it, men can become just as emotionally attached to their friends as they do to their girlfriends. This is sometimes expressed through sex acts. It sounds like bullshit, but there really are guys out there that are gay for this guy or that one, only.
I'm sure sex acts between two straight guys happen. But my experience with the "straight guy" at the club with all the gay friends, is more a matter of attention. Some of them are gay, no doubt. (who the hell spends their honeymoon at a gay club, dragging his chubby wife around to meet all the hot guys?) And others are so desperate for attention, that they take it to an extreme. How someone uses their version of logic and arrives at the conclusion that getting attention from gay guys lends meaning to theri life is beyond me.
I enjoyed this post. It shows insight that I don't get very often.
I am not so insecure that I won't put my arm around my best friend. When he comes over, I hug him, when he leaves, I hug him. (He only visits for about a week every other year and I really do love him like a brother.) I tell him that I love him, just like I like I do my brothers. We are both very straight men, though. I don't get why guys have to be so homophobic all the time about that stuff. This is where "black dudes" are different than "white dudes": I was always greeted by my black friends with a grip and hug. (Where you you grab the other person's hand by the thumb and use your other arm to hug the other person.) I also hear Italians a little more affectionate than other cultures, so my family and I may be different than most Americans.
Originally posted by Devil King
I find this statement a little intentionally ignorant. Even gay guys who are effete are normal. No, I've never met a guy that was "straight acting", what ever the hell that is, and then became a flamer. Perhaps you have met more gay people than I have.
I didn't know the term for a gay guy is is flamboyant, joyous, bouncy, etc. other than effeminate...but I thought that that word was offensive to homosexuals so I didn't use it. (Like calling someone a "nancy" or something.) One of my old bosses called those really extreme types "flaming homosexuals" and he found that persona to be over exaggerated and degrading to homosexuals so I figured that you and others would understand what I meant. (On the same token, calling someone a flamer is offensive too...I have never heard "effeminate" used to neutrally describe someone either...)
Originally posted by Devil King
I know a number of straight butch women.
And I know a couple of completely straight effeminate who would never guess that they weren't gay. I am not running for office so I am bound to make statements that aren't perfect.
It's genetic. I can't help who I like or what I'm attracted too. In my younger years I tried to deny to myself that I was infact, gay. I forced myself to think about women and tried to be aroused by them, but it didn't swing with me. I'm also pretty sure that it wasn't my environment because I grew up in the same type that my straight friends did.
Chosen? What the f--- is up with that? I strongly disagree with that, but I'm just one gay man and I clearly didn't choose. Before I accepted who I am, there were things I thought about that I didn't choose to pop into my head, they were things I couldn't avoid. It was natural, it was genetic and that's my opinion on it.