Originally posted by The Omega
Adventchild> Beats me. I think it deals with “unnatural”, “natural” and taking stuff in the Bible literally.Ytaker> You can ramble as much as you like about constants. Fact of the matter is, you said God may not mess with people’s free will, and yet he did. He hardened the Pharaohs heart against Moses.
SO – God messed royally with free will. Instead of just making the Pharaoh all nice and cooperative, God elected to harden his heart – we know the end-result. The blood-thirsty slaughter of all the first-borns of Egypt.
WHO – by the way did NOT elect the Pharaoh. Your “he was elected by birth” is plain nonsense. For some-one claiming to be a genius, you’re lacking in basic argumentation…We view slavery as wrong today, yes. Back in those days it was okay. The Israelis had slaves, too.
Oh, and I want you to see
1) The Egyptians didn’t ELECT their Pharaoh.
2) Your every-day Egyptian had no say in whether or not the Israelis were slaves.
3) God was a blood-thirsty killer, when he killed all the first-borns. If he could harden Pharaoh’s heart he could just as well have made him agreeable.
I pointed out that God hardened the Pharohs in a way that is not breaking any rules. He acted against the Pharoh's will. He didn't change the balance of chemicals in the Pharoh's mind.
I'm lacking in patience. The fact that I slipped up on a word is not important. The Pharoh was enthroned. It may have involved fighting family for the honour of inheriting. Simple. Ignore the past words.
They had rules though. They freed them every seven years, as God told them to. God didn't change the social regime, just made it nicer.
He was born, they followed.
He did have a say in whether he used them, beat them, or traded them. Your every day Egyption used the slave labour of the state to increase their status.
Pity he couldn't soften a person's heart then.
Originally posted by AdventChild
?....ok..... what does that have to deal with Homosexuality being a choice or genetics?
Not a clue.
Omega? After you've posted a long and ardous read about how the Pharoh was actually born into the throne, how the fact that God hardened the Pharoh's will in a human way doesn't change that he hardened etc, shall we drop it?
Your every day Egyption used the slave labour of the state to increase their status.the every day egyption lived under a dictatorship and had no say, they believed their Pharoe to be a god and you dont want to question a god and feel all of his/her wrath? They were just a much victims of the Pharoes rule as slaves were. Every day egyptian couldnt afford slaves
Okay, let's put one thing to rest. There were slaves in ancient Egypt. They weren't jews, they weren't Egyptians. The pyramids and all other structures in Egypt were built by paid artisans and labourers. These people lived off the land. Grain was like currency to them. Now, when the Nile would flood and cover the farm land, the citizenry had to find someway to feed their family. When the flood waters receeded, the farms would be covered in the rich minerals that had been brought down from up-river by the flood. This is how the Nile valley, located in a desert, was so lush and yeilded so much agriculture. While these farmers waited for the flood waters to draw back, they worked on government building projects. The only slaves in Egypt were brought to the country because of the results of wars and conquest. Nubians, or black Africans, were a mainstay in the Egyptian slave trade. In fact, the term "slave" kind of had a different meaning in ancient Egypt. Most "slaves" were forced to serve in the Egyptian military, conquering other lands in the service of Pharaoh.
Egypt was one of the most socially advanced ancient cultures. Women had rights, they could own land and serve in the highest levels of government. Slaves could become citizens. There was a sense of social morality that ruled over the most public facets of their society. (But, just like us, public morals were seldom followed in private)
So, there were a lot of historical occurances that prove the story told in the bible, but none of them confirm the existance of god. The Nile turning blood red coincided with volcanic activity up-river.
Ytaker> 😆
“I pointed out that God hardened the Pharohs in a way that is not breaking any rules. He acted against the Pharoh's will. He didn't change the balance of chemicals in the Pharoh's mind.”
How do YOU ”know the rules”? Where in the Bible is it written that the rules for messing with free will is ”so and so”?
It STILL doesn’t change the fact that God messed with the Pharaohs free will, and went on a killing-spree in Egypt. One that wasn’t needed.
” The fact that I slipped up on a word is not important.” Slipped? You were wrong and do not want to admit it, and I don’t care about your patience. Don’t start writing if you have NO idea about what you’re talking about.
The Pharaoh was a GOD in the eyes of the ancient egyptians. Sure they followed him. You and me would’ve done the same had we lived back then.
And slaves were common back then. The Egyptians had them, the babylonians, the Romans, and… yes… the Isralietes had them. So?
” Pity he couldn't soften a person's heart then.” So God COULDN’T soften the heart of the Pharaoh??? What happened to almighty and all-powerful?
We’re now in the interesting situation where either
a) God could not soften the Pharaohs heart – so God is not almighty and does not warrant any worship, or
b) God wilfully and purposefully (as is written in the Christian Bible) hardens the Pharaohs heart, so he won’t let the Israelis go. God messes with free will in a way, that lets God kill all firstborns in Egypt. A ruthless and needless gesture, as God could’ve chosen to soften the Pharaohs heart instead, making God evil and also not one anyone should worship.
Or - should we NOT take Exodus literally??
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Okay, let's put one thing to rest. There were slaves in ancient Egypt. They weren't jews, they weren't Egyptians. The pyramids and all other structures in Egypt were built by paid artisans and labourers. These people lived off the land. Grain was like currency to them. Now, when the Nile would flood and cover the farm land, the citizenry had to find someway to feed their family. When the flood waters receeded, the farms would be covered in the rich minerals that had been brought down from up-river by the flood. This is how the Nile valley, located in a desert, was so lush and yeilded so much agriculture. While these farmers waited for the flood waters to draw back, they worked on government building projects. The only slaves in Egypt were brought to the country because of the results of wars and conquest. Nubians, or black Africans, were a mainstay in the Egyptian slave trade. In fact, the term "slave" kind of had a different meaning in ancient Egypt. Most "slaves" were forced to serve in the Egyptian military, conquering other lands in the service of Pharaoh.Egypt was one of the most socially advanced ancient cultures. Women had rights, they could own land and serve in the highest levels of government. Slaves could become citizens. There was a sense of social morality that ruled over the most public facets of their society. (But, just like us, public morals were seldom followed in private)
So, there were a lot of historical occurances that prove the story told in the bible, but none of them confirm the existance of god. The Nile turning blood red coincided with volcanic activity up-river.
Do you know whether they had any bias towards homosexuality? Another advanced culture, the Greeks, were ardent supporters. I was wondering whether the status of the culture had anything to do with their biases. Are we primitive, socially stunted people for having such a possibility of bigotry? Or is it just a random facet of culture?
ok is people still thinking that one day u wake up and say am gay?
gee, it's like ure likes, say u cant decide whether u like chocolate ice cream or not...or can u? u cant!! if u dont like it, then dammit u just dont! if someone likes someone of the same sex, then dammit he likes the person of the same sex, he doesnt decide whether he liked him/her! it's all just DNA!
Originally posted by A4E
ok is people still thinking that one day u wake up and say am gay?
gee, it's like ure likes, say u cant decide whether u like chocolate ice cream or not...or can u? u cant!! if u dont like it, then dammit u just dont! if someone likes someone of the same sex, then dammit he likes the person of the same sex, he doesnt decide whether he liked him/her! it's all just DNA!
They didn't have biases. Not they had a desire to sleep with men. It was considered a normal thing. Complaining about it would be like me complaining that Mars was the fourth planet in the solar system.
Originally posted by Ytaker
Do you know whether they had any bias towards homosexuality? Another advanced culture, the Greeks, were ardent supporters. I was wondering whether the status of the culture had anything to do with their biases. Are we primitive, socially stunted people for having such a possibility of bigotry? Or is it just a random facet of culture?
No, they were "accepting" of homosexuality. It's accepted as fact that several Pharaohs had male lovers. Also, today, it has been published that 86% of Egyptian males are bi-sexual. (I read this in a magazine several yearas ago, otherwise I would post a link) Which was confirmed by my boss, who traveled to Egypt and said he had sex constantly while there.
He said that homosexuality was accepted as a part of life, but that it wasn't discussed. It sounds a lot like Latin American cultures, where it is accepted, but not in public.
Why did God allow his chosen people to be enslaved in the first place then?
And I just had a bit of a revelation--I have no idea if this has been posted before or if I've been having a brain fart that has given me a "laerning disablite" when it comes to the Bible.
Perhaps God's killing of the firstborn children of the Egyptians was to return Pharaoh's favor when he had the Israelite boys thrown in the river. Perhaps this was the motivation, perhaps this was not the motivation. I wish I could read and understand the original text of the Bible before it got mucked up in the various translations...maybe that'd give me some insight on this particular dilemma.
Ok, so I realise I'm comming in pretty late, but speaking as a gay man, I didn't just decide well, everyone is into girls and I want to be different, so I'll do guys. I always thought that I was different than the other boys, but I didn't know why, and then when I hit puberty, I kinda had an idea, I found other guys attractive. I tried being attracted to girls, but I never had the same feelings for them as I did guys.
Why would I choose to be hated? Does it makes sense for anyone to choose a life where you are constantly having to proove your so called "lifestyle" is normal and appropriate? It gets really old, really fast. I didn't choose to be gay, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let others make me inferior.
Maybe God killed those children, because, as God, he kills children constantly? Just a thought. He kills constantly, period. Good, bad, young, old. Why do you think that this death is only acceptable if it is an unconscious, mindless force? If there is an afterlife, there we must go, by mechanism or shepherding.
And, Seahawk, I don't think you're inferior. Nor do I think I know your mind or your experiences, just by casual observation. People who suppose they do... don't have a lot of importance to you, emotionally, do they?
Originally posted by A4E
ok is people still thinking that one day u wake up and say am gay?
gee, it's like ure likes, say u cant decide whether u like chocolate ice cream or not...or can u? u cant!! if u dont like it, then dammit u just dont! if someone likes someone of the same sex, then dammit he likes the person of the same sex, he doesnt decide whether he liked him/her! it's all just DNA!
although, if u didnt like chocolate ice cream but you ate it every night and told yourself that you like it, im pretty sure that in the end you would find that you like it . . . . . or at least grew accustomed to the taste of it and didnt think of it in the same way you originally did. i know that was slightly irrelevant but anyway . . . . . 😛 i suppose the same could be said about having feelings for people of the same sex. if u concentrated hard enough on telling yourself that u like people of the same sex, u could probably convince yourself. Cant tell u from personal experience tho, ive never tried 😛 😄
Originally posted by Morningstar
although, if u didnt like chocolate ice cream but you ate it every night and told yourself that you like it, im pretty sure that in the end you would find that you like it . . . . . or at least grew accustomed to the taste of it and didnt think of it in the same way you originally did. i know that was slightly irrelevant but anyway . . . . . 😛 i suppose the same could be said about having feelings for people of the same sex. if u concentrated hard enough on telling yourself that u like people of the same sex, u could probably convince yourself. Cant tell u from personal experience tho, ive never tried 😛 😄
That almost sounds like a workable formula. Why don't you give that a try and let the rest of us know how it works out for you?