Originally posted by pr1983
no, u misunderstood, im not talking about women, im talking about men who are independent and stand up for themsleves, but are lynched because of it.
what does this independence, standing up for themselves and not letting one's girlfriend push you around (this last bit from your previous post) involve?
mr zero/silver stardust: thanks 🙂 *takes a bow*
I agree about the independence.
how 'treated worse'? you're still the ones with the good jobs, the best opportunities, etc. you're still favoured by society. I know that the gender roles have changed and that it's getting harder and harder to find your place as a man/woman, but that goes for both sexes. women too are lynched when standing up for themselves, so the suspicion also goes both ways.
id mostly agree with you, but there are some massive female biased things in society, like fathers rights when the parents seperate, 9 times out of ten the mother is given the custody, and that is one reason im so afraid to have kids, because i know the law will most likely favour the mother (even though the woman i am with i consider to be my soulmate, to me shes like a queen). Thats ten times more important to me than any jobs. that said, As men, you cant so much as glance at a woman in the workplace nowadays without the words 'sexual harrassment' coming into your head, even when you arent doing anything wrong. and what about when a woman cries rape? how often will the press (if they are involved) side with the man? or even his friends and family? look at john leslie (a british tv personality whos career was ruined by false rape accusations, he cant get a job anywhere anymore). i agree its hard to be a woman, of course it is, men still hold a lot of power, but they are a small minority. i just think that its a lot harder to be what youd call an average guy in todays world than you ladies think. (apologies for the grammar, it isn't the best)
why is the mother favoured? because it's still widely believed that the mother's the most important of the parents. I agree that when the child's very small, she is, but as it grows up nothing holds the father back from taking part of the upbringing. in the cases of divorce this is of course in the favour of the woman, but when it comes to applying for a job or similiar things? it's pretty bad, course she's expected to be the one leaving work for a very long time in order to take care of the children. therefore I see this not only as a problem for men, but for women too.
if the words 'sexual harrasment' comes into your head when looking at a woman it's not her fault, is it? as long as she's not complaining about you it's something for you, and you alone, to deal with. yes, some women take unfair advantage of the possibility for taking male collegues to court, but most do not. that there's such a large percentage of women taking men to court's not the women's fault (unless of course the guy's innocent), but the men themselves. it's only the symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.
when it comes to rape, women still are in a very tough position. I don't know how things are in Ireland, but here in denmark, you really don't want to be a rape victim:
1: unless you have bruises and marks to show, you have not, according to the law, been raped.
2: if you have not struggled and clearly said 'no', you have not really been raped either (regardless of the fact that women often 'black out' during a rape in order to stay alive. it's instinctive and cannot be fought.)
3: only a very small percentage of men charged for rape are ever sentenced, simply because the court gives HIM the benefit of the doubt. so no, maybe the press won't, but the court sure as hell will.
if you're not found guilty in a crime, I agree that you should not be judged for it by others. still, in the case of rape, so few men are sentenced that quite a lot of guilty arse holes walk free. I have a hard time myself to feel sorry for those 'innocents', even though of course I cannot tell for sure whether they did it or not. I'm biased in this matter, I admit.
no, men who hold the power are not a small minority. very few women hold powerfull positions.
as I've said before, I know it's hard to be a man these days, just as it's pretty hard being a woman. thing is, there's a lot you guy can do yourself to change this. and I don't mean getting all aggressive and blame women for everything and fight to reclaim the old gender roles, but find a new male role. difficult, I know, but ultimately necessary course things have already changed and they won't be the same again.
Originally posted by finti
Yes I know, after all I am a parent, but just because one is favoured doesnt make them more important.
I am the favoured one at home
it wasn't a rhetoric question. since I didn't know about the 6 months I simply asked you for more info. ( it did sound rhetoric though, I admit.)
that's the point I was trying to get at in my post to pr1983. society (in the case of divorce the court) seems to favourise the mother over the father though she isn't necessarily the most important of the two.
first, as far as parents go line, once the child is born i believe both parents have equal responsibility, but society f*cked up in assuming women are naturally better parents than men.
as for sexual harrassment, the world is so politically correct nowadays its beyond a joke. the problem is that men are easily exploited when it comes to this, because a lot of these women overreact. granted a woman should never have to feel uncomfortable, but too many abuse the system because they can get away with it so easily. just to elaborate, any at all is too many.
i have to say i was shocked to hear they treat women so badly as regards to rape, and it shares similarities with ireland. yes, too many guys get away with it, but i cant see why they dont punish the woman when its a false claim. a man can lose everything if hes even accused of rape, and even when it comes out that he didnt do it, the accuser walks away scott free leaving this guys life in ruins. i have to commend you line for admitting your biased in that regard, and i have even more respect for you than before. as you can tell i am biased in my regard, because i fear it could happen to me one day. i used to be a one night stand kinda guy, but im past all that now. but its so dangerous for guys to even do that nowadays, even though one night stands are meant to be consensual. im not saying its right or wrong to be promiscuous, i'm just saying people should be allowed to have the sex life they prefer without fear of being wrongly accused.
as for jobs, when i said minority i meant of men, not in comparison to women. yes there are more men in positions of power, but its a minority of men, as in if u have ten guys, one is an executive and the other nine arent. im one of the nine unfortunately.
as for male gender roles, im perfectly happy with being a strong guy, im with a strong women, yes we're both stubborn but we deal with it. i'm not outspoken, but i call a spade a spade. guys have faults, women have faults, its not rocket science, but nowadays i guy will be lynched cos of it. example, my supervisor is a woman, if i make a complaint that she wasnt doing her job properly, i'll be branded sexist and as trying to oppress women, which isnt true, i just felt she wasnt doing her job properly. i'd do the same if it was a guy.
there's a lot you guy can do yourself to change this. and I don't mean getting all aggressive and blame women for everything and fight to reclaim the old gender roles, but find a new male role. difficult, I know, but ultimately necessary course things have already changed and they won't be the same again
can u please reiterate what u mean, i dont think i got the meaning.
Originally posted by pr1983
first, as far as parents go line, once the child is born i believe both parents have equal responsibility, but society f*cked up in assuming women are naturally better parents than men.as for sexual harrassment, the world is so politically correct nowadays its beyond a joke. the problem is that men are easily exploited when it comes to this, because a lot of these women overreact. granted a woman should never have to feel uncomfortable, but too many abuse the system because they can get away with it so easily. just to elaborate, any at all is too many.
i have to say i was shocked to hear they treat women so badly as regards to rape, and it shares similarities with ireland. yes, too many guys get away with it, but i cant see why they dont punish the woman when its a false claim. a man can lose everything if hes even accused of rape, and even when it comes out that he didnt do it, the accuser walks away scott free leaving this guys life in ruins. i have to commend you line for admitting your biased in that regard, and i have even more respect for you than before. as you can tell i am biased in my regard, because i fear it could happen to me one day. i used to be a one night stand kinda guy, but im past all that now. but its so dangerous for guys to even do that nowadays, even though one night stands are meant to be consensual. im not saying its right or wrong to be promiscuous, i'm just saying people should be allowed to have the sex life they prefer without fear of being wrongly accused.
as for jobs, when i said minority i meant of men, not in comparison to women. yes there are more men in positions of power, but its a minority of men, as in if u have ten guys, one is an executive and the other nine arent. im one of the nine unfortunately.
as for male gender roles, im perfectly happy with being a strong guy, im with a strong women, yes we're both stubborn but we deal with it. i'm not outspoken, but i call a spade a spade. guys have faults, women have faults, its not rocket science, but nowadays i guy will be lynched cos of it. example, my supervisor is a woman, if i make a complaint that she wasnt doing her job properly, i'll be branded sexist and as trying to oppress women, which isnt true, i just felt she wasnt doing her job properly. i'd do the same if it was a guy.
can u please reiterate what u mean, i dont think i got the meaning.
I'll have to admit that I don't know a whole lot about the law on sexual harrassment in this country, nor in any other. I don't even read a lot about it in the papers, which sort of makes me believe that there aren't too many problems about men being prosecuted without cause and therefore not a lot of women exploiting this opportunity. I think this may have something to do with the companies' abilities of taking care of the problems on their own and I believe that this, in most cases, is the best way to go; every working place needs a strict set of rules regarding sexual harrassment and the manager should be taught how to handle complains on this matter. if she/he cannot sort the problem out, first then it should be taken to court. it's more constructive and might in some cases scare women off from complaining without a cause. it also might help solving out simple misunderstandings. in all cases, if a woman complains about sexual harrassment, it should be taken seriously.
I don't think a woman should be punished for accusing a man of rape, course even if she looses the case there's quite a big chance that it wasn't because she was wrong, but because he got the benefit of the doubt. it might also very well scare women off going through with the accusation, and there're already too many women choosing this, simply because it's such a gruelling proces.
on the other hand, I would wish the women who accuse without a cause could be punished. they might ruin some innocent guys life, as well as they make it harder on the women who really have been raped and now might be regarded with even more suspicion.
still, the evidence of false accusation should be very strong before such a thing. and even then I'm not too fond of it, as some women may choose to withdraw their accusation out of fear, not because they were wrong.
yes, people should be able to lead the sexual life they prefer without fear, but I'm afraid this is not completely possible. as a woman, you have the fears of rape, unwanted pregnancies and deceases, as a guy you may now, besides from the deceases, also have the fear of a false accusation of rape. it's not right, I know, but it's a fact. that means we'll just have to be more responsible when having sex. for one thing, men shouldn't take advantage of drunken girls. neither should girls leave with overly drunk men. it helps making sure that it was consensual. what you may regard as a false accusation, she might not, so it might also help avoid misunderstandings.
but what happens when these men resign? they hire new men, some of the other nine guys of your example, to take their place.
guys are lynched, women are lynched. all the time. where you may be branded a sexist, I'll be branded hysterical (and probably receive a remark about whether I'm pms or what 😉 ) it sucks and we need to deal with it.
what I meant was that it's mostly regarded the womens' fault that everything's gone wrong and men can't be men any longer. thing is that we can't go back to how it was. the old gender roles just don't work proberly anymore. women have changed a lot. so should men.
if a woman complains about sexual harrassment, it should be taken seriously.
of course, but they have to be fair to the guy also.
I don't think a woman should be punished for accusing a man of rape, course even if she looses the case there's quite a big chance that it wasn't because she was wrong, but because he got the benefit of the doubt. it might also very well scare women off going through with the accusation, and there're already too many women choosing this, simply because it's such a gruelling proces.
on the other hand, I would wish the women who accuse without a cause could be punished. they might ruin some innocent guys life, as well as they make it harder on the women who really have been raped and now might be regarded with even more suspicion.
still, the evidence of false accusation should be very strong before such a thing. and even then I'm not too fond of it, as some women may choose to withdraw their accusation out of fear, not because they were wrong.
if shes wrong i believe she should go to jail or heavily fined, but i believe men should be punished if they did it, and women should not be afraid to come forward.
but what happens when these men resign? they hire new men, some of the other nine guys of your example, to take their place.
maybe, but there are a lot of men who dont have any power whatsoever, who work ungodly hours for shit money just to make sure their family have a roof over their head and food on the table. i think there are more of this type of man (i'll be one) than there are rich powerful ones. i know fewer women have roles of power, and yes it is wrong for men to have the monopoly. just lets not forget about the other guys, thats all im saying.
guys are lynched, women are lynched. all the time. where you may be branded a sexist, I'll be branded hysterical (and probably receive a remark about whether I'm pms or what ) it sucks and we need to deal with it.
😂... your right though.
what I meant was that it's mostly regarded the womens' fault that everything's gone wrong and men can't be men any longer. thing is that we can't go back to how it was. the old gender roles just don't work proberly anymore. women have changed a lot. so should men.
i have had to change, but i still reserve the right to 'be a man' whenever i want. i would consider myself to be adaptable that way, one minute i could be talking to my gf telling her how much i love and miss her, the next i'll be outside getting into fights on the football pitch. i think guys can still be guys, just not all the time. i also believe women can be as independent as they like, but theres nothing wrong with a guy opening a door or pulling out a chair for her. i think women need to realise that its okay to be vulnerable sometimes.
they have to be fair to both, yes.
if she's to be punished, the evidence must be very, VERY good. either that, or she must have confessed ( with a psychologist approving she's not lying, which she might be if she's in a a very bad mental condition.) otherwise I fear that women are even less likely to come forward than they are now.
I don't think that just because a man holds a powerfull position he's a terrible and sexist person. that's not what I meant. so just because there're so few of them doesn't mean that there're few, biased men in the world. it just means that few of these hold important positions. I know that many men work hard to support their families, so do many women. this is not a way to decide whether the person is sexist or not though.
that's what I was getting at; as I read your post, you 'divide' yourself into two 'persons'; the more 'soft' and 'feminine' one and the 'rough' and 'masculine' one. that's one of the problems with gender roles. it's still considered 'not masculine' to be gentle, while very very masculine to get in a fight. thing is, these ways of regarding what's masculine and feminine are very much decided by society; once, it was very un-feminine to wear trousers, now it isn't. once, men couldn't have long hair, now they can. once it wasn't regarded feminine to study, now it is. etc. etc. etc. what I'm longing for, is the day when men don't have to fight to be regarded masculine and when the man feeding a baby is the ultimate hot macho, as well as women can be feminine without having to be 'vulnerable', as you said, and still be able to hold important jobs and be leaders as well as be sexy and attractive to men ( meaning men won't be scared off and feel threatened into impotens by a woman earning more than him.)
i agree with your first part, i wish all women who are raped should come forward, i just feel the ones who do it falsely should be stopped asap.
as for the other, i know women do lots of things nowadays that werent looked on kindly in years past (study, trousers), and all the power to her for being what she wants to be, i admire that. having to divide myself i dont mind, i just wish more women would realise that its ok to be the same, they dont have to be strong 24/7, its ok to be vulnerable with someone, because they will respond in kind.
i'm gonna be honest with you and say yeah, it would be a bit intimidating if a woman earned more than me, but it wouldnt put me off her if i liked her. i'm probably a little old fashioned in believing that i'd prefer to be the provider, but if my partner wants to work, then i wont stand in her way. i have no problem with feeding a baby, in fact being the oldest of four ive done it many times, i know almost all there is to know about taking care of a baby, and i see that as a plus, not an affront to my masculinity.
the kind of guy i am though, i like to take care of a woman, treat her like a queen, put her up on a pedestal, all that, i dont see it as sexist, i just feel like wanting to make a woman happy, because she makes me happy in her own way. i dont believe thats sexist, i believe its being in love.
personally, i'm with a woman now who loves me as i am, and i her. shes strong, independent, outspoken, but she knows when to be vulnerable, to be (dare i say it) a woman(sorry i cant think of any other word). i am vulnerable with her and she with me, but we are the only ones who see that side of each other, and that means a lot to me. the only thing i ever asked of her was that she be faithful to me, because i am to her, and she would break my heart if she ever cheated on me. other than that shes free to do as she likes without me stepping in the way or objecting.
i still do what would be considered 'guy' things though, play football, watch action movies, all that shit, but i know when to be sensitive, which i think is an attribute. i still wouldnt give up what would be considered my 'masculine' side though, thats as much a part of me as anything.
Originally posted by Line
I didn't admit anything, I stated what everyone knows. we're different. still, where I don't see this difference as something negative, you seem to do and be in complete favour of the masculine values.
women aren't more important than men, and men aren't more important than women. especially when it comes to reproduction. you just called lil bitchiness evil because she said women can have children on their own. why do you then glorify the mother's role over the father's? the man's just as needed in the making and upbringing of the child, he just rarely takes that responsibility on him because he thinks it compromises his masculinity, which is utter bs.
you keep mentioning this superiority but don't really explain it, so I looked at the post you wrote for lil bitchiness in which you point at the male's physical strength. is THAT the superiority you're so fond of mentioning? the ability to carry heavy burdens and smack someone down? this was of course very usefull once, but in the society we have today, physical strength really isn't that important anymore. in stead, communication, understanding and other traditionally 'feminine' values seem be in more demand. besides, if you choose to view the less physical strength of females as a 'lack', then you too ought to view the males incapability of breast feeding and pregnancy as a such. thing is, these aren't 'lacks' but differences. that doesn't make any of the sexes superior to the other.please read the papers, watch some telly, go out a bit. men do whine. whenever the talk is on relationships, you can be sure to hear the, "but they've changed everything, I don't know what to do" talk. "if I open the doors for them, I'm bad, if I'm too soft I'm not sexy" etc. I know the gender roles have been radically changed, and still are changing, but instead of changing along with them, some men seem to stand still, bemoaning their 'lost manhoods'. ever heard of courses for men to regain their 'manhood' and learn to talk to their penises? ever heard men whining about the new commercials with the naked men, or just men in underwear? I have. their argument usually is that "women are used to be made into sexual objects, we're not." yes, men whine.
I HAVE looked at this thread, and to be honest I think it's the men who've been doing most of the whining. grown men, afraid they're wives won't love them if they don't change their names? please, that's whining. to be honest, I'm with back fire in wondering why you're so eager for your wife to change her name if you really look at it as a minor thing. why should this minor thing be to your advantage and not her's? because you're a man?
yes, I do think that it is commonly thought that it's the women who've screwed up everything and really ought to come down to earth again. you say so yourself. the pressure's on the women to change, not the men. that leaves the women with all the responsibility.
That was f.ucking awe-inspiring. Not often I read a lengthy post if I haven't actually participated in a thread, but this deserves credit muchly. Excellently detailed dearest, truly magnificent clapping