i have just absorbed jinzin....its not really C17 its jinzin.....any way i agree with u ......i dont know y i said the other guy was right.....u brought scientific facts...and ur post seems more legitimate, u r correct......captain america only stands a chance becasue he is a symbol.....other then that...he wont last 5 minutes.....
i'm gonna assume this battle has been posted many times, but look at the responses it still gets! classic. marvel really does need to have these 2 lock up in a real battle.
i really believe this could go either way. i can't stand wolvie - tends to be too overrated in my book - and i like cap, but still this is too close. when they met back in that cap annual, they stalemated each other. one thing that no one has mentioned though that i thought i might add - cap's shield is not only for defense. it's adamantium edge is sharper than any sword. it would only take one well placed shot at logan's throat and while his skeleton may keep his head from completely falling off, logan would still be turned into a pez dispenser. cap rarely uses his shield in this way against anything other than robots, but if this were a true fight to the finish/cap pushed to his absolute limits, he could use the strategy against wolvie and i think he would beat him.
and everyong makes a big deal about wolvies martial arts and experience - cap was trained by the finest military fighters - all offensive minded training AND he honed his skill in war. no better testing ground. cap will have seen things that would make other heroes pass out. wolvie's strength advantage wouldn't be enough to tip the scales, though his healing factor might be a problem. cap would have to try and end the battle quicker than he normally might, and have to end it more decisively.
cap is not just some goody-two-shoes. when he's written well, he is an amazing character capable of almost anything. why else does the whole marvel universe (even thor) revere the guy?
i think cap would take him, but he'd have to find new limits and break many of his own moral standards to do so.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm gonna assume this battle has been posted many times, but look at the responses it still gets! classic. marvel really does need to have these 2 lock up in a real battle.i really believe this could go either way. i can't stand wolvie - tends to be too overrated in my book - and i like cap, but still this is too close. when they met back in that cap annual, they stalemated each other. one thing that no one has mentioned though that i thought i might add - cap's shield is not only for defense. it's adamantium edge is sharper than any sword. it would only take one well placed shot at logan's throat and while his skeleton may keep his head from completely falling off, logan would still be turned into a pez dispenser. cap rarely uses his shield in this way against anything other than robots, but if this were a true fight to the finish/cap pushed to his absolute limits, he could use the strategy against wolvie and i think he would beat him.
and everyong makes a big deal about wolvies martial arts and experience - cap was trained by the finest military fighters - all offensive minded training AND he honed his skill in war. no better testing ground. cap will have seen things that would make other heroes pass out. wolvie's strength advantage wouldn't be enough to tip the scales, though his healing factor might be a problem. cap would have to try and end the battle quicker than he normally might, and have to end it more decisively.
cap is not just some goody-two-shoes. when he's written well, he is an amazing character capable of almost anything. why else does the whole marvel universe (even thor) revere the guy?
i think cap would take him, but he'd have to find new limits and break many of his own moral standards to do so.
I agree with this post almost totally, except I used to love Wolvie when Claremont first wrote him, its just he has had overexposure. As a brit strangely I still think Cap is great for the same reasons I love Supes. They are two of the few heroes who are timeless and will be around years after Spandex and Leather treny hero of the month has long gone 😄
See...here's the problem. Most t hings can go eitherway....But i hope that vs threads are to determine who has the upperhand, and I'm going to have to pick wolverine.
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm gonna assume this battle has been posted many times, but look at the responses it still gets! classic. marvel really does need to have these 2 lock up in a real battle.i really believe this could go either way. i can't stand wolvie - tends to be too overrated in my book - and i like cap, but still this is too close. when they met back in that cap annual, they stalemated each other. one thing that no one has mentioned though that i thought i might add - cap's shield is not only for defense. it's adamantium edge is sharper than any sword. it would only take one well placed shot at logan's throat and while his skeleton may keep his head from completely falling off, logan would still be turned into a pez dispenser. cap rarely uses his shield in this way against anything other than robots, but if this were a true fight to the finish/cap pushed to his absolute limits, he could use the strategy against wolvie and i think he would beat him.
and everyong makes a big deal about wolvies martial arts and experience - cap was trained by the finest military fighters - all offensive minded training AND he honed his skill in war. no better testing ground. cap will have seen things that would make other heroes pass out. wolvie's strength advantage wouldn't be enough to tip the scales, though his healing factor might be a problem. cap would have to try and end the battle quicker than he normally might, and have to end it more decisively.
cap is not just some goody-two-shoes. when he's written well, he is an amazing character capable of almost anything. why else does the whole marvel universe (even thor) revere the guy?
i think cap would take him, but he'd have to find new limits and break many of his own moral standards to do so.
Got any evidence? Or are you agreeing w/ me that the only reason Cap might win is because he is a popular icon so the writing will sway in his favor?
Originally posted by mr.smiley
yeah,it's been posted alot.
Stats,however,are only stats.Fights on paper aren't the actual fight.
In a battle situation a lot of things will determine the winner.While I think it would be an awesome fight,I still say capt A wins most the time.
Wolverine's claws are not irrelevant in this fight. Do you think absolutely no blows will connect between the two fighters? When Captain america lands a blow, wolverine will be hit by a fist. When Wolverine lands a blow, Capt america will be sliced up....that makes a difference.
Unfortunately for Logan, they are. First off, Cap uses his shield as a weapon just as much as his own fists and feet, which hurts a lot more. Secondly, no, Cap won't be cut because Wolverine cannot use his claws in this fight. But I agree, Cap would get cut at some point, but there's guarantee that one shot is all Wolverine needs; he's not much faster than Cap.
Realistically since wolverine can get his throat slashed through and still continue to fight, Captain america is nowhere near on par with Wolverine.
If Wolves can continue to fight after such an injury, it's because of him being a hard-ass, not his healing factor; it's not instantaneous.
I mean if he can heal minor organs like that, lactic acid will never have a chance to build up in his body...never.
Again, Wolverine's healing factor is not instantaneous. He'd be able to recover much faster than people without his regenerative powers and not get as tired as quickly, but he will still get tired.
And wolverine IS stronger than cap...if you check the marvel handbook Wolverine is rated above normal strength. But logically speaking...imagine you could heal like wolverine, that would put ur muscle capacity way above a normal human being. You guys do know that to become stronger you tear muscle and it repairs itself right? Wolverine's ability to do so @ such a rapid rate would most definitely put him above Captain america.
No he isn't. Cap is also above normal strength; he's at the peak ability possible for a human and no one else that has no amount of super strength can match or pass this. It's true that Wolverine could break down and repair his muscles to gain strength faster, but no person can become stronger than what's possible -- Wolverine is at his peak, he cannot become stronger. If he could, he would've already had enough time to build up strength enough to match at least on Ghost Rider's level. JWangSDC even brought up a 'stat sheet' that says Wolverine's skeleton allows him to press several hundred pounds for a short period of time; Cap can press more than that at his max.
In my opinion, captain america being that amazing of a fighter is already a stretch...I mean I accept it, but when exactly did he learn to be so good?
Dude, it's a comic book.
I'm not arguing w/ you anymore, at least not until you start reading comic books before you post nonsense. Let's recap:
First you say Wolverine's claws are a non-factor...then I tell you why they are a factor. I never said Captain America's shield isn't an advantage for cap.
Next you talk about lactic acid which you have no knowledge of, and you then give BS about captain america which A makes no sense and B simply isn't the case. Then I tell you what IS the case...how lactic acid works and why Captain America's body is amazing, but prove that Wolverine is just as amazing @ WORST, but more probably better.
Next you prove that you have no understanding of how Wolverine's healing factor works at all. It's become obvious to me that you've never read an actual comic book. Let me inform you...In new avengers 5( THE MOST RECENT DISPLAY OF WOLVERINE), he gets his claws stuck into his neck...and moments later it's healed. He already begins fighting back while his neck is already slit OPEN. SO, it DOES actually heal instantaneously. Why don't you read a comic book before responding? WHere did you get the idea of how wolverine's healing factor works? You obviously watched the cartoon show before and heard somethings over the internet and read some summaries...but you have no idea what's really up. Wolverine can get run over by a car and get back up...He heals instantly.
NEXT you take the TINIEST detail out of my sheet...and try to use it to say that Cap is stronger when the most important part is the RATINGS. and the RATING CLEARLY state Cap is rated @ 3 and Wolverine is rated @ 4?
THEN you talk about Wolverine not being stronger than cap because it's "not possible". Do not get into this pseudo scientific babble because like the lactic acid issue, you have no idea what you are talking about. A handful of men benchpress 1000lbs today...so what is possible? ANd what counts as possible anyway? The fact that wolverine has a healing factor THAT IS impossible, by real life standards, so it makes impossible feats possible for him...that's the point. All of your rebuttles have had no value evidence wise, they have just been fallacies that sound plausible to an uninformed reader. You are off...all EVIDENCE points to wolverine being the winner.
And you're going to use "dude it's a comic book" as an argument against me? First you say Wolverine can't bench press more than cap (800lbs) cuz he cant' do more than what's possible... and now you're gonna say "but it's a comic book" At least be consistent in your arguments. I AM already agreeing that it's a comic book and within its own context...cap's amazing fighting ability is hard to believe. I mean cap is rated @ 7... Silver Samurai and Sabertooth aren't even rated @ 7. Seriously...
Originally posted by Wanderer259
Unfortunately for Logan, they are. First off, Cap uses his shield as a weapon just as much as his own fists and feet, which hurts a lot more. Secondly, no, Cap won't be cut because Wolverine cannot use his claws in this fight. But I agree, Cap would get cut at some point, but there's guarantee that one shot is all Wolverine needs; he's not much faster than Cap.If Wolves can continue to fight after such an injury, it's because of him being a hard-ass, not his healing factor; it's not instantaneous.
Again, Wolverine's healing factor is not instantaneous. He'd be able to recover much faster than people without his regenerative powers and not get as tired as quickly, but he will still get tired.
No he isn't. Cap is also above normal strength; he's at the peak ability possible for a human and no one else that has no amount of super strength can match or pass this. It's true that Wolverine could break down and repair his muscles to gain strength faster, but no person can become stronger than what's possible -- Wolverine is at his peak, he cannot become stronger. If he could, he would've already had enough time to build up strength enough to match at least on Ghost Rider's level. JWangSDC even brought up a 'stat sheet' that says Wolverine's skeleton allows him to press several hundred pounds for a short period of time; Cap can press more than that at his max.
Dude, it's a comic book.
Originally posted by JWangSDC
Got any evidence? Or are you agreeing w/ me that the only reason Cap might win is because he is a popular icon so the writing will sway in his favor?
I actualy like wolverine better.In most arguments I like to root for logan but based on caps strengths in secret wars and the run-ins him and logan have had I say cap.A. will win most the time.
What I was trying to say about the stats you posted was,stats are just stats.While some characters would obvioulsy beat others,this match is just closer and I belive in most cases the winner will almost be a toss up depending on the surronding etc.
Thats interesting because I actually like Captain America more than Wolverine. I mean the man is THE PERFECT MAN. He has no super powers...but he never gives up. He never acts out of fear or hate, instead he does what's right. I can sympathize with Spider-Man so much more and as incredible a person as peter Parker is, Captain America commands more respect.
Now I'll get into the question...what is the point of vs threads? You say it's a coin-toss...I say isn't the point of a thread to determine who's got the advantage, even if it's the slightest one? Whats the point of a Captain America vs Galactus thread? It's pointless. Cap vs Wolverine is a good thread because it is a topic that is actually debateable.
And I don't think it's a coin toss...coin tosses are like 49.9999/50.0001. This match is more like A2 vs KQ in Poker. Wolverine is A2, he's got like a 57% chances of winning.
Originally posted by mr.smiley
I actualy like wolverine better.In most arguments I like to root for logan but based on caps strengths in secret wars and the run-ins him and logan have had I say cap.A. will win most the time.
What I was trying to say about the stats you posted was,stats are just stats.While some characters would obvioulsy beat others,this match is just closer and I belive in most cases the winner will almost be a toss up depending on the surronding etc.
"How dare you prove me wrong! Especially when i'm donning my official pretend moderator cap!
Is that what i get for trying to help??
heh"
lol...hahaha sorry man.... don't hurt me... 🙁
"So jinzin, how on earth was his post good? I don't see one valid point in it"
well...wang.....it was reasonable and thought out......using the perameters of both characters as they've been presented.....
anyways.....I realize that wolverine's healing factor can't get taxed out at first...but it will in the LONG RUN...and that's on IF captain america can drag the fight on long enough......that's the point I was trying to make....see as was pointed out earlier the sheild can be used as much for assault as for defense.....the thing about logans healing factor is that it takes energy.....when he heals it uses up energy to do so....so because he won't be fighting and replenishing himself with steaks during the fight cap has a chance of slowing it down....
Originally captain ameria was stronger than wolverine but wolverine has surpassed his strength in the last decade and a half with actuall feats......so no argument there...
"First you say Wolverine's claws are a non-factor...then I tell you why they are a factor. I never said Captain America's shield isn't an advantage for cap"
dude for the perameters of this fight, logan can't use his claws...why is this hard to understand? and wolverine can heal hella fast...very very very fast infact...but not instantly....his healing factor begins repairing damage instantly but it doesn't instantly heal him....
see where I'm coming from is this: if cap can stalemate wolvie while wolverine's using his deadliest weapons...than cap has a good chance of beating wollverine when wolverine's without them.
what part of wrong is reasonable? What part of thought out but based on fallacy is reasonable? Hmm Jinzin? I do however apologize for the claws part, if it wasn't obvious to you, I overlooked that part of the first msg.
And you want cap to wear wolverine out...because wolverine doesn't get to eat steaks? AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHA ROTFLMAO. So...let me get this straight. You want me to see where you are coming from. You are explaining to me that because Cap does not have a healig factor, if he stalemates wolverine...then sooner or later WOlverine will tire? Uhm....are you forgetting that cap will tire first? or is he eating power bars while fighting vs wolverine? How does that make any sense...if anyone gets worn out, it wil be cap. This isn't cap vs Batman... It's cap vs wolverine. Wolvie has the advantage in endurance. Kudos on ur "reasonable and thought out post"... cuz according to you a post that took some time to write, was completely off base being based on a fallacy makes it reasonable and thought out. LMAO
Originally posted by jinzin😆
"How dare you prove me wrong! Especially when i'm donning my official pretend moderator cap!
Is that what i get for trying to help??
heh"lol...hahaha sorry man.... don't hurt me... 🙁
"So jinzin, how on earth was his post good? I don't see one valid point in it"
well...wang.....it was reasonable and thought out......using the perameters of both characters as they've been presented.....
anyways.....I realize that wolverine's healing factor can't get taxed out at first...but it will in the LONG RUN...and that's on IF captain america can drag the fight on long enough......that's the point I was trying to make....see as was pointed out earlier the sheild can be used as much for assault as for defense.....the thing about logans healing factor is that it takes energy.....when he heals it uses up energy to do so....so because he won't be fighting and replenishing himself with steaks during the fight cap has a chance of slowing it down....
Originally captain ameria was stronger than wolverine but wolverine has surpassed his strength in the last decade and a half with actuall feats......so no argument there..."First you say Wolverine's claws are a non-factor...then I tell you why they are a factor. I never said Captain America's shield isn't an advantage for cap"
dude for the perameters of this fight, logan can't use his claws...why is this hard to understand? and wolverine can heal hella fast...very very very fast infact...but not instantly....his healing factor begins repairing damage instantly but it doesn't instantly heal him....
see where I'm coming from is this: if cap can stalemate wolvie while wolverine's using his deadliest weapons...than cap has a good chance of beating wollverine when wolverine's without them.
"what part of wrong is reasonable? What part of thought out but based on fallacy is reasonable? Hmm Jinzin?"
dude i don't want to get into a semantic argument about it....he had a few wrong points...but his overall thesis I agree with...and he used some reasonable and understandible explinations to get there....it was just a compliment stop playing devil's advocate just to provoke me because you don't like me...it's just rude....
"And you want cap to wear wolverine out...because wolverine doesn't get to eat steaks? LMAO. So where is cap getting his energy from? Cap will wear down first...this isn't cap vs batman. It's cap vs wolverine, Wolvie has the advantage in endurance"
I'm saying cap has a weapon that he can use to wear down wolverine's healing factor and the fighting skills to evade deflect and negate wolverine's attacks.....wolverine will tire first if his healing factor has to be put to good use....other than that their the same....but due to caps better fighting ability and weapon at the same time....wolverine will go down first in stamina....yeah one could effectively argue that all wolverine has to do is stand back for a few seconds and let his healing factor make him all better...but once again I'm arguing for the long run...considering both characters are vastly adept at h2h an nearly equal....I don't think that's such a horrible assumption that this battle could drag on...esp...when wolvie is deprived of his best offensive weapons.......
I have no problem with you and I'm not playing devil's advocate. Everything he said in his post was wrong...what were his good points? Wolverine's healing factor not being instant? Check out new avengers 5 or almost any other recent comic. His spiel about "acid, i think that's what it is" when he didn't even know about lactic acid? What was good? I'll tell you...to a misinformed person it sounds like valid argument, but to any informed person it makes absolutely no sense.
I have no problem w/ you and I'm not trying to provoke you. I am merely pointing out how you are utterly and completely wrong. I'm sorry if that aggrivates you.
Your argument is now taking shape....describing how Captain america can devise a strategy to hide behind his shield in an attempt to wear wolverine out(Actually you probably didn't even think of that, and now I've summed up in words what you were kind of thinking). Aren't you glad we got into this discussion so now the scenario you couldn't quite put ur finger on has been put into words?
Either way dude, when you're wrong you're wrong, when you're right you're right. If you give credit to a post that makes no sense, I'm gonna knock ur comment. If you give a good argument, I'm gonna acknowledge it. No need to get frustrated and assume people are out to get you...I was only out to get your posts because they were WRONG.
Originally posted by jinzin
"what part of wrong is reasonable? What part of thought out but based on fallacy is reasonable? Hmm Jinzin?"dude i don't want to get into a semantic argument about it....he had a few wrong points...but his overall thesis I agree with...and he used some reasonable and understandible explinations to get there....it was just a compliment stop playing devil's advocate just to provoke me because you don't like me...it's just rude....
"And you want cap to wear wolverine out...because wolverine doesn't get to eat steaks? LMAO. So where is cap getting his energy from? Cap will wear down first...this isn't cap vs batman. It's cap vs wolverine, Wolvie has the advantage in endurance"
I'm saying cap has a weapon that he can use to wear down wolverine's healing factor and the fighting skills to evade deflect and negate wolverine's attacks.....wolverine will tire first if his healing factor has to be put to good use....other than that their the same....but due to caps better fighting ability and weapon at the same time....wolverine will go down first in stamina....yeah one could effectively argue that all wolverine has to do is stand back for a few seconds and let his healing factor make him all better...but once again I'm arguing for the long run...considering both characters are vastly adept at h2h an nearly equal....I don't think that's such a horrible assumption that this battle could drag on...esp...when wolvie is deprived of his best offensive weapons.......
Fine. captain america is the man, he ain't losin to no stinkin mutie. He's captain america.
Wolverine don't stand a chance, it dont' matter how many martial arts he's trained him, cap will wear him down cuz he ain't got no steaks to eat and cap will pinch him in da special nerve dat will knock him out...he can't heal from that. Oh n cap is all diesel cuz he don't make no acid that tires his muscles. He's cap, wolvie that stinkin mutie is done
Originally posted by colossus17
dammit .....i am getting tired of scientific logic.....we need some "fanboy" logic here.....
"Wolverine's claws are irrelevant in this fight for the most part. His claws can't do more to Cap's shield than scratch the paint and Cap can easily block Wolverine's swings. But anyway..."
this wasn't wrong because.....that's how the fight has been layed out..
"In addition to making Steve the perfect physical specimen of the human race, it also eliminated the excessive build-up of acid in his muscles. When a muscle exerts itself, it starts creating this substance (I believe it's an acid) that starts to break the muscle down or somesuch. The body naturally removes this acid overtime, but if the acid builds up faster than the body can remove it, the muscle becomes tired. With the removal of this acid, theoretically, Cap's muscles virtually cannot become tired, giving him amazing endurance."
this again.....somewhat vague....not really wrong...this is exactly how captain america's serum has been described in the comics...in terms of what it does and allows cap to do....don't blame him cause you disagree with something that' marvel's produced...
"True, he can. But if you're referencing to his healing factor, it's capable of becoming overtaxed. Wolverine doesn't heal in two seconds; I've seen him down and knocked unconscious enough times. Cap doesn't have to kill Logan to beat him. But this IS where Wolverine's going to truly give Cap trouble, especially if he can't use his claws."
again....this isn't wrong based on my theory which is what I assumed that wonderer was going with.....wolverine's healing factor can become overtaxed...it would just take either a lot of damage or a lot of time to do so.......but wolvies healig factor can only help him so much when cap starts using nerve clusters and pressure points to his advantage...
"So?"
this is about the least valid part of his post.
"Nope. Wolverine's adamantium skeleton puts him at the human maximum. Captain America's super soldier serum put him at the human maximum. So they're equal in terms of raw, brute strength.
Cap's also a much better strategist, the leader whereas Wolverine is always the follower. He doesn't think; he fights and (sometimes) kills. If anything, Cap could out-think Wolverine and apparently it works for Batman."
this isn't wrong either......technically anyways.....originally, cap was written to be stronger than wolverine physically....but as I said in the past decade or so wolverine has had much more impressive physical feats of strength. cap out thinking wolvie isn't wrong either....cap is more than capible....
"He could. Maybe he wouldn't, just as Wolverine could beat Captain America. But I think he wouldn't, especially if this is Ultimate Cap. But then we roll into a whole 'nother ball-game."
this.....an opinion....how is this wrong?
"Your argument is now taking shape....describing how Captain america can devise a strategy to hide behind his shield in an attempt to wear wolverine out(Actually you probably didn't even think of that, and now I've summed up in words what you were kind of thinking). Aren't you glad we got into this discussion so now the scenario you couldn't quite put ur finger on has been put into words?"
that was kinda the point of my post...sorry if I have trouble conveying my thought about said matter.....
"No need to get frustrated and assume people are out to get you"
well excuse me.....but wasn't it you who called me a dumbass not but 2 weeks ago for apparently no reason in a thread that didn't even concern me?