Spiderman vs. Captain America/Daredevil/Wolverine

Started by brainchild81244 pages

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
On the other hand, you have Cap, the greatest leader in the MU, leading two guys, while he fully understands there capabilities. To say that Spidey can draw these three into single confrontations, is an indirect admission to the fact that he can't take all three, but it is also saying that Cap is not a good leader.
WTF? "Indirect admission" my foot! (Indirect admission my a$$! just didn't sound good🙂)So I guess they'd all be standing together as uncomfortably close as possible and Spidey's just supposed to come in like some idiot doing the windmill attack? Spidey's somehow supposed to KO all 3 @the same time w/a single punch? This is nothing against Cap. Cap is 1 of my 2 favorite leaders. (Cyclops being the other) Spidey's best chance IS to separate them into very short one-on-one attacks. Thus eventually beating ALL 3. It's honestly what most reasonably powerful guys with a brain would try to do. DS didn't throw one single punch that KOed the leaguers he made look bad. ( I still think that fight should've been DS beating the Hell outta Hawkman and some other leaguer that was corny and weak).

Originally posted by who?-kid
Fallace all you want, but no way a human being can take a full punch of a not-holding back SM.

Or is a skull harder than steel ?

(your skull maybe 😛 )

Fallacy of exclusion and Ad hominem.

Originally posted by jinzin
oh and cresh good job man I am uber impressed you are totally kicking ass.....it's like you get better at the whole debating thing every day....

Maybe one day he'll be on your level...but I doubt it. I like discussing things more with those who show at least SOME respect and don't fling labels on anyone who doesn't see eye to eye with them.

I would think that I'd have to say something like Spidey beats Hulk or Superman to be considered a fanboy instead of a fan.

As far as debating goes, it's funny how there are NO parameters set for this fight and anytime anyone assumes anything they're called a boyfan or whatever.

I'm a fan of many things, and friendly debate about comic characters is one of them. Spidey's my favorite but I'm not going to say that I think he could win when I know he stands no chance.

He stands a good chance against the trio and if you let me know where they're fighting I'll tell you why.

And without using a lot of jargon. 😮‍💨

Originally posted by jinzin
okay you honestly think wolverine fights at his best 99% of the time? and yet you think you know something about the trio.........

Well I've only seen him get embarrassed once and that was in that fight in the secret wars. I can honestly say that I don't remember wolverine being outmatched by anyone who wasn't very much his superior. Am I incorrect? Of course he isn't at his best 99% of the time but he has definitely been over dramatized like any popular character including Spider-man. Spidey has luck that is unrealistic and wolverine survives and retains conscious unrealistically.

If it weren't for the necessity of dramatics and cliffhangers they would both be dead. But it's a comic book so it's written so that heroes rarely ever die. A comic is a mix of drama and sci-fi and very similar to a soap opera.

My whole argument is based off of the removal of dramatics.....for example I would never say that Spidey can beat Firelord in this forum because without dramatics he can't, simple as that. I like the dramatics but they stand out plain as day if you care to look for them and without the drama most of the heroes are dead, especially wolverine and Spidey.

The secret wars fight was dramatized and made Spidey look good.....But I wouldn't take that and say that Spidey can beat collossus, Storm and Rouge by himself.

The trio however doesn't have anywhere near that amount of power at their disposal and 2 of them are as fragile as scarecrows to Spidey if he's not holding back..

Cap took a punch from the hulk once and broke the telephone pole behind him with his back....his internal organs weren't damaged and he recieved no broken bones...A pure impossibilty. Dramatically he was ok, realistically he would ride in the ambulance from hemorrhaging because an impact hard enough to crack a telephone pole would be disastrous to any human beings body. Remove drama and introduce common sense and Cap and DD are extremely skilled humans with no more durability than the strongest human.

Wolverine and Spider-man could very well exist realistically if the reasons are simply supernatural and aren't scientific at all. I want a discussion that's bias free believe it or not and that's why I prefer a realistic perspective rather than one based on complete fantasy and nothing else. The latter makes reaching a conclusion difficult because the stats DO change quite a bit depending on the artist or writer and not everyone has a vast collection of comics to refer to.

Stats give you something to go on at least and I won't ignore them because that's how I can tell whether or not the story is believable. Given firelords stats Spidey couldn't beat him on THIS FORUM.
Given wolverine's stats his brain CAN heal up but is not protected by superhuman durability. Common sense tells me that if his head is hit hard enough his brain can take damage that requires TIME to heal..

Common sense also tells me that Spidey will die if he get's gutted so he should use his common sense and be determined to web wolverine up and if at first he doesn't succeed try try again. Cap and DD wouldn't be able to free wolverine from being glued up completely, and I've already stated that I don't believe that Cap and DD have what it takes to down Spidey while he's composed and determined.

And to Creshosk I'd like to say that you have debated with the skill of politician... You've focused on many points that have already been covered and ignored only a few things of importance...like the question

how?

I've never recieved a degree but I at least attempted a scenario. It was improbable and didn't fly but I gave it a shot because I'm not just jumping in the Spidey bandwagon, and the same can be said for many Spidey supporters.

Why don't you try making a scenario? I expect another excuse about how everyone's so biased that it would be a waste of your time. That's a cop out man, and it makes it seem like you don't know HOW they could win, you just KNOW they would and anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously an ignorant fanboy.

What outstanding debate skills! 🙄

😮‍💨

Originally posted by The MISTER
And to Creshosk I'd like to say that you have debated with the skill of politician... You've focused on many points that have already been covered and ignored only a few things of importance...like the question

how?

I've never recieved a degree but I at least attempted a scenario. It was improbable and didn't fly but I gave it a shot because I'm not just jumping in the Spidey bandwagon, and the same can be said for many Spidey supporters.

Why don't you try making a scenario? I expect another excuse about how everyone's so biased that it would be a waste of your time. That's a cop out man, and it makes it seem like you don't know HOW they could win, you just KNOW they would and anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously an ignorant fanboy.

What outstanding debate skills! 🙄

😮‍💨

Points that keep being brought up like they weren't covered, mostly by people who's reading skills and comprehnsion ability has been shown to be nothing more than those of real fanboy quality.

No, it's not people that disagree with me are fanboys, it's people that keep giving attributes to a character that they don't have just to make them win that are fanboys.

An no scenerio for you. I still think that it'd be a waste of time, as it'd still fall on deaf ears.

Cres you really oughta give the scenario thing a try. It'll be fun.

Originally posted by brainchild81
Cres you really oughta give the scenario thing a try. It'll be fun.
That's the problem, I do not think that it'd be fun to spend time devising a scenerio for no reason, particularly when it would serve no purpose.

again mister...you debate semantics.......dramatics? man if you don't like the way comic books are dramaticised maybe you shouldn't read them but go out and make your own instead......the fact is spiderman nor wolverine are supernatural in origin.....if you're debating a "WHAT IF" point such as that....it makes my scans from the what if comics no less credible; it goes full circle....you simply can't debate realism compared to characters that live in a world where no such limits exist..... that said.... what's considered realism fom the perspective of captain america, daredevil, and wolverine, and spiderman is derived from their life expreiences.....if you asked spiderman whether or not he could hold off the juggernaught, he would probably tell you he could because he's done it a couple of times (lucky or not)....if you asked wolverine if he could take on the hulk he would say yes because he's done it with incredible results considering, on 10 or 11 seperate occasions.... if you asked daredevil if he could takes shots from doctor octopus he would say yes because he's done so....if you asked captain america if he could stand up to ultron by himself he would tell you he would probably be able to do it since he's done so before.....none of these characters would give you some answer along the lines of it's an impossibility..... all of these feats are an impossibility to the world that both you and I live in.....and according to things as simple as the stats these should never, ever have even occured....but these characters would never give you an anser along the lines of these feats being an impossibility.....because to these characters it's not.....they are not bound by realism hence why they exist at all.....again I defer to cresh's previous argument of picking and choosing what aspects of a subject should or should not be taken into consideration based on how it reflects the strengths and weaknesses of a particular character....no offense to you...but it truley is hipocritical to do so (pick and choose the aspects I mean).

for instance, you (not you specifically mister, I'm using the term "you" as a generalality) want to debate realism, however you do not want to APPLY realism to all the aspects of each given character... only those aspects that benefit your argument....

If we apply realism to this debate.................as chreshock's already so painfully pointed out to everyone on multiple occasions...spidey simply and utterly doesn't exist, he's either a regular guy who got sick from a spiderbite or a regular guy who didn't get sick because said spider died of radiation poisioning....either way no super powers....

daredevil still exists but his abilities are no where near as impressive...
wolverine being a mutant....probably looks like the kid from deliverence and had no super powers whatsoever....
and captain america would probably just be a smart guy on steroids with standard body armor and a gun instead of a sheild....

but we all know that doesn't bode well with spiderman fans...so it was then argued that realism should only begin to apply to the characters after their origins have been established.....okay for the arguments sake lets give you that one.....

now...everybody's saying that realistically healing factor or not logan would get knocked out by spiderman punches because his healing factor can't compensate for his brain sloshin around in his skull.....(now I've already given multiple occasions where wolverine's been hit by harder faster and more powerful things, fists, etc and survived no problem....as have others, countless others...and I also gave a rather logical explination for how his healing factor probably compensated for his earlier KO's from the likes of sasquatch, eradicator, etc by giving him something reminiscent of homer simpson syndrome as it's not out of his healing factor's abilities to do so, but okay lets play the realism game).

Now this is gonna be repeditive and I apologize.....both for that and the length of this muthafuca but some of these things simply have to be said...again........and again (i guess 😕 )

the argument we the trio supporters are being presented with is that in the real world these guys would die or be seriously injured by spiderman's overall strength factor because their feats of durability mean nothing when storywriting is taken out of the equation and all that's left is the realism that's being fought so hard to be kept here....
this would imply that despite wolverine's mutant physiology he still has human aspects such as the "wolverine getting a concussion" argument would suggest. Another argument was that due to spidermans superhuman physiology and the strength factors of the trio, spiderman wouldn't even be affectef by their blows....

Now my first counter to this was from real life, it being: martial artists are fully capible of producing up to and including 2 thousand pounds of pressure per square inch in a given blow (again...more force than produced in a car wreck)....now we all know that a car wreck has enough force in it to crush a human skull....yet when a similar kick was used against a martial artists ribs in the same research...the ribs did not break. Ribs are some of the weekest bones on the human body, weaker than a human skull, even a strong cough can break a rib or two at any given time, yet this martial artist was able to whether the blow and simply stand up after it occured as if he was fine, because he was fine....But how? how in the real world would a mans ribcage whether a blow that has more exursion force than produced in a car wreck?......this lead me to my next point which was that martial artists have bones which through years of training become a "living armor" if you will.....almost fists of steel capible of sending blows through cement, a 6 foot TALL slab of ice.....punch holes through bricks with single inger strikes....and break 5 tied up baseball bats over their shins.....they are able to do this with little concentration, because over the years of training the bones themselves develop calcium deposits the bones become stronger, denser. The cartalidge that acts as a cusion for the bone's impact becomes harder as well allowing for more power with less chance of injury.....and finally the actuall muscle tissue (not scar tissue which gives the appearance of bulk but actuall mucle fibers and tendons and ligaments) become stronger and tighter allowing for a harder body to take almost as much punishment as it can dish out..... now these tests were done by men of relatively smaller builds....they were nowhere near the strength speed skill and experience of the trio....factor those four aspects into that realism and these guys are far more than your average human off the streets...for more powerful and far more durable......

so then the question is no longer will they even affect spidey with blows......it is now how well can spiderman stand up to a concentrated car wreck.

anyways.....back to the point (sorry for the hella long tangent there), we have had to try and dispute the human characteristics of out characters in a real world scenario while spiderman still retains his spiderman physiology but that's where the fallacy begins to rear it's ugly head....

you see, in spite of parkers hyped up spider physiology there are still aspects about him that are human as well.... if wolverine's getting concussions or KOed dispite his feats then spiderman has to give in to his real world human characteristics as well......In the real world....spiderman's acheles heal so to speak is his bones....even though a spider bite gave him his superpowers and changed his musclar build and reaction time etc...his bones would not be subject to change.... spiderman's done density would not be changed or hardened in anyway due to a radioactive spider bite even if everything else was.....the only thing that can change bone density in such a manner is exaclt how I just described above....through trauma basically....the meaning? spiderman can't hit logan in the head without breaking everybone in his hand, if his bones are no longer able to sustain such hard material he can't back the power of his muscles for a punch...making them pretty much useless against wolverine.....
also due to his realistic anatomy.....spiderman's semi-superior speed will fall useless to spiderman very quickly due to the same reason's that "doubled speed" had to be used so quickly for taskmaster (i.e. every bone shattering in his body due to the force used to move them)...so much for spider speed....
that said.....spiderman can only move fast for so long (which is not long at all) fatigue will make his spider sense fairly useless as well...

ain't realism a *****? 😄

okay....now on to stats...the magical stats....while we all know how realiable they are (wink wink)...once again there are plenty of fallacies at play here.....for instance....it is assumed that spiderman's superior speed is 15 times faster than anyone else here....spiderman was a scrawny little guy when he was bitten 15 times faster than that isn't that much faster than a PEAK human's speed....apparently the stats agree.....
while spiderman is in the low percentile (about 40%) of the speed category and while he is fast.... all three of these heroes are only one notch below him, making spiderman only about 10 to 12 % faster than them. That's not much. We all know that spiderman's got the edge in strength here that's not debateable.
agility obviously goes to spiderman again...while wolverine and daredevil only trail behind spiderman a small amount in acutal agility...it is spiderman's comparitive muslce strength that gives him the advantage here....wolverine and daredevil and the cap for that matter shoule be able to go par with spidey's actually grounded agility...but they can't spring as high or fast for airborn maneuvers because of their strength levels.... obviously jumping high is going to be a defensive move if spidey has to use it.....otherwise this fight stays on the ground where all these guys have comparible agility....
intelligence is pretty solid on both sides but it tips in the trios favor where it counts.... while peter's a smart cookie and quick witted...matty matt is about his level of intelligence, aside from that the trio is the side with two warriors who are intelligent in terms of strategical and combative thinking.... spiderman ability to think on the fly helps him very little against three well established superheroes who are able to do the same just as well as he can.....the only BIG difference, is that captain america can think on the fly but 4 steps in advance....he's a master tactician like deathstroke and is able to orchestrate teams in combative situations as easily as a thought.....
mental abilities are pretty even on both sides as well...while spiderman's spider sense helps to detect danger as or before it comes so can daredevil's...the guy can sense parker coming before parker even begins to move......everyone thought parker would be in some form of blinding superspeed to negate this but being only 12% faster than DD isn't going to help him a whole lot when dd can literally anticipate his everymove before he makes it.....what makes spidey appear sooooooo fast is his precog allows him to react faster than a noraml human would...but his movements aren't anywhere near as instantanious as we may be lead to believe by certain fans.....spiderman's obviously totally outclassed in fighting ability by all three of these fighters.... and energy attacks are not an issue here...unless you consider caps energy sheild an energy projection of sorts....the fact is...as mercilous pointed out earlier...there are a ton of different factors that aren't calculated into the most obvious stats and they keep getting missed but as far as obvious stats go spiderman's superior strength doesn't mean anything to wolverine....period. doesn't mean much to dd if he can hit him either...the only real threat it presents is to captain america who has a shield to hide behind....spiderman's "superior" speed is only a slight advantage and spiderman run much more a chance of slowing down due to fatigue than the trio does......intelligence isn't his voctory to claim, neither is fighting ability....agility goes to him but it's only uselful in defensive maneuvers...while on the ground it's close to even (not sure if I conveyed that right...oh well the hell with it). the only energy weapon is on the trio's team.... and the mental powers are even but while dd only has to worry about 1 opponents spidey has to worry about three........face it despite his strength the stats don't help him much here anyways.......including all the other aspects that haven't been calculated into the obvious stats.....spiderman once again is losing this fight....

this only leaves us with comic book spidey........in which case...the results....speak for themselves....

Damn fine arguement, damn fine...

Here's a perspective from me one why stats fail. If you're a better fighter, you make more out of your strength. If you're a better tactician, you get more out of what you have. Stats in no way represent this and so are flawed.

Potential is no tool for an arguement. Proven results are. Jubilee COULD become extremely powerful (maybe not the best example,) but no one argues in her favor on something she theoretically could do, It's absurd.

Yep, if you are a good fighter you do not even need half or all of your strength to incapacitate someone, but against overwhelming physicality, you sure don't need 1/10 of your strength to incapacitate someone.

Well, I already said I think the trio would win. That's based on stats too.

Cumulatively speaking, while none of them alone would match up to Spiderman statwise, putting them all together adds up all their current stats. Not to mention that fact that 3v1 inately tips the odds in their favor.

You can't compare Spiderman's agility to each of theirs individually if they are all attacking simotaneously.

Yep and the 3v1 one doesnt really factor since they are ground fighters with no reliable projectiles against him.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Yep and the 3v1 one doesnt really factor since they are ground fighters with no reliable projectiles against him.

Don't forget Wolverine can jump real high ! He does that all the time, didn't you notice ?

Pick up a comic and there he is, jumping and bouncing like a rabbit on steroids . 😆

Originally posted by who?-kid
Don't forget Wolverine can jump real high ! He does that all the time, didn't you notice ?

Pick up a comic and there he is, jumping and bouncing like a rabbit on steroids . 😆

Sarcasm noted.

You mean like in his fights with the hulk, right?

I actually JUST read a really good comic with spidy in it, they switched bodies and Spidey had tried to apprehend bank roobers, a officer asks him to put his hands in the air, Peter accicdentally Sets off Wolvie's claws, they taser wolvie but he is down for a sec and as he goes into the cop car under arrest, logan causes a distraction and peter tries to run and jump away, but is tasered and wishes he were in his faster body.

In another part, the ultimates: Captain America, Iron Man ( Who was shot down, Thor, and some guy I'm not familiar with but has shades were having serious trouble with a guy with armor like iron man's and was part zombie. Anyway peter comes in and kicks him in the head, ko's him, and the Ulitmates take him away. Peter gets no credit. A little off topic I know , but it shows that spidey fights on his on with the efficiency of a team, and thinks his way from overwhelming odds freqeuntly.

Cresh don't be so hard on him.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
I actually JUST read a really good comic with spidy in it, they switched bodies and Spidey had tried to apprehend bank roobers, a officer asks him to put his hands in the air, Peter accicdentally Sets off Wolvie's claws, they taser wolvie but he is down for a sec and as he goes into the cop car under arrest, logan causes a distraction and peter tries to run and jump away, but is tasered and wishes he were in his faster body.
If you're unsed to a body'd build and abilities its natural to have problems adapting to it.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
In another part, the ultimates: Captain America, Iron Man ( Who was shot down, Thor, and some guy I'm not familiar with but has shades were having serious trouble with a guy with armor like iron man's and was part zombie. Anyway peter comes in and kicks him in the head, ko's him, and the Ulitmates take him away. Peter gets no credit. A little off topic I know , but it shows that spidey fights on his on with the efficiency of a team, and thinks his way from overwhelming odds freqeuntly.
That's ultimate though not 616.

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
Cresh don't be so hard on him.
On who?

yes who kid

Originally posted by CorderaMitchell
who kid
Why?

You keep trying to make him eat his words