Spiderman vs. Captain America/Daredevil/Wolverine

Started by Wanderer259244 pages
You said yank as in pull him to you, if he is on my way to me, and I change the direction, the inertia is still intact, meaning he would fly in that direction, that was my point.

But how would you change the direction without running to either side to make the line go taut again? If he's rushing towards Spidey, the line's slack will keep increasing. If Spidey stands in one spot and moves his arm that way or this way, it'll do nothing but move the bit of string Spidey has in his hand.

I have, however, made a miscalculation in distance here, but that makes my point all the more valid. At long distance, his web-shooters not only could be dodged, but they also lose their ability to move in a straight line at 60 feet, which according to you, is a pretty short amount of distance. Hell, all three of the trio could clear 20 yards relatively easily just by running, if not by leaping as well. If Spidey decides to go long-range, or to reiterate an earilier used example, stand on top of a building and rain webbing down on his opponents, he'd hit nothing, as his web-lines simply aren't that accurate.

Okay I'm back..I felt compelled to respond to this post...

Originally posted by Wanderer259
I almost whole-heartidly agree. If I were Cap or DD, I'd rather hold onto my weapons, as they're admittedly more effective at short-medium range.

True. Also, keep in mind that the wallcrawler generally fights from a distance when attacking opponents, as opposed to the Trio who generally accustomed to battles involving close-h2h combat. The Trio would be at a disadvantage if they attempted to fight in a "ranged attack" style, which is a style that SM is very experienced in.


I'm not being far-fetched, as this is a technique Cap employs on a regular basis - ricochet trick-shots ala Hawkeye with an arrow. Have you really never seen this done?

I've seen him constitently throw the shield, however, I've never seen him consistently throw it at an object and have it return to him with pinpoint accuracy. At best I would say that it is possible under normal circumstances for it to land somewhere in the general area of where the Captain is standing.

Getting the shield at that point would definately be an obstacle, seeing as how it is the Captain's main line of defense, and he would be very open to an attack upon himself if he attempted to retrieve it.

This is why it is highly improbable for Captain/DD to quickly relinquish their first line of offense against an opponent whose abilities are known to physically rival their own. Particularly in the areas of speed, reflexes, strength, and agility. I'm sure the great tactical mind of Captain A would realize that SM could easily evade most of their ranged attacks, and as you put it, their weapons would be more effective at "short-medium range", or as a means of defense. And I'm sure that the good Ol tactical mind of Captain A knows, that all it will take is one stray upulled punch from the webslinger..to take both him and the "Man without fear" completely out of the fray.


Whether or not the shield will 'pose a significant danger to Spidey' isn't an issue here, as his spider-sense picks up on everything, including tosses snowballs. If Peter, in his flawed, human-like discretion, decides that whatever he's feeling isn't worth dodging, he'll get winged in the head by a flying adamantium shield.

That's inaccurate. The Spider sense doesn't pick up everything..only things that pose the wall crawler some type of "danger." I'm not sure if snowballs would qualify as such.


Your desert scenario already made things worse against the trio.

To be honest I actually thought it would make it easier, seeing as how SM would not have any walls or buildings to stick to. However, you are more than welcome to give whatever setting you desire, and I'll incorporate it into any of my arguments that follow.


I've never seen him tag the goblin glider when it wasn't right there flying by. Bear in mind, a gigantic flying gargoyle, a plane, and a car are all much bigger, much less maneuverable targets than three nimble heroes.

Bigger yes, less maneuverable..no. The Gobin Glider moves at roughly 300 mph..and is highly maneuverable.


I'm not debating whether or not Logan can be hit. At a closer distance, Spider-Man very well can do so. However, at the distance you suggest, of 60 feet, I think he'll have a harder time.

Refer to the response above. I doubt that he will have any more difficulty snagging Wolverine/DD/or Cap than he would the Glider.


The question wasn't whether or not Spidey will be hit. It's whether or not he'll be fast enough to tug someone and then dodge. In order to evade, his focus will have been broken, allowing his target to escape.

Depends on where he's at...if he's 60 feet away, and manages to snag someone, I would take a gander at saying he's fast enough to dodge. And as Cordera mentioned earlier, he could very well use the person who he's tugging on as a defensive/offensive device to block an incoming attack.


No, no, pay attention. He has snagged someone with a 60 foot-long web-line. He has never just 'tossed' a car into the air with a web-line before. Ever. Were DD snagged by a line, Spidey could only tug him forward.

Pardon me for being rude, but it seems like you are being a bit misleading with this one..

I've never seen him snag a car, but I've seen him snag some pretty heavy objects. Regardless, the implication wasn't that a car would be tossed into the air with the webline in this particular argument, but instead it was that a member of the Trio could be tossed into the air rather effortlessly, based on the fact that SM has has strength that enables him to lift ..Cars, Tanks, Boulders, building structures etc, etc, with is bare hands. I believe you knew that to begin with, however, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Still who is to say that he couldn't easily snag a car and toss it fairly effortlessly with a webline and lob it? The weblines are strong enough to hold a ton, which is about the weight of a compact car. It's quite probable that a car/boulder/ or similar heavy object could be lobbed effectively as a long range attack against the Trio.


At a 60 foot distance? How is Spider-man going to completely web up anyone with one or two lines?

Snag them with a web line from 60 ft, tug them toward himself, and then change the consistency of the webbing into that of a spray. This is logical and probable, and would be acceptable under the "any means necessary" clause stipulated by the thread originator. :wink:


Better explained. Except that's as open to interpretation as Cap being 'faster on the draw' with tactical thinking.

Not necessarily, Both characters have proven the ability to be "quick on the draw" with tactical thinking during extenuating circumstances. I'd say SM does a better job thinking on the fly being a solo character, and Cap does better job thinking on the fly when working with a team. However unlike physical stats, tactical thinking can not be accurately measured or defined, seeing how it is an abstract concept.


At that great a distance? It's much harder. And if they are hit, all Spidey can do is yank or drag them towards him. He cannot toss them to either side nor jerk them up into the air. The web-line is similar to a steel cable, but not to a steel beam - the line is simply far too long. Not to mention, at that great of a distance, he cannot completely web anyone up.

If he's strong enough to lift a car over his head with his hands, then I'd take a stab at saying he is strong enough to lift a 200 lb man of the ground with a webline..

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Bigger yes, less maneuverable..no. The Gobin Glider moves at roughly 300 mph..and is highly maneuverable.
Has he snagged that at 60 feet before?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Snag them with a web line from 60 ft, tug them toward himself, and then change the consistency of the webbing into that of a spray. This is logical and probable, and would be acceptable under the "any means necessary" clause stipulated by the thread originator. :wink:

A) There is the sixty feet thing to consider, and unlike a car they would be resisting and would try to cut the line.

b) Can he change consistency with the organic webbing?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
If he's strong enough to lift a car over his head with his hands, then I'd take a stab at saying he is strong enough to lift a 200 lb man of the ground with a webline..
At 60 feet?

That would require a pretty strong upward tug . . but due to the distence the effort would move along the line like a wave. . . and they could probably cut themselves free before it got to them. . . and even if they couldn't it would only go as high as spiderman was standing . . . the problem is the elasticity of the webbing. . .it makes it more like a rope than a stiff beam, or something.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
True. But can is it logical to assume that the icon Trio will react quickly enough to someone who is several times faster than themselves, has a reaction time up to 30 times greater, and has a the ability to predict when they are going to attack?

Several times faster? prove it. 12% faster. Predict? Spidersenses are not precog. Incredibly fast yes, before it happens no. You've decided to pump up Spiderman for this fight or have been mislead into beleiving that is actually how spiderman is.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Webbed up Wolverine

And of course, you left out how he willingly stayed in that webbing and when he decided it was worth tearing his skin for he got out quite easily.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Okay lets simplify things a bit by having you answer a few questions.

Would you agree that spider man has demonstrated strength that enables him to pick up heavy objects like boulders, cars, trucks, tanks, building structures, etc..etc?

Not tanks, average weight of a tank is over 50 tons, so it seems you've built Spidey up past his ability again.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Are Cap/Wolvie/Daredevil heavier than cars, trains, and large building structures?

That's a stupid question, it deserves no better response than this.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Has SM demonstrated the ability to to snag moving objects such as trains, cars, airplanes, and goblin gliders, with his webbing?

Sure.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
If your answer to any of these questions is "no"..we might as well stop right here, because you will have essentially proved yourself to be a Cap/Wolvie/DD fanboy.

And giving you the benifit of the doubt, you have proven yourself sadly misinformed.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
However if your answers are yes..then I'll assume you have enough common sense to come to your own conclusions as to the plausibility of the webline battle "tactics" actually working.

Not likely, there's a difference between objects moving on a linier path and a threatening actively defending opponent, a distinction you have chosen to neglect.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
*FYI On multiple occasions, the wallcrawler has managed to snag and throw Puma, Green Goblin, Wolverine, Morbius, and countless others with the webline.

With what efficiency?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Please give examples of when these three have worked together effectively as a team in a random battle, uninhibited by morals, and going for the kill against an opponent who is 20-30 times stronger, can sense each of their attacks, many times faster, has a reaction time 30-40 times greater, and has a strong cable-like substance that can be fired from a distance at them at will.

Cap and Wolvie have worked together killing nazi's. DD and Cap have worked together. Wolvie and DD have worked together. Uninhibited by morals? That's not part of there character, which is also something you've forgotten. As for the rest of this statement it has no bearing in reality.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
If you can give me an example of a scenario such as this happening involving the Trio, and of tactics that were used to taking down this opponent, then I might consider your argument to be plausible...🙄

Oh I see you think Cap has never lead others in random style encounter. such bafoonery is not worth debating.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
That's just an opinion.

And it is at the very least as valid if not moreso than yours.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Well I guess that says it all about Cap's shield and DD's Billy Club being effective "long range weapons."

Damb Merc you really got me in the mood with those last couple of arguments. They were really great. You consistently amaze me with your debating skills. Your seem to be getting better and better!! Gotta say..I'm really impressed!! 🙄 😆 :laugh

Funny, the only thing you've proven is that you know how to use smileys, good for you.

cap led all 3 of these guys including spiderman in secret war....wtf?

Originally posted by whobdamandog

Full description of what happened in the pic above:

MK Knights Spider Man. Training session..SM easily evades Wolverine's initial attack, snags him with the webbing and throws him up against the wall. He does not attempt to completely web up and fully incapicitate him, which could have easily been done, but seeing as how this is only a TRAINING SESSION..I guess Peter felt it wasn't necessary.

This is your full description? Even though you left out how Wolvie was breaking free of the webbing before it adhered to him?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
And before someone reposts the next page, I will go ahead and do it for you. Wolverine manages to "cut" his way out of the webbing. A cocky wide open SM lunges at Wolverine. Seeing as how this was a TRAINING SESSION, SM probably carelessly ignores his Spider sense as he has done countless times, which allows Wolverine to get a stab in...

Sure, it's because it was a "training session" even though he's tagged them in ALL of there encounters.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Several times faster? prove it. 12% faster. Predict? Spidersenses are not precog. Incredibly fast yes, before it happens no. You've decided to pump up Spiderman for this fight or have been mislead into beleiving that is actually how spiderman is.
To be fair spidersnese is a form of precog even if it's not a true precog.

It warns him of danger before he's hurt, een if it doesn't tell him exactly what's going on. . .

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
This is your full description? Even though you left out how Wolvie was breaking free of the webbing before it adhered to him?
And lets not forget that Spiderman was attempting to web him up more. (look behind the "Now that was funny" speech balloon.)

Originally posted by Creshosk
And lets not forget that Spiderman was attempting to web him up more. (look behind the "Now that was funny" speech balloon.)

also look at the damned pic of him getting stabbed he's still shooting off webbing....

and whob seemse to think he's lunging AT wolverine, in spite of the fact that his balance, body, and momentum all seem to be heading towards the left of the page... 🙄 clearly when he's in a training session his spidersense just turns off... 🙄

Originally posted by jinzin
also look at the damned pic of him getting stabbed he's still shooting off webbing....

and whob seemse to think he's lunging AT wolverine, in spite of the fact that his balance, body, and momentum all seem to be heading towards the left of the page... 🙄 clearly when he's in a training session his spidersense just turns off... 🙄

I wonder if he still beleives that Wolverine was begging for his life.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I wonder if he still beleives that Wolverine was begging for his life.

🙄

Originally posted by jinzin
🙄

Which of course answers the question "what would there prior fights be like if Wolvie had unsheathed his claw?"

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Which of course answers the question "what would there prior fights be like if Wolvie had unsheathed his claw?"
I know how this thread is going to go now:

"but SM would have dodged cause his sidersense would have been stronger!"

Ignoring the cemetary fight where he was ignoring his spidersense again. . . It didn't have anything to do with Wolverine holding back and not actually trying to kill SM.

"Oh but it was a crossover!"

Also ignoring the fact that it was canon and effected continuity.

"Then it was PIS!"

With no explination this is just falling back on the "I don't like it, therefore it didn't happen" defense.

"Because it's outside of his described abilities!"

Being hypocritical to other places where they accept A spider-character doing feats that are outsiode of the abilities described in their profile.

"Characters can sometimes do things outside of their described abilities!"

So you mean that ALL characters? Or just the characters you favor?

"Not wolviegod, fanboy you think wolviegod can take on blah blah blah."

*sigh* 🙁

............

Originally posted by Creshosk
I know how this thread is going to go now:

"but SM would have dodged cause his sidersense would have been stronger!"

Ignoring the cemetary fight where he was ignoring his spidersense again. . . It didn't have anything to do with Wolverine holding back and not actually trying to kill SM.

"Oh but it was a crossover!"

Also ignoring the fact that it was canon and effected continuity.

"Then it was PIS!"

With no explination this is just falling back on the "I don't like it, therefore it didn't happen" defense.

"Because it's outside of his described abilities!"

Being hypocritical to other places where they accept A spider-character doing feats that are outsiode of the abilities described in their profile.

"Characters can sometimes do things outside of their described abilities!"

So you mean that ALL characters? Or just the characters you favor?

"Not wolviegod, fanboy you think wolviegod can take on blah blah blah."

*sigh* 🙁

hahahahhahaahhahahaha, yup.

still I'd like to go back to this.

Originally posted by Creshosk
To be fair spidersnese is a form of precog even if it's not a true precog.

It warns him of danger before he's hurt, een if it doesn't tell him exactly what's going on. . .

You say before, but let us say an effect was instantaneous or at least near instantaneous like the speed of light, would Spidey be warned? And if so, would he actually be able to do anything about it. Now I know, spidey can dodge lasers sure, but that usually involves someone or something aiming and firing. If he can sense a punch then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to sense it in that situation. But is there anything he could do against something that acted and thought at the speed of light? He's fought speedsters before, could he dodge without fail?

.............................................

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
You say before, but let us say an effect was instantaneous or at least near instantaneous like the speed of light, would Spidey be warned?
Before the effect took place if its in a small enough area, yes.

Massively large lasers he probably couldn't dodge. . bullets are small enough that he can get out of the way before the person fires. . that is before the bullet is triggered to leave where it was . . .

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
And if so, would he actually be able to do anything about it.
Depends on the size of the attack.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Now I know, spidey can dodge lasers sure, but that usually involves someone or something aiming and firing. If he can sense a punch then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to sense it in that situation.
Exactly.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
But is there anything he could do against something that acted and thought at the speed of light?
I wouldn't imagine that he'd be able to, no.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
He's fought speedsters before, could he dodge without fail?
Well speed of light as in flash is different than quicksilver. . .

He might be warned far enough in advance that he could get out of the way of Quicksilver(running attack once, that if they miss they run passed). . but I don't know if he could dodge multiple high speed attacks. . . I imagine that the spidersense might not be of much help there. . . as the direction of attack and severity would probably be really strong, but then again I'm not sure if bullets are speeed of sound.

Of course they say that he can't dodge the new Doc Ock . . . and I don't know if he moves as fast as bullets. . . of course then the tentacles ARE larger than bullets. . .

speed demon humilitaed spiderman..so no he can't quite keep up..he may be able to spring out of the way once or twice but then he gets pummpled by speedsters...or at least should...

Large calibre hand guns have muzzle velocities in excess of 1,200 ft per second. Large calibre rifles have muzzle velocities in excess of 3,000 ft per second. Even small calibre handguns travel around 800 ft. per second.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Before the effect took place if its in a small enough area, yes.

Massively large lasers he probably couldn't dodge. . bullets are small enough that he can get out of the way before the person fires. . that is before the bullet is triggered to leave where it was . . .

Depends on the size of the attack.

Exactly.

I wouldn't imagine that he'd be able to, no.

Well speed of light as in flash is different than quicksilver. . .

He might be warned far enough in advance that he could get out of the way of Quicksilver(running attack once, that if they miss they run passed). . but I don't know if he could dodge multiple high speed attacks. . . I imagine that the spidersense might not be of much help there. . . as the direction of attack and severity would probably be really strong, but then again I'm not sure if bullets are speeed of sound.

Of course they say that he can't dodge the new Doc Ock . . . and I don't know if he moves as fast as bullets. . . of course then the tentacles ARE larger than bullets. . .

Well then you get my point, to me "pre-cog" is too strong a word, It use to be spidey sense, then fan based infallable spidey sense, and now it's freaking "pre-cog".

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Large calibre hand guns have muzzle velocities in excess of 1,200 ft per second. Large calibre rifles have muzzle velocities in excess of 3,000 ft per second. Even small calibre handguns travel around 800 ft. per second.

Well then you get my point, to me "pre-cog" is too strong a word, It use to be spidey sense, then fan based infallable spidey sense, and now it's freaking "pre-cog".

he's gotta point...