Spiderman vs. Captain America/Daredevil/Wolverine

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Large calibre hand guns have muzzle velocities in excess of 1,200 ft per second. Large calibre rifles have muzzle velocities in excess of 3,000 ft per second. Even small calibre handguns travel around 800 ft. per second.

Spiderman uses his powers, Batman his skill. . . If you knew the things that batman knew (Angles, what a person is most likely to try, the time in between shots) and were as physically fit as he is. then you could probably "dodge bullets" as well as he can.

Dodging bullets has very little to do with actually dodging a bullet.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Well then you get my point, to me "pre-cog" is too strong a word, It use to be spidey sense, then fan based infallable spidey sense, and now it's freaking "pre-cog".

Originally posted by Creshosk
As I've said elsewhere dodging bullets is always dodging before they're fired so that the person misses.

Spiderman uses his powers, Batman his skill. . . If you knew the things that batman knew (Angles, what a person is most likely to try, the time in between shots) and were as physically fit as he is. then you could probably "dodge bullets" as well as he can.

Dodging bullets has very little to do with actually dodging a bullet.

It's a form of pre-cog in a technical sense since it gives a form of knowledge of danger before it happens. But it's not a true pre cog because you don't know EXACTLY what the danger is.

I completely agree with the first part...

But to me precognition is just that, "knowing before." While to my knowledge, it's alway been "knowing faster." As in, enhanced reflexes, which to my knowledge, is still what spidey-senses are.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
I completely agree with the first part...

But to me precognition is just that, "knowing before." While to my knowledge, it's alway been "knowing faster." As in, enhanced reflexes, which to my knowledge, is still what spidey-senses are.

for some reason a scene came to mind. . . technically "pre-cog" isn't that marvelous a thing, because by a literal defenition, a spy reorting knowledge of enemy battle plans is also a form of "knowing before". . as the general would "know before" the attack happened. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
That's the problem. It is technically "knowing before". . it's just that what is known is so limited its not a true pre-cog. But it is a form of pre-cog. . .

for some reason a scene came to mind. . . technically "pre-cog" isn't that marvelous a thing, because by a literal defenition, a spy reorting knowledge of enemy battle plans is also a form of "knowing before". . as the general would "know before" the attack happened. . .

Well that's actually a pretty good analagy, as the general wouldn't necessarily know what to do with that information.

But honestly, I just can't understand how enhanced reflexes adds up to a mystical like ability. With absolutley no sarcasm here, I'd like it explained to me.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Well that's actually a pretty good analagy, as the general wouldn't necessarily know what to do with that information.

But honestly, I just can't understand how enhanced reflexes adds up to a mystical like ability. With absolutley no sarcasm here, I'd like it explained to me.

This is probably one of those things you have to accept like the mutant X gene. . . I doubt there would ever be a way to explain a plot device like these to a degree where it is 100% feasable. because you encounter the problem that they simply don't exist in the real world.

Technically it is a reflex of someone with superhuman speed.

We too have reflexes that keep us from danger. It's a natural instinct for example to pull away from something that causes you pian like something that is hot. And you probably do this without thinking about it.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Technically they fudged it a little to produce the Spidersense, spider's don't really even have this. . they can sense air vibrations and due to this combined with the 8 eyes that they have, it was observed that its sometimes difficult to get a spider.

This is probably one of those things you have to accept like the mutant X gene. . . I doubt there would ever be a way to explain a plot device like these to a degree where it is 100% feasable. because you encounter the problem that they simply don't exist in the real world.

Technically it is a reflex of someone with superhuman speed.

We too have reflexes that keep us from danger. It's a natural instinct for example to pull away from something that causes you pian like something that is hot. And you probably do this without thinking about it.

Well that's fair enough, I prefer it when comics don't try to explain to much because it just usually ends up not being possible and quite often rediculous. It is a comic after all.

That's inaccurate. The Spider sense doesn't pick up everything..only things that pose the wall crawler some type of "danger." I'm not sure if snowballs would qualify as such.

It's picked up stuff like MJ playfully attempting to cover his eyes from behind.
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Cresh and Merc, here you go...

Spidey's spider-sense reacts to potential, immediate danger by giving him a 'buzz' at the base of his skull, acting at .003 seconds worth of a warning, which is usually enough time. It tells him the general direction of the danger, and by the intensity of the 'buzzing', the severity.

To give an example, let's say Cap is standing behind Spidey and decides he's going to throw a punch. Spidey won't receive a message saying Cap is going to throw a punch in the immediate future. What he will get is a buzzing feeling at the base of his skull .003 seconds before Cap's fist strikes the back of his head. It'll tell him that in .003 seconds, something will strike him from behind and it'll hurt this bad if it does. It's not pre-cog, as there has to be stimuli to react to - his Spider-Sense is a reaction, not a form of ESP. Of course, in the example I just gave, Spidey is fast enough to dodge Cap's fist.

I have to state, however, that the above is simply how it theoretically should work. It's entirely possible that Spidey's Spider-Sense has been inconsistent throughout his 40 years. Enough possibility to put money on, really...

Originally posted by Wanderer259
It's picked up stuff like MJ playfully attempting to cover his eyes from behind.
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Cresh and Merc, here you go...

Spidey's spider-sense reacts to potential, immediate danger by giving him a 'buzz' at the base of his skull, acting at .003 seconds worth of a warning, which is usually enough time. It tells him the general direction of the danger, and by the intensity of the 'buzzing', the severity.

To give an example, let's say Cap is standing behind Spidey and decides he's going to throw a punch. Spidey won't receive a message saying Cap is going to throw a punch in the immediate future. What he will get is a buzzing feeling at the base of his skull .003 seconds before Cap's fist strikes the back of his head. It'll tell him that in .003 seconds, something will strike him from behind and it'll hurt this bad if it does. It's not pre-cog, as there has to be stimuli to react to - his Spider-Sense is a reaction, not a form of ESP. Of course, in the example I just gave, Spidey is fast enough to dodge Cap's fist.

Can I trust that number? 🙁

I don't know anything anymore. . .

Go look at the end of the Wolverine Vs Conan thread and you'll find my confusion . . .

Because if this came with the 120 pounds per square milimeter stat for spiderman's webbing. . .

Can I trust that number? sad

I don't know anything anymore. . .

Go look at the end of the Wolverine Vs Conan thread and you'll find my confusion . . .

Because if this came with the 120 pounds per square milimeter stat for spiderman's webbing. . .

I saw, and I agree, somewhat. It, however, is the only number I have to go on and there's really nothing comic-wise to dispute it, unlike the faulty physics attributed to Spidey's webbing whilst contradicting itself with the Hulk having problems pulling it apart.

In any case, really, it does show that Spidey doesn't have pre-cog, but an insanely swift reaction speed. Basically, with his Spider-Sense guiding him, Peter's reaction speed is technically .003 seconds, which is just unimaginably fast.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
I saw, and I agree, somewhat. It, however, is the only number I have to go on and there's really nothing comic-wise to dispute it, unlike the faulty physics attributed to Spidey's webbing whilst contradicting itself with the Hulk having problems pulling it apart.

I almost wish I hadn't figured out that the number they gave is less than steel. . . Almost. . except. . knowing the truth . . I don't know.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
In any case, really, it does show that Spidey doesn't have pre-cog, but an insanely swift reaction speed. Basically, with his Spider-Sense guiding him, Peter's reaction speed is technically .003 seconds, which is just unimaginably fast.

But what would the stimuli for danger be if not a limited psi thing. . I mean look at brainchild's signature. . it has a comic that explains Spiderman's spider sense in it. . and it talks about how he can use it to defuse bombs. . . which would be ridiculous if there was no beyond explination reason. . .

That's true. . .

But what would the stimuli for danger be if not a limited psi thing. . I mean look at brainchild's signature. . it has a comic that explains Spiderman's spider sense in it. . and it talks about how he can use it to defuse bombs. . . which would be ridiculous if there was no beyond explination reason. . .

I have to state, however, that the above is simply how it theoretically should work. It's entirely possible that Spidey's Spider-Sense has been inconsistent throughout his 40 years. Enough possibility to put money on, really...

Originally posted by Wanderer259
I saw, and I agree, somewhat. It, however, is the only number I have to go on and there's really nothing comic-wise to dispute it, unlike the faulty physics attributed to Spidey's webbing whilst contradicting itself with the Hulk having problems pulling it apart.

In any case, really, it does show that Spidey doesn't have pre-cog, but an insanely swift reaction speed. Basically, with his Spider-Sense guiding him, Peter's reaction speed is technically .003 seconds, which is just unimaginably fast.

Well that's what I wanted to hear. Thanks Wanderer.

But what would the stimuli for danger be if not a limited psi thing. . I mean look at brainchild's signature. . it has a comic that explains Spiderman's spider sense in it. . and it talks about how he can use it to defuse bombs. . . which would be ridiculous if there was no beyond explination reason. . .

By the way, that example and the idea that he can simply walk past a guy he's never seen before and just know that it's, for example, the Shocker is just like the example of Wolverine regenerating from a single cell or his healing factor letting him survive a nuke.

Originally posted by Wanderer259
By the way, that example and the idea that he can simply walk past a guy he's never seen before and just know that it's, for example, the Shocker is just like the example of Wolverine regenerating from a single cell or his healing factor letting him survive a nuke.

Originally posted by MERCILOUS
Several times faster? prove it. 12% faster. Predict?

It's already been proven, pick up any Marvel handbook or SM comic. As I've mentioned before, he's been described as a blur by many of his opponents, one example that I can think of the top of my head would be the "Secret Wars" comic where he faces the X-men. Another example is the time where he fights Thor, and is described as a "lightning fast speedball"

Spidersenses are not precog. Incredibly fast yes, before it happens no. You've decided to pump up Spiderman for this fight or have been mislead into beleiving that is actually how spiderman is.

Grossly incorrect. The spider sense is precognition, as it is described by Marvel as a type of "clairavoyance/psychic intuition." Although he does not sense exactly what speciific type of danger is coming at him.

And of course, you left out how he willingly stayed in that webbing and when he decided it was worth tearing his skin for he got out quite easily.

I wouldn't say it was easily, if that were the case he would have freed himself upon initially being webbed. It's quite obvious that he had been up there for quite some time, and used a combination of leverage and claws to free himself after the webbing had become somewhat brittle.

Not tanks, average weight of a tank is over 50 tons, so it seems you've built Spidey up past his ability again.

How much would you say a building structure weighs? I'd take a gander to say quite a bit more than 50 tons. There have been multiple occassions where the wallcrawler has freed himself from under the debris of objects even heaver than that. Based on the consitancy of this happening, I believe its accurate to state that he can lift objects that are exceed what is perceived to be his maximum limit, partcularly in extenuation circumstances.

That's a stupid question, it deserves no better response than this.

I'll take that as a yes.

Sure.

Good we're making progress.

And giving you the benifit of the doubt, you have proven yourself sadly misinformed.

I don't think so. The fact that you and others bring up the argument of SM's speed being on the same level as the Trio even comes into question is ridiculous. Particularly since Marvel lists him as being several notches above in speed in their handbooks, and he is demonstrated the ability to do things that none of the combatants can do based on this speed. (please not that neither Captain/Wolvie/DD are described as a "blur" regularly in battle. And that superhuman speed and reflexes are much greater than peak human speed and reflexes)

Not likely, there's a difference between objects moving on a linier path and a threatening actively defending opponent, a distinction you have chosen to neglect.

I don't neglect it..based on history, we've seen spider man has demonstrated proficient accuracy in snagging moving targets with the line. To deny this as happening is silly, and demonstrates your Trio fanboyism.

With what efficiency?

Cap and Wolvie have worked together killing nazi's. DD and Cap have worked together. Wolvie and DD have worked together. Uninhibited by morals? That's not part of there character, which is also something you've forgotten. As for the rest of this statement it has no bearing in reality.

In this particular scenario, all cambatants will be fighting out of character, with the exception of Wolverine, who frequently demonstrates his ability to be pushed over the edge of moral boundaries and reason.

Have any of the Trio fought together in a situation such as this, with no prep? No.

Has Cap demonstrated the ability to easily control/lead an "any means necessary" Wolvie or Daredevil? Of course not, to compare the battles above to this particular hypothetical scenario is rediculous, specifically when taken into account the initial stipulations given by the thread originator.

Oh I see you think Cap has never lead others in random style encounter. such bafoonery is not worth debating.

Refer to above. Obviously there is bafoonary going on, but it is not on my part.

And it is at the very least as valid if not moreso than yours.

You are entitled to it, however, that does not make it valid.

Funny, the only thing you've proven is that you know how to use smileys, good for you.

And that you SM has precognition, SM is stronger than the Trio, SM is faster than the Trio, and and lest not forget the most pertinent fact, you are definately a Cap/Wolvie/DD fanboy.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Has he snagged that at 60 feet before?

He's snagged things quite heavy object such as boulder and similar like object from quite some distance before. And lobbed them in the air fairly easily. He's also snagged fast moving objects that exceed the speed of any of the Trio(ie Glider)

A) There is the sixty feet thing to consider, and unlike a car they would be resisting and would try to cut the line.

You make it sound as if he'll be slowly pulling him toward himself, which is a highly illogical assumption. I would assume that he would just jerk them very quickly up into the air or toward himself after having snagged them. This is very probable seeing as how he has the strength to do so, and seeing as how he has demonstrated the ability to things similar to this in his comics.

b) Can he change consistency with the organic webbing?

It's never been stipulated what type of webbing he's using in this battle, however, the strength of the webbing and the different techniques that he can do with it have as of yet not been clearly defined.

At 60 feet?

Yes its possible.

That would require a pretty strong upward tug . ..

No it wouldn't Cap/Wolvie/DD weigh a bit over 200 lbs, that's like tugging a kite up in the air to SM.

and even if they couldn't it would only go as high as spiderman was standing . . . the problem is the elasticity of the webbing. . .it makes it more like a rope than a stiff beam, or something.

We're assuming that the only thing that Spiderman is limited to just throwing him directly in the air..he could just as easily throw them in a horizontal direction, or at another one of the combatants once they've been snagged.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And lets not forget that Spiderman was attempting to web him up more. (look behind the "Now that was funny" speech balloon.)

Now your being a bit misleading. It's fairly obvious that he's not taking the battle seriously based on the expression "Now that was funny" It's fairly obvioius that he is not trying to completely incapacitate him with the webbing..

I see you didn't bother reading the last few pages of this thread since you've posted, I suggest you do, there are some enlightening arguements on them.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
It's already been proven, pick up any Marvel handbook or SM comic. As I've mentioned before, he's been described as a blur by many of his opponents, one example that I can think of the top of my head would be the "Secret Wars" comic where he faces the X-men. Another example is the time where he fights Thor, and is described as a "lightning fast speedball"

Secret Wars! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! You mean where his powers where augmented while being on battle world?

And Thor had peek human speed at the time at best.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Grossly incorrect. The spider sense is precognition, as it is described by Marvel as a type of "clairavoyance/psychic intuition." Although he does not sense exactly what speciific type of danger is coming at him.

Wanderer and marvel don't seem to agree, they seem to think what I've thought all along. But you would have known that had you bother to do any reading.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I wouldn't say it was easily, if that were the case he would have freed himself upon initially being webbed. It's quite obvious that he had been up there for quite some time, and used a combination of leverage and claws to free himself after the webbing had become somewhat brittle.

Another gross misunderstanding on your part. He originally planned to stay until the webbing dissolved so as to save himself some displeasure but found that he had to break free and did so immediatley.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
How much would you say a building structure weighs? I'd take a gander to say quite a bit more than 50 tons. There have been multiple occassions where the wallcrawler has freed himself from under the debris of objects even heaver than that. Based on the consitancy of this happening, I believe its accurate to state that he can lift objects that are exceed what is perceived to be his maximum limit, partcularly in extenuation circumstances.

Sorry bub, (hehe i said bub) you either stick to marvel stats or you don't at all. Your double standard here just isn't helping you.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I'll take that as a yes.

Good we're making progress.

I don't think so. The fact that you and others bring up the argument of SM's speed being on the same level as the Trio even comes into question is ridiculous. Particularly since Marvel lists him as being several notches above in speed in their handbooks, and he is demonstrated the ability to do things that none of the combatants can do based on this speed. (please not that neither Captain/Wolvie/DD are described as a "blur" regularly in battle. And that superhuman speed and reflexes are much greater than peak human speed and reflexes)

And yet that's the way they're portrayed in all of Spidey's books? So which are correct, the books, or the stats which you say we should use but then only selectively when it benifits you? And Wolvie has been described to move faster than the eye can see. Several Notches? Now that's just a blatant lie.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
I don't neglect it..based on history, we've seen spider man has demonstrated proficient accuracy in snagging moving targets with the line. To deny this as happening is silly, and demonstrates your Trio fanboyism.

And yet you chose to ignore my question...

Originally posted by whobdamandog
In this particular scenario, all cambatants will be fighting out of character, with the exception of Wolverine, who frequently demonstrates his ability to be pushed over the edge of moral boundaries and reason.

Out of character? Well that's not the forum rules, but if you insist, Wolvie kills in one hit, Cap uses his shield to decapitate Spidey, and DD times a punch to Spidey's heart so as to kill in one hit.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Have any of the Trio fought together in a situation such as this, with no prep? No.

So you mention Secret Wars but fail to realize that indeed they have? Are you sure you read it?

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Has Cap demonstrated the ability to easily control/lead an "any means necessary" Wolvie or Daredevil? Of course not, to compare the battles above to this particular hypothetical scenario is rediculous, specifically when taken into account the initial stipulations given by the thread originator.

You seem to enjoy doing this so "refer to the above"

Originally posted by whobdamandog
Refer to above. Obviously there is bafoonary going on, but it is not on my part.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
You are entitled to it, however, that does not make it valid.

Even though I just owned you with your own arguements.

Originally posted by whobdamandog
And that you SM has precognition, SM is stronger than the Trio, SM is faster than the Trio, and and lest not forget the most pertinent fact, you are definately a Cap/Wolvie/DD fanboy.

Even though there's an instance where (3 in Wolvie's case) where each of these heros has owned Spidey and your best arguement is stats which you don't even beleive. And I'm the fanboy, sure buddy.