Okay..for those of use who would like to get more information as to why SM is Superior to Daredevil...please reference the following thread entitled...
Why Spiderman would beat DD's ASS!!
Originally posted by unregisteredMAN
i'm new here. i have a few things to say about this one...........those are my 2 cents.
While I greatly commend you on your arguments and actually pointing out how dominating Spidey really is over these guys physically.....I don't see how Wolvie could block an attack from Spidey without Spidey noticing and resorting to merely leaping over Wolvie, though I see you indicated that though Spidey would have to be careful he could still see it through with his speed. Again, I commend you.
I still don't see how Cap can anticipate the movements of someone with reflexes 30-40x faster than that of a human, pre-cog, and superhuman speed in general such as Spidey with sheer instinct alone. Computerized weaponry built for the sole purpose of this could not do so, and I wouldn't exaggerate the Cap's tactician skills to the point where I would compare him to computerized weaponry. Spidey's spider sense combined with his physical speed and intelligence allows him to compensate for most all attacks delivered to himt hat have not been misrepresented to be delivered faster than they have a right to be. But still I see that you've admitted that Spidey could stop Cap also, again, I commend you.
And I see your point in Wolvie's case though I think the caution you stress Spidey's needing of is slightly exaggerated....
I really don't think that there's a big difference if they team up. It's a non-prep fight after all and Spidey's ability to think on his feet combined with the strength, speed, agility, etc. advantages he holds in great abundance over Cap, DD, and Wolvie would still play a definitive role. Obviously, Spidey can easily isolate Cap, DD, or Wolvie at the starting bell courtesy of a blitz attack assisted with his superhuman speed, to say nothing if he comes in swinging, if that happens, Cap, DD, and Wolvie are all subjective to concussion. Though this may be less so for Logan, it's not impossible. And Spidey playing it safe isn't a bad thing. DD is most subjective to a webbing attack seeing as though he has nothing but billy clubs to protect himself from a widespray of webbing, and if Spidey goes aerial webs the trio up from above, well, you be the judge on whether you think they're breaking free or not.
And let's not forget the differences in the three's personalities. Wolvie's more than likely to be the first to charge for an attack (assuming Spidey doesn't do so, ending the fight with a blitz here and there). Chances are Cap and DD would come too late to try and stop him and once Logan's close enough he's an easy target for a powerful mulekick courtesy of Ol' Webhead. Knowing that Cap would be out and about scouting the playing field, for someone of Spidey's speed and strength, the star-spangled Avenger is an easy target. Once Cap is on the run from an oncoming Spidey, he's isolated, and there's nothing he can do to counter Spidey's attacks physically once you take into perspective the fact that Pete is strong enough to rip Cap's shield from his grasp and throw it far off to the side. I mean, is Cap really fast enough to use it as a weapon? And we can't forget DD, who would most likely try and avoid Spidey's attacks in hopes that the webbed one would tire long enough for him to do.....something. This has little to virtually no chance of happening. We're still dealing with a clear-headed Spidey here, only now we're dealing with one not restrained by his strong moral values and is more than willing to kill. The speed advantage in Spidey's ploy is just too overwhelming.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
I'm sorry its actually entitled Why Spiderman would [b]kick DD's ass. It's okay unregistered..welcome aboard!! Most people here, much like myself are very cynical..or you can just call us assholes..which ever term you prefer..lol [/B]
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Another "historical" example..SM confronts the Red Skull...
This is too easy. Captain America has never had a problem fighting with Red Skull. The only time Red Skull has EVER physically been able to stand up to Cap for any length of an issue is when he is being enhanced by some outside device (i.e. the Cosmic Cube, cybernetic armor, etc.). He usually just throws lots and lots of bullets, laser beams, Nazis, henchmen, etc. at him. And since Captain America and the Red Skull have been fighting each other and studying each other's moves since WW2, it stands to reason that these two would know how to duck and dodge against each other when they do go at it. This is basically the same concept behind Captain America beating the Scorpion in just 4 pages, while Spider-Man takes entire issues to defeat him. Different villain, same concept.
Also, perhaps Red Skull was genuinely impressed with Spider-Man's abilities. Apparently, more so than Captain America, who has NEVER backed down from... well... anyone, that I can think of. Spider-Man, however, according to the ol' webhead himself, is EXTREMELY impressed with Cap. Maybe he knows something you Spidey fanboys don't. Or at least won't admit to.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Interesting...how the hell did so much text get into a single post? Oh I'm sorry what was your point again? Could you repeat the last paragraph please..?
Once again, someone writes out a well thought out post, and because it wasn't for you guys, this is the best you can do. 'unregisterdMAN', I had no problem reading it, and I thought you made some very good points. And you tied it up nicely by pointing out basically what we've been saying all along: Spider-Man loses in a 3-on-1.
StrawNilla
you bring up some good points. however, i still think that the three of them would be quite tough for spiderman. there are certainly some potential scenarios in which spiderman could isolate cap or DD and take them out, but i dont think he could take cap out right away. DD would probably go down quite quickly but cap is more potent. i'm reluctant to use numbers like '30-40X times faster than a normal human.' personally, im generally going by the power levels ive seen in handbooks and encyclopedias, and the scales are never that precise. hes fast as hell, and much faster than cap.
this doesnt mean however, that cap is powerless. technique and discipline and experience are what allows him to maximize his positioning and skills, and in these areas cap has the advantage. being an experienced fighter like cap means that hes trained enough to be able to anticipate, to a degree obviously, what spiderman would try to attack first, and even maybe open up and show a weakness to try and cox spiderman into doing what he wants. strategy like this is caps trademark, and though in the end hes certainly outmatched, he isnt a pushover.
moving on, in a three on one, i dont think that spiderman would win. isolating the weakest link is a possibility but one that is unlikely, especially with cap at the helm. its easy to picture a scenario in which spiderman wouldnt be able to isolate anyone. for example, the three would stay close enough to each other so that an attack on one would give the others an opportunity to counterattack spiderman. in general, while SM may be able to take DD out quickly, this would mean that he isnt concentrating on wolvie and cap, and therefore one or both of them would get close enough to demand spideys attention. incidentally, i dont think a 'mulekick' would finish wolverine.
i also dont like 'character' arguments. why would wolverine rush in foolishly? he isnt an idiot, hes fought on a team. it would be tough for spiderman to find a way to dance around these opponents, if they had even a minimal strategy, while still creating any kind of meaningful attack. the strategic aspect is still not in his favor, even though the power aspect might still be.
im stoned. dont know if i can write anymore.
I dunno.
From reading many Spiderman comics, I am led to believe that there are times when he actually does better fighting multiple enemies than one. You remember the Insidious Six? Sure he beat all of them one-on-one before, but (to me at least), it always seemed he took care of the group a little faster. He would use his superior speed to confuse his enemies. He would attack one but not concentrate on him, just attacking to weaken or stun. And when the others can to counterattack, he would move on the same way and repeat. Spidey's greatest ability is, in my opinion, his ability just to dodge/avoid a lethal situation. I imagine him flipping around, webbing enemies here and there, there will be punching and kicked of course, but it's all very strategic. Spidey actually uses their numbers against them, sometimes (Quiet often actually) making an opponent use an attack that either initially or eventually harms his own teammate.
Using the speed argument, Spidey really would be able to just attack the three repeatedly, not just one at a time, but not at the same time either. More like he hits one, bounces around and hits the other before he can be attacked back.
And it's not like Spidey doesn't know Captain America the same way Captain America knows him. And from history, I've seen more of Spiderman utilizing the ability to coax his opponent into doing what he wants, usually putting his opponent in a very compromising situation without him/her knowing it.
If the three decide on a close-quarters formation (sticking close together so Spiderman can't isolate them), then this is where his webbing comes into play. They might as well wrap themselves up for him. If there is a wall nearby, Spidey would just web them up against it. And depending on how his hands get webbed, Wolverine would most likely be the first to escape. And then a one-on-one could take place. Spidey could take care of Wolverine, either by knocking him out (yes, I know no one believes that Spidey could, but it's clear that Wolverine can indeed be knocked out by a strong blow to the head) or to incapacitate him (Probably webbing him upside on a light pole, with claws pointing towards his head).
And don't you dare argue and say that Wolverine would be fine if he forced his claws into his head to somehow escape (Although I'm not sure how he'd escape from there anyway even if he stab his head). He would be permanently brain damaged if he tried to do that, that is if he got through his own adamantium skull. In which case, Spidey would still make sure that he would be tied up so tight that he couldn't budge. One of Spidey's specialities.
By the time the others escape from their super-strong web encasing (that is to say if they do, since it is as strong as steel cable, which I know for a fact that neither Cap nor DD could actually break with their own strength) then Spidey will be ready for them, having already taken out the most dangerous of the three. Now he just uses his speed and strength again, having a MUCH easier time taking on two opponents rather than three.
I still say Spiderman wins. It would be awesome to watch, but he still wins.
well done unregisteredman well done. Like cap said this is basically what we've been saying all along. My only bikkerings are with the berling graveyard fight, you made it sound as if spiderman was in a more comprimising position that wolverine was when they were both at eachother's mercy by the end of it....but still the fact remains, spiderman admittedly gave wolverine everything he had in terms of physical force, while wolverine held back (hit him back in the face with his claws sheathed). I know a lot of spidey fans want to simply disregard this example cause it was in a one shot.....however this oneshot comic IS IN CONTINUITY. nuff said. This is also what confuses me when spiderman fans think any multitude of punches is gonna KO wolverine when guys like hulk, cyber, and wendigo couldn't do it to wolverine while he lost his adamantium. I mean spidey knocking wolverine's ass out is just too far of a reach.
And I don't know how many other trio supporters think DD can take spidey but imo he can't. My whole point was that he would give spidey alot of trouble (running away or not). Like unregistered said, this is helpful for drawing spidey in to the grasp of the trio.
And Strawnilla, that spiderman wasn't as green as you would have peeps beleive, I mean common he had already bested some of his tougher trademark villains like a smart lizard, chameleon, doc ock, vulture, sandman, electro, the fantastic four (they're not villains obviously but he had a bout with them),and doctor doom. It's not like he just got his powers, he'd been doing the superhero thing for like a year. The point still remains, Spiderman based on his powers alone in your view shouldn't be hit or have trouble taking on the trio. Same apllies here, in your view spidey based on his powers alone shouldn't have had a such a problem with several above average street thugs, I mean common, you honestly think that those three guys had leagues more experience than spidey? especially when spiderman already fought guys that make those three look like school children. But guess what, with minimal experience and teamwork they were able to put parker on the run. yet you still beleive that this trio which packs more teamwork leadership, power, and experience, won't be able to put a hurting on spidey. pfffft. whatever.
Metal, I like your point about SM using multiple opponents to his advantage. its definitely happened and i agree, SM is perfectly suited for such a strategy b/c of his speed and agility. but i think that, in general, its a bad idea to present a possible situation as a proof. sure, its possible that spiderman will be able to outmaneuver cap, wolvie, and DD, but is it likely? either way you go on that one, you'll have to admit that its far from certain that hed manage it. like i said before, spidey would have to be really perfect and plan his assault out in great detail to pull something like that off. against the quality of fighters and tacticians (cap) i think he'd be hard pressed to confuse his opponents and get them to panic enough forget that they would fare far better if they worked as a team. this is really wheres cap's strategic skills would take over. again, its possible for spiderman to win this one, but i think its unlikely.
also, about the graveyard fight. i dont think its fair to point to a single comic and use that to draw conclusions about possibilities and strengths and weeknesses etc. any single work will display biases for the sake of the story, and i think that this particular comic is a great example. can you imagine it working if SM beat the shit out of wolvie? also, its kinda rare to see wolverine get his ass thouroughly beaten. in my opinion hes been over used by marvel as some kind of mysterious powerhouse that just can't be stopped. this is clearly inconsistent with his power level, and i think its one of the most annoying things about wolverines character. it ruins a character when he becomes some sort of ridiculous ideal.
dont get me wrong, i think youre right in the sense that wolvie isn't easy to knock out, not by any means, but to say that it cant happen is a bit of a stretch. he isnt the juggernaut. i think its most consistent to admit that if hit hard enough, enough times, he'll go down. and SM certainly has the credentials to deliver the package.
Exactly, thank you, Unregistered. That's basically what I was going for. I really should not have said it would be easy. It would be quite difficult. But that's the way Spidey fights, he uses his opponents basically. I agre with everything that you've said. Spiderman could indeed win, though it would be quite an ordeal.
And I also agree to your Wolverine comment. Like you said, he isn't the Juggernaut. Enough very powerful hits to the head will indeed knock him out. And Spidey definitely has the ability to do so.
And even though I said Wolverine would be the most dangerous, I should've added that Cap would definitely be the most difficult to defeat. His combat experience and tactical skills would indeed make him the most challenging to defeat by far. But it can be done.
Originally posted by Capt.JK
This is too easy. Captain America has never had a problem fighting with Red Skull. The only time Red Skull has [B]EVER physically been able to stand up to Cap for any length of an issue is when he is being enhanced by some outside device (i.e. the Cosmic Cube, cybernetic armor, etc.). He usually just throws lots and lots of bullets, laser beams, Nazis, henchmen, etc. at him. And since Captain America and the Red Skull have been fighting each other and studying each other's moves since WW2, it stands to reason that these two would know how to duck and dodge against each other when they do go at it. This is basically the same concept behind Captain America beating the Scorpion in just 4 pages, while Spider-Man takes entire issues to defeat him. Different villain, same concept....
Thank you sir..once again you've illustrated my point. SM consistantly fights the Scorpian. Now apply your same logic from above to their battles....
Also, perhaps Red Skull was genuinely impressed with Spider-Man's abilities. Apparently, more so than Captain America...
What does that tell you ...think man think...What does that tell you!!
...according to the ol' webhead himself, is EXTREMELY impressed with Cap. Maybe he knows something you Spidey fanboys don't. Or at least won't admit to.
LOL...once again you Trio supporter's are being misleading...The issue where SM hits cap, he consistantly dodges a flurry of punches from him, all the while trying to determine exactly what the good Captain is up to. Captain hits him once...Let me repeat myself...ONCE...SM wasn't even trying to fight him. They both come to terms after Cap hits him, and proceed to go after the real villian..Electro..Now how the hell do you guys call this a win? Seriously though guys, DD consistantly runs from the guy, and you state that he's stalemated him, and Captain punches the guy ONE time when he isn't trying to fight him, and you call that a win? What the hell are you guys smoking? Puhleasse give me some of that stuff when your done...Maybe its not PIS after all but FIS(fanboy induced stupidity) that is responsable for such illogical assumptions...
Originally posted by wolverine8888
first off siderman fought wolverine twice he never even hurt wolverine enough to heal and in the second fight wolverine was winning first fight they were tied. so I don't know what make u think him and too others wouldent hand spiderman his ass right off the bat. wolverien would neevr bother with a 3 vs 1 vs some one he could ebat so he just walk away and elt them two do it
I don't know about that ! he most likely would walk away because they would be there. but wolverine has a horrible temper and if he was mad enough he would stay and fight. But your right he would most likely walk away.
Originally posted by crazyspinz
sory, i thought u posted this thread wolverine8888, my bad, i edited it out. but spidey could beat wolverine, it would be close as hell, but it would go to spidey
Spiderman has the advantage but do you notice how he always makes the mistake of leaving himself exposed or mess up! I'm not knocken spidey cause he's one of my favorites but he messes up once and wolverine would slice him from the waist up if he got the chance that is!
Originally posted by wolverine8888
naw no way in both fights wolverine never had to heal once lol soo that even says that if they fought to the death wolverine would surly win
Of course, your right !! royal blue
spiderman is young and not as experianced as wolverine
even though spidey has the advantage wolverine would be the winner
but I would hate to see a fight to the death cause I like spiderman,but wolvie is the best.