Originally posted by Metalmanx
I dunno.From reading many Spiderman comics, I am led to believe that there are times when he actually does better fighting multiple enemies than one. You remember the Insidious Six? Sure he beat all of them one-on-one before, but (to me at least), it always seemed he took care of the group a little faster. He would use his superior speed to confuse his enemies. He would attack one but not concentrate on him, just attacking to weaken or stun. And when the others can to counterattack, he would move on the same way and repeat. Spidey's greatest ability is, in my opinion, his ability just to dodge/avoid a lethal situation...
The problem with this example is that none of the guys in the "Six" are Captain America. They are all a bunch of hot-headed power-hungry villains. Captain America is a born leader and is used to fighting and directing teams against an opponent. One of his greatest "powers" is reading an opponent on the fly and gauging his weaknesses, then turning them against him. That is why Marvel lists him as one of the greatest hand-to-hand fighters in the MU. Captain America is not going to act from emotion or spaz out and go off on some half-assed counter attack if Spider-Man does this or that. Cap will already expect Spider-Man to fight the way he fights, and he will direct the others against him accordingly.
Originally posted by jinzin
And I don't know how many other trio supporters think DD can take spidey but imo he can't. My whole point was that he would give spidey alot of trouble (running away or not). Like unregistered said, this is helpful for drawing spidey in to the grasp of the trio.
You know, this is exactly the scenario I used WAAAAYYYY back when this thread was still in its infancy. DD would draw Spidey into a close-quarters battle with Captain America and Wolverine in an enclosed area, building, whatever, where he couldn't use his obvious agility advantage to help him get away. If Spider-Man didn't follow, then the trio would wait him out. Either the fight happens, or every body gets bored of waiting and calls it a night.
Originally posted by whobdamandog
What does that tell you ...think man think...What does that tell you!!
Exactly what I was saying. Red Skull was apparently impressed with Spider-Man. He doesn't relish the thought of going up against Cap without some major help either. Cap gives Spidey credit where it is due, but he doesn't and has never acted as if Parker is some major player who he should be afraid of in a straight-up head-to-head. In fact, Cap doesn't act that way towards anyone.
The same logic applies to the following comment that I wrote about Scorpion, which you left out of your quote in order to try and confuse readers about my post. Captain America beat the guy in 4 pages, while Spider-Man spends entire issues running from him. Apparently, Cap is not as impressed with the Scorpion as Spidey is.
scorpion know spiderman. he know his strenghts, his weaknesess and his abilities. Spidey runs around often because he is utilizing all his abilities,ie leaping, web swinging, and wall crawling. Plus he lures enemies that are potentially dangerous to inocent bystanders. scorpion probably does not know anything about cap and underestimated him.
How many times have thay fought? The first encounter sets the stage for the rest and then cap will notice the scorpion gets harder to beat.
Originally posted by Capt.JK
...Captain America beat the guy in 4 pages, while Spider-Man spends entire issues running from him. Apparently, Cap is not as impressed with the Scorpion as Spidey is. [/B]
Cap are you okay..seriously dude...SM defeated the Red Skull in about 2 pages..lol..I was not trying to avoid anything. My point was that they both..awww..forget it...just refer to the previous post...lol..
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Cap are you okay..seriously dude...SM defeated the Red Skull in about 2 pages..lol..I was not trying to avoid anything. My point was that they both..awww..forget it...just refer to the previous post...lol..
Can you even read, man? I'm referring to Cap or Spider-Man fighting Scorpion in this paragraph. Red Skull is not mentioned at all in this reference. What the hell are you talking about?
Originally posted by Captain_JK
Can you even read, man? I'm referring to Cap or Spider-Man fighting Scorpion in this paragraph. Red Skull is not mentioned at all in this reference. What the hell are you talking about?
BWAHAHAH..can you? Didn't I already shoot down this argument before..oh well let me go ahead and do it again. Your argument is Cap consistantly fights the Red Skull, so the Red Skull is accustomed to his weaknesses right? Can't the same logic be applied to Spider Man vs Scorpian? If it can't then you might as well just throw your argument out the window. Oh yeah and Spider Man made quick work of Cap's Nemesis, on several occassions...not just one...
And you didn't address my other comment..ya know the one referring to DD stalemating Spidey(which is complete bullsh*t by the way) I still have yet to be given an example of him doing this...and no running away from hypnotized Spider Man does not count...
Originally posted by whobdamandog
BWAHAHAH..can you? Didn't I already shoot down this argument before..oh well let me go ahead and do it again. Your argument is Cap consistantly fights the Red Skull, so the Red Skull is accustomed to his weaknesses right? Can't the same logic be applied to Spider Man vs Scorpian? If it can't then you might as well just throw [b]your argument out the window. Oh yeah and Spider Man made quick work of Cap's Nemesis, on several occassions...not just one...And you didn't address my other comment..ya know the one referring to DD stalemating Spidey(which is complete bullsh*t by the way) I still have yet to be given an example of him doing this...and no running away from hypnotized Spider Man does not count... [/B]
You know, I've never actually HAD to quote myself before, but since you obviously CAN NOT READ, I'm going to do it for you just this once. I'm even going to highlight the important reference points for you so you can follow along, okay? (If it gets to hard for you, just read slower and drink a tall glass of milk in between paragraphs). Here goes:
Originally posted by Capt.JK
This is too easy. Captain America has never had a problem fighting with Red Skull. The only time Red Skull has EVER physically been able to stand up to Cap for any length of an issue is when he is being enhanced by some outside device (i.e. the Cosmic Cube, cybernetic armor, etc.). He usually just throws lots and lots of bullets, laser beams, Nazis, henchmen, etc. at him. And since Captain America and the Red Skull have been fighting each other and studying each other's moves since WW2, it stands to reason that these two would know how to duck and dodge against each other when they do go at it. This is basically the same concept behind Captain America beating the Scorpion in just 4 pages, while Spider-Man takes entire issues to defeat him. Different villain, same concept.
See? It was there all along.
As far as your second point, I'm not really of the opinion that DareDevil CAN defeat, or even stalemate, Spider-Man, so I'm not really sure what you're looking for from me on this matter. I'm pretty sure I've established myself as the "Captain America" guy on this thread, so why do you want me to talk about DD? I said, again WAAAAAYYYY back in the beginning of this thread, that DareDevil was the weak link in the trio's chain, but the three heroes together can still put Spider-Man down.
Wait, don't think I'm stupid or anything, but for some reason, I don't seem to understand one of your concepts. What you're saying is...because Cap and Red Skull have been fighting for so many years, it stands to reason that they would each know how the other fights.
Understandable.
But what I don't understand, is how this same logic applies to a foe that Captain America beats on the first time. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Cap didn't beat Scorpion. But your logic makes no sense. How would Cap's ability to know what Scorpion's fighting style is work if Cap just plain doesn't know what Scorpion's fighting style is. He wouldn't. Your logic means nothing in this situation. He just plain beat Scorpion. He didn't know all his moves and plan ahead of time he was going to fight since they hadn't "been fighting each other and studying each other's moves since WW2".
But, ya know, that's just me. Making sense.
I think the whole point of this example is that captain america is completely able to handle himself when faces against villains at spidermans level hence he would be able to hold his own against spiderman more or less. Your really have to have read this entire string of posts, I firmly believe that the only people who really know what's going on here are those that have. lol
Originally posted by Capt.JK
And since Captain America and the Red Skull have been fighting each other and studying each other's moves since WW2, it stands to reason that these two would know how to duck and dodge against each other when they do go at it. This is basically the same concept behind Captain America beating the Scorpion in just 4 pages, while Spider-Man takes entire issues to defeat him. Different villain, same concept.
JEEPERS FREAKING CRIPES JK..what don't you understand about this anology..let me break it down to you in simple terms...
Cap fight Skull lot....Spider fight Scorp lot...
Cap have ez time wit Scorp....Spider have ez time wit Skull...
Cap haz hard time wit Skull cuz he fight Skull a lot..
Spider haz hard time with Scorp cuz he fight Scorp a lot...
there...now was that so hard to understand...lol.. 😆 😆
Originally posted by unregisteredMAN
StrawNillayou bring up some good points. however, i still think that the three of them would be quite tough for spiderman. there are certainly some potential scenarios in which spiderman could isolate cap or DD and take them out, but i dont think he could take cap out right away. DD would probably go down quite quickly but cap is more potent. i'm reluctant to use numbers like '30-40X times faster than a normal human.' personally, im generally going by the power levels ive seen in handbooks and encyclopedias, and the scales are never that precise. hes fast as hell, and much faster than cap.
this doesnt mean however, that cap is powerless. technique and discipline and experience are what allows him to maximize his positioning and skills, and in these areas cap has the advantage. being an experienced fighter like cap means that hes trained enough to be able to anticipate, to a degree obviously, what spiderman would try to attack first, and even maybe open up and show a weakness to try and cox spiderman into doing what he wants. strategy like this is caps trademark, and though in the end hes certainly outmatched, he isnt a pushover.
moving on, in a three on one, i dont think that spiderman would win. isolating the weakest link is a possibility but one that is unlikely, especially with cap at the helm. its easy to picture a scenario in which spiderman wouldnt be able to isolate anyone. for example, the three would stay close enough to each other so that an attack on one would give the others an opportunity to counterattack spiderman. in general, while SM may be able to take DD out quickly, this would mean that he isnt concentrating on wolvie and cap, and therefore one or both of them would get close enough to demand spideys attention. incidentally, i dont think a 'mulekick' would finish wolverine.
i also dont like 'character' arguments. why would wolverine rush in foolishly? he isnt an idiot, hes fought on a team. it would be tough for spiderman to find a way to dance around these opponents, if they had even a minimal strategy, while still creating any kind of meaningful attack. the strategic aspect is still not in his favor, even though the power aspect might still be.
im stoned. dont know if i can write anymore.
You also bring up some good points, but I'm not reluctant to say that Spidey has reflexes 30-40 times faster than a human's. Not to mention that I wouldn't see how any technique could help Cap against an oppoenent faster, stronger, more durable, etc. than he. I just can't see the sense in it. If Cap is truly human, and Spidey is truly superhumanly powered with a gifted-level intullect, then how can Cap defend himself alone? You say that he and DD can be isolated, and that DD would go down fast, but despite Cap being more potent he's never been labeled as a superhuman, nor does the abilities in his ploy tell a different story. I couldn't see him lasting a second longer against DD when in the ay of an unpulled punch courtesy of Spidey, even a pulled punch with only so much as concussive force behind it is enough to take him out of the fight.
And if Spidey has pre-cog that heightens his already superhuman reflexes with superhuman speed to match then I don't see how Cap's attacks would really fare fast enough to connect with Spidey, and, even if they were to, it would be to no avail as, again, Spidey has a nifty thing called superhuman durability (with superhuman will to boot.) With this as a factor in Spidey's favor, any weaknesses that Cap could possibly exploit would do all of a little-to-nothing to help his situation. Pressure points? As someone has already pointed out, Kraven the Hunter has tried this with Spidey more than once only to be informed by the Spider himself that that little trick doesn't work, not to mention that Spidey's reflexes are too much for Cap to hit just any ol' nerve on Spidey in the first place. No matter what Cap can coax Spidey into (let's look past the fact that no one's hardly going to coax a guy with pre-cog into doing much of anything), what can Cap do to Spidey? Whack him with his shield? Faster than Spidey can avoid it? Not likely.
It's not easy to picture Wolvie taking orders from most anyone, even Cap. Let's face it. Wolvie's brash: he's got a healing factor, claws, and an attitude, all elements of someone who is, despite their bada**ness, unruly. What's to stop Wolvie from attacking Spidey before anyone can get to him? Cap's shield? Not to say this to just be saying this, but, frankly, there is but a short, short, short list of people that Wolvie may be intimidated by. And someone separating him from an opponent? Not on that list. I understand that Cap is a great teamleader, but Wolvie is just someone who chooses to be lead and is not lead against his will. Once Wolvie is in running distance of Spidey he's going to try and box him in for an attack. Sure, Wolvie couild most likely heal from a mulekick from Spidey, but we cannot overlook the fact that just one of Spidey's legs possesses power enough to kick down steel doors, through concrete, etc. And then of course, there's the issue of Spidey using not one, but two of his legs to execute the attack. Wolvie's going to feel it and a lot of pain pretty much instantaneously afterwards. And the impact should more than likely lift him off his feet and far into the air on a long distanced path, away from the fight. And let's not forget that the potential of such a kick when delivered to Cap or DD, it's fatal.
Did I say that Wolvie was an idiot, did I say the manner in which he would charge in would be foolish? No. It just plays a part in an array of his own attacks. Wolvie's obviously no idiot, he knows he has a healing factor to compensate for (in most cases) what he's running in to. And Wolvie's never been the ideal teamplayer, that's been proven plenty of times. Plus, for the majority of his "fighting for mutant rights" career, he's fought with *one* team. And in a non-prep fight, where Wolvie's dropped into a fight with two other characters that he only fights alongside on special occasions? He's not going to automatically adapt to Cap's strategic manner while Spidey is out there ready to battle. He's first out the bullpin, it's all apart of his instinct, the man earned the rep of a Wolverine BECAUSE he was always quick to fight. He hasn't grown out of it just yet.
And Spidey doesn't have to find a way to dance around slower opponents, a reflex is an involuntary reaction, he doesn't have to think about it. And his reflexes ARE superhumanly fast. And with the strength needed to waste the teamleader Cap with one punch, leaving DD and Wolvie to fend for himself, Spidey can fight his way out of a team effort.
Originally posted by jinzin
And Strawnilla, that spiderman wasn't as green as you would have peeps beleive, I mean common he had already bested some of his tougher trademark villains like a smart lizard, chameleon, doc ock, vulture, sandman, electro, the fantastic four (they're not villains obviously but he had a bout with them),and doctor doom. It's not like he just got his powers, he'd been doing the superhero thing for like a year. The point still remains, Spiderman based on his powers alone in your view shouldn't be hit or have trouble taking on the trio. Same apllies here, in your view spidey based on his powers alone shouldn't have had a such a problem with several above average street thugs, I mean common, you honestly think that those three guys had leagues more experience than spidey? especially when spiderman already fought guys that make those three look like school children. But guess what, with minimal experience and teamwork they were able to put parker on the run. yet you still beleive that this trio which packs more teamwork leadership, power, and experience, won't be able to put a hurting on spidey. pfffft. whatever.
So in your opinion my views are just as simple as Spidey's powers are enough to compensate for the lack of power backing the trio? Okay. That's your opinion. Doesn't change the fact that I've also acknowledged that Spidey, being the intelligent individual that he is, wouldn't be coaxed into doing much anything by a slower opponent who's only advantage lies in devising militial-like strategies. C'mon. Does Spidey being, physically, the most dominant character in the fight, as well as the most intelligent mean nothing to you? Not to critcize or anything, but Cap being the strategist that he is doesn't protect him from being blitzed by Spidey. If Spidey is easily the faster of the two, and stronger (strong enough to kill Cap with *one* punch) then what's to stop Spidey from putting this into play? Can Cap dispatch his teammates so fast in his defense that Spidey can't just leap over them? I should think not.
You really sound lopsided in your views. You have admitted that Spidey's fought enemies that would make any average group of street thugs look like school children yet their *minimal* experience and teamwork put Parker on the run? I don't understand what would make you think that way. You made Spidey sound like an idiot there in that scenario. And Spidey is NOT an idiot. He holds back alot against ALOT of his rogues that can't take it, sure, but that only makes him morally bound. And again, Wolvie symbolizes alot of things but the ability to work with a team and follow orders given to him are not attributes of his that he prides himself on. If there's an enemy, you'd better believe that he's going after him/her first, unless, of course, he's working with a couple of speedsters. He's not a reserved guy. And again, Spidey's worked with and fought against ALOT of organized teams, the trio he's fighting now is nothing special. It's your choice whether or not to take this in, if you do, great. If you don't, great, it's nothing I'll lose sleep over.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wait, don't think I'm stupid or anything... yada yada yada...
Originally posted by whobdamandog
JEEPERS FREAKING CRIPES JK... blah blah blah...
I must be typing in a foreign language or something. That's exactly what I said. Let's try this again, and I'll highlight just the relevant part:
Originally posted by Capt.JK
...Captain America and the Red Skull have been fighting each other and studying each other's moves since WW2, it stands to reason that these two would know how to duck and dodge against each other when they do go at it. This is basically the same concept behind Captain America beating the Scorpion in just 4 pages, while Spider-Man takes entire issues to defeat him. Different villain, same concept.
Now here is the post I was responding to in the first place, just in case you forgot:
Originally posted by whobdamandog
Another "historical" example..SM confronts the Red Skull...Cap's nemesis. The Red skull, being a complete nutered p*ssy sends one of his henchmen after SM. Spider Man quickly clobbers the Henchman, and the Red Skull runs away in fear of SM's power. Spidey then goes on to whoop on the Red Skull, the guy who Cap consistantly has difficulty with...
It seems to me that your point was that Cap has trouble beating Red Skull, who Spider-Man easily defeated, so how can Cap beat Spider-Man. My retort was Spider-Man has trouble beating Scorpion, who Captain America easily defeated, so how can Spidey beat Cap? Different hero, same concept.
Originally posted by Capt.JK
I must be typing in a foreign language or something.
Yes its called "retardanese"...seriously though...how the hell can you not see that your "rebuttal" is the exact damb same thing I've posted against your "Cap beat Scorpian" argument many times..lol...either your reaaaaal slow..or reaaaaal stubborn..probably a combination of both.....