Are American troops undisciplined thugs dressed as soldiers?

and read the previos post, which i was only following up on

Originally posted by PVS
so basically its like this:

iraq will never have a military force to counter its neighbors'.

iran would jump at the chance of taking over iraq once the u.s. (supposedly) pulls out

iraq consists of a majority of shiites who would probably welcome iran with open arms

"So it’s no wonder that many Iraqis—including the majority of the insurgents, who still see themselves as fighting foreign invaders—simply don’t believe the American administration’s spin about pulling out of Iraq sometime soon. Iraq’s neighbors don’t believe that either. And neither should anyone else. "

very true...and im think that the true goal of the insurgency is not to free iraq, but to join iran...and thanks to bush, we may be witnessing the birth of a new superpower...or the beginning of a chain of events which lead to one...one that hates us far more than the communists ever did 🙁

Can this thread plase be closed.
Im beginning to dislike people i dont really want to dislike.

To lil and zero: Will PM you my facts when i get them.

"I am going to go back to reading now, because if I stay on here reading this thread any longer, i am going blow a fuse."

Will that be as sexy as it sounds?

Majority of the US troops are what they are suppose to be ,....soldiers under commmand

Originally posted by finti
Majority of the US troops are what they are suppose to be ,....soldiers under commmand

That's meant to make the Iraqi civilians feel safe?

Few countries that are essentially occupied would see soldiers in a positive light, whether they deserve it or not. Do US soldiers deserve to be viewed well by Iraqi citizens? Everyone would have a different opinion, but the actions of the bad apples have undeniably added to the already strong hatred that exists.

Originally posted by bilbofett

But are US Troops as a group THUGS? Absolutely not. As stated over & over here there are a few bad apples in every bunch, and we are no exception. I am horrified by what happened at Abu Grahib but it in no way is indicative of how 'things are done' by our troops. My cousin is a soldier in the army & a great person, father & husband. To place him in the same category as Lynndie Englund is not only a misnomer but an insult.

First of all taking that as a personal insult to a member of your family is going way over the top. And secondly it is the responsibility of every country who has a fighting force to make sure these people are kept rigidly disciplined within combat. Can you teach that, NO, but you can make damn well sure that these gung-ho morons don't even make the grade. I used to think that the American Boot Camp system was a system to be respected in terms of keeping soldiers in line but now, concerning these disgusting events I'm not convinced.
Surely a drill instructor wants his troops to be reliable, efficient and smart. This instructor should notice if someone was enjoying the idea of running around with a happy grin on his face while he was blowing up things with his Rocket Launcher or shooting people down with his M16. It's this unprofessionalism of the American forces I'm having such a hard time with. They don't think about things logically. Blowing up Mosques just because they ASSUME there are Iraqi fighters in there is not correct, they need to make sure and sadly they dont have soldiers with the necessary skills to actually take the time to do a proper recon. Thats where the British Forces should come in. But the American soldiers are so arrogant and convinced they are superior beings don't work together. Take this bit of information. American and British forces arrive outside of Oudday and Qussay's hideout . British SAS forces, because they are trained in close quarters fighting inside buildings insist they should take a stealthy approach and take out the enemy that way. It would seem to be the right way in minimising civilian casualties, right? American officer says no, and procedes to order rockets to be fired continously at the building until everyone is dead. I guess we'll never know who among the dead where actually innocent.
Thats the problem I'm having and that's the problem the Iraqi civilians are having, they never know when they are going to be next on the receiving end of an American bomb or bullet. And I'm sure there are innocent Iraqis out there not part of the Shi-ite taking up arms for their own protection from the American Army because of this.

I dont think its going over the top. The mans risking his life and he gets to be nametagged because a few people in the same army are a bit trigger happy.

now thats generalising

He made the decision to join the army. He should realise beforehand that there are situations that are bound to happen that will discredit the whole army (do I need to mention Vietnam), including him. So I'm not the only one guilty of generalising. Wasn't it the American public post-Vietnam that they labelled all soldiers involved baby-killers and mutilators. Need I go on?

It is often true that we as people, regardless of job and so forth, are measured not by our good deeds, but by our mistakes and wrongs. It is even more so when you are part of something like the military, as it is such a well known body, and even in the best cases is barely viewed very tolerably. Certainly there is a danger of every soldier being tarred with the same brush due to the actions of a few. This is why things must change, but the US so far has been unwilling to go to the lengths needed to clean up its military image.

And what lengths would clean up its military image?

A number of ways. More stringent guidelines when accepting applicants, actual penalties for soldiers who break the rules whether it becomes public or not, not going into wars for bad reasons against international law, insuring a greater deal or respect for the people they claim they are helping, remove the block that stops US soldiers from being tried for crimes in UN courts and listen to complaints made by other nations about unacceptable behaviour, have a place that the buck can stop, learn how to actually apologise for mistakes instead of saying that it is acceptable collateral damage and the like.... the list goes on.....

anybody who blames the army for going into war for no reason is rather....out of it. They dont decide to go to war or not.

Originally posted by Darth Sauron
And what lengths would clean up its military image?

Well shooting Iraqis that are posing an actual confirmed threat, and not gunning them down while they are lying on the ground injured and unarmed would be a start. It would also help that they didn't kill the soldiers that are currently allied with them, or blowing up Mosques just as a precaution, not really being sure whether there is anyone in there that is an actual threat. Doing what they did in those prisons to those Iraqi POWs would not be beneficial in a war situation where they are meant to be seen as liberators not mindless animals. Looking and acting like professional soldiers might also be helpful , killing innocents, sad to say can't be avoided in war but American troops seem to excel at that one.

Oh yeah, almost forgot - invading the wrong country tends to tarnish the military image as well so that could also be considered and avoided.

I am not saying that they should be blamed for going to war, you asked what measures would aid their image and I began a list of measures as to what could achieve that. Most of them have little to do with the actual soldiers, rather the way they are handled by command and Governments. As the media and often general population show soldiers are often derided for going willingly to war, I do not support this, but it is a long held view by some. Ergo, a way of improving image would be for Governments not to send their troops into illegal situations for questionable causes.

Originally posted by Darth Sauron
anybody who blames the army for going into war for no reason is rather....out of it. They dont decide to go to war or not.

Yeah, but they should have the common sense to realise that they essentially are an expendable tool used by politicians to achieve their own goals. That includes unjust wars I'm afraid to say. If they don't want that they leave the army or don't join in the first place.

The army is the only job possibility for some people.

That still doesn't make it acceptable for a person having to join the army to believe he's going to be used appropiately in this day and age by the politicans of any government.

Who says thats what s/he believes? If its their only shot at a wage, theyre going to take it.

Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
He made the decision to join the army. He should realise beforehand that there are situations that are bound to happen that will discredit the whole army (do I need to mention Vietnam), including him. So I'm not the only one guilty of generalising. Wasn't it the American public post-Vietnam that they labelled all soldiers involved baby-killers and mutilators. Need I go on?

LordShadowZ, you make generalisation on top of generalisation.

1-missle strikes are carried out from submarines and ordered from the top in command, possibly even dubya himself. how does that relate to ground troops? most (and i mean MOST) of the indiscriminate killing is done from missile strikes, not from soldiers shooting civilians. i and NOT justifying these actions, but lets place blame where it belongs, or you are unfairly generalising.

2-you try to structure this arguement that bilbo's relative should have not joined the military because of vietnam? WTF??? and wtf does that have to do with the other hundred thousand+ troops on the ground. and while you're thinking about that, think of how sadly wrong your vision of troops happily gunning down civilians are. please, put your oliver stone and fancis ford coppola films on a shelf and lets talk about the war in iraq. and i really fail to see how a bunch of assh0le americans spitting on soldiers and calling them babykillers during the vietnam war help to make your point. if anything, you should realise that you are using the same mentality as they were, just on a less viscious and hurtful scale.

3-there is no way to point out EVERY looney and psycho in boot camp. but they try their best. the whole point of it is to break down the soldiers ego, and make him/her part of a team, and think as a unit. sometimes a psycho is clever enough to make his/her way through it...maybe some are even seemingly sane when coming out of it, but snap once they see action. when has human nature ever been able to be pinpointed and scrutinised, without that person showing BLATENT signs of ill behavior. you preach this as if its so easy.

now before anyone tries to pin a convenient "war monger" label on me, which has been going on ALOT here, i will say that i strongly oppose this war and have from the get go. in my opinion every prick and assh0le who manipulated the system and lied to the public should be lined up and shot for what they've done. all these deaths are on their heads, and maybe...hopefully there IS a god, and he will deal these murdering profiteers justice.