Originally posted by The Tired Hiker
Sure, it can be appaling. But, throughout history many Americans have been opposed to war and have died trying to voice their oppinions via demonstrations and rallies and votes. I think people need to realize that Bush doesn't think for us all.
I think she's on that side with us TH. 😛
there has been the "Cold War" and Kosovo. and your in Briton. if you were in Kosov then you saw monsters slaughter the innocents and the Americans try to get involve and the UN stop us. If you where in the Eastern block you saw the Communists terrorise people but you basically stand for most of what the socialists believe in so thats an oxymoron. Only thing else i know of is maybe the terrorists in the IRA killing people with bombs.
please... tell us how many hot wars have been fought in EUROPE in the last 19 years.the balkan conflict that lasted almost a decade in the 1990`s was more than just the Kosoo, you had the Croation vs Serbian conflict. Bosnia VS Kroatia and Serbia, in a three way conflict.
I will be an officer in this man's army soon enough (ROTC) and i can say for one thing, we are the best trained and we are as morale as any army going to fight for the freedom of others and to bring our brothers home. We don't give idiots rifles to waist whatever they see in front of them, those people are kicked out at boot camp.best trained compared to who?
Ok: Lets get something straight: This thread posed the question “Are American troops undisciplined thugs dressed as soldiers?” – and my answer to this, was “No”. Obviously they are not – you can’t generalise about any group that way.
What I have taken objection to, and tried to point out is that when confronted with a discussion (civil or otherwise) about war people say dumb stuff. The idea that all American soldiers are thugs is ludicrous. That does mean that some aren’t. I believe that if someone commits a war crime it needs to be investigated. I believe that we not only have not not sink to the level of the people we oppose, we have to be far far more noble than they are. I believe that if we sink, for a moment, to acting like those we oppose (in any walk of life – warfare included) we lose the fight. They win.
This thread’s been filled with attitude that turns my stomach. Since raven seemed to think I was copying out because I was “beaten” I will choke down the dismay I feel when I read shit like this and try to tell you all (individually – since Arachnoid gets confused otherwise) what my issue with your posts are, and I’ll answer any charges/questions you have.. IF you answer mine.
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
You go out and you don't show any mercy to the opposing force
You leave the civilians alone, and mercilessly slaughter the enemyMORALS, in WAR!? Have you ever even seen two armies at war? It's kill or be killed, there is no morals. How do you attach morals to something like murder? It's illogical. We murder them before they murder us. That's the way it is, and always has been. It's basic survival instincts for ****'s sake. Attaching morals to a war is just ridiculous. Attach morals to everday civil life, not war.
In a situation where you can’t tell the fighters from the civilians where does that leave you?
In your amoral murder – fest outlined above where no “rules” of conduct apply and it’s just “murder the enemy” I’m assuming you are aware that – since certain groups consider all Americans the enemy that your advocating terrorism. Next time a plane flys into a scyscraper I expect you to shrug and say “It's kill or be killed, there is no morals.” If not, please explain to me how your definition of “enemy” (a native of the area, not a trained soldier, resisting an invasion by a foreign power) is valid and defensible but someone who decides all Americans are the enemy of Allah is to be convinced they are mistaken and should play by “the rules” as defined by you.
Originally posted by PVS
so again, to all those armchair soldiers, please stfu
Originally posted by cornponious
Unless you have been there in the middle of hell, then please do us all a favor and shut up
Corn and VPL - You want to explain to me how you managed to come to this conclusion? Was it an insight of some kind or what? Why exactly do you think I have no right to my opinion about the few addled morons in the US army that think its amusing to (for instance) subject prisoners of war to psychological torture?
The footage of an American military unit gunning down a wounded person in a mosque was shown here two nights ago. That is unacceptable! The language bit was left on so you could here what these so called "soldiers" were saying. Bloody hell! Shouldn't your IQ be above 60 if you're deciding the fate of another human being? I get so angry with this type of "war" for which, incidently, not much substantiation has been given yet. It's all very good and well to sit in one of the largest countries in the world and say things like "the war is justified and kill or be killed". How in god's name is a woman and her child and people who are guests at a freaking wedding a threat to the military? This whole thing has turned into a fiasco that has major implications for the little countries like mine. I seriously thought that in this day and age people would know better. Yes, war is war. But aren't wars supposed to have a valid reason for their existence? What's behind this one? Money, money and more bloody money!! What right does a soldier have for gunning down an unarmed person? No-one has that right.
This doesn't necessarily mean that all US soldiers are power-hungry, god-complex people. But those that are should not be allowed to carry a bloody rifle.
i agree, billions of american soldiers play with the dead and kill completely innocent people, babies even
the american military is a huge disgrace now imo
the news filters it also, they only have cover stories of american soldiers having their heads chopped off by iraqi soldiers, but they dont show the american soldiers shooting mothers, father, and children then taunting their dead bodies by pissing on them or doing much sicker things
i agree, billions of american soldiers play with the dead and kill completely innocent people, babies evenbillions of american soldiers? and war has always innocent casualties
the news filters it also, they only have cover stories of american soldiers having their heads chopped off by iraqi soldiers, but they dont show the american soldiers shooting mothers, father, and children then taunting their dead bodies by pissing on them or doing much sicker thingsget your facts straight, the media is the reason why stories of SOME US soldiers misconduct have come out, if you wanna contribute to this debate at least get the stories right. First it aint american soldiers having their head decapitated it is civilians from all over the world.
the american military is a huge disgrace now imoAnd the few doesnt corrupt the lot
I've read all the arguements and I do concede that I've been way too harsh by saying "all" the American troops are thugs. I just think that the general attitude of the Americans ( again refering to news reports and various interviews I've watched) is basically the same as the Iraqis attitude. This war is not meant to a religious war but some Americans I've listened to them refer to the Iraqis as "followers of Satan and we will destroy them" and all that bullshit. The Americans who unfairly treated the prisoners were the catalyst to the kidnapping and the killing of prisoners. Ken Bigley- a British citizen R.I.P and and many others. These events in the prison were ordered apparently by a superior officer. What does this show? someone had to be stupid to have did this right in the middle of a war. Did this officer not expect retalliation from the Iraqis? This is the kind of naivety thats in the American forces right now and you only have to look at the man at the top to realise where this is coming from. A large percentage of the American forces are trigger-happy, undisciplined and employ a certain degree of happiness when Iraqis are killed. A soldier is not meant to LIKE what he is doing.
im talking of mainstream news, at least over here in florida thats how it is, as i watched the news and it completely filters out alot of very interesting and important topics, maybe where you live you get all the facts straight but not here
"billions" obviously was strong, i didnt mean it literally, war does always have innocent casualties very true, but this is no longer a war between u.s and them, this is turning out to be more and more like mass genocide
as for civilians all over getting their heads decapitated, im speaking in the sense of these two forces going against eachother not the whole entire world, although i have yet to see or hear of any decapitations in australia, japan, greenland, iceland, antarctica, united states, or united kingdom, so obviously this world isnt in great chaos as you say it is
im not speaking of the very few of the american military "corrupting" all of the american military, in my opinion its a disgrace not some sort of corruptive massive plot
its funny when debates like these occur, the opinion of one person matters less and less yet ironically the core of the arguement would deal with "freedom of speech" one way or another
Originally posted by Havoc470
i agree, billions of american soldiers play with the dead and kill completely innocent people, babies eventhe american military is a huge disgrace now imo
the news filters it also, they only have cover stories of american soldiers having their heads chopped off by iraqi soldiers, but they dont show the american soldiers shooting mothers, father, and children then taunting their dead bodies by pissing on them or doing much sicker things
What the hell are you drinking? The reason they don't report anything like that because it doesn't happen. You mistaken us for the terrorists slaughtering crowds, mind you i do not say Iraqis because its not the Iraqis fighting us, they are outsiders angry over thier loss of power.
Originally posted by Mr Zero
Corn and VPL - You want to explain to me how you managed to come to this conclusion? Was it an insight of some kind or what? Why exactly do you think I have no right to my opinion about the few addled morons in the US army that think its amusing to (for instance) subject prisoners of war to psychological torture?
you obviously would rather preach to me than read the entirety of my posts,
you would rather quote me out of context in an attempt to prove me idiotic, so unless you want to go back and read it, why should i repeat myself?
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
I've read all the arguements and I do concede that I've been way too harsh by saying "all" the American troops are thugs. I just think that the general attitude of the Americans ( again refering to news reports and various interviews I've watched) is basically the same as the Iraqis attitude. This war is not meant to a religious war but some Americans I've listened to them refer to the Iraqis as "followers of Satan and we will destroy them" and all that bullshit. The Americans who unfairly treated the prisoners were the catalyst to the kidnapping and the killing of prisoners. Ken Bigley- a British citizen R.I.P and and many others. These events in the prison were ordered apparently by a superior officer. What does this show? someone had to be stupid to have did this right in the middle of a war. Did this officer not expect retalliation from the Iraqis? This is the kind of naivety thats in the American forces right now and you only have to look at the man at the top to realise where this is coming from. A large percentage of the American forces are trigger-happy, undisciplined and employ a certain degree of happiness when Iraqis are killed. A soldier is not meant to LIKE what he is doing.
The terrorists have always beheaded prisoners. that is just an excuse that they like to say. Kidnap and extortion along with drug trafficing is the way they got the many millions to fund many of the terror camps.
it doesnt happen?i think it does as friends come back from that war and told me of what went on
Originally posted by Lord Shadow Z
I've read all the arguements and I do concede that I've been way too harsh by saying "all" the American troops are thugs. I just think that the general attitude of the Americans ( again refering to news reports and various interviews I've watched) is basically the same as the Iraqis attitude. This war is not meant to a religious war but some Americans I've listened to them refer to the Iraqis as "followers of Satan and we will destroy them" and all that bullshit. The Americans who unfairly treated the prisoners were the catalyst to the kidnapping and the killing of prisoners. Ken Bigley- a British citizen R.I.P and and many others. These events in the prison were ordered apparently by a superior officer. What does this show? someone had to be stupid to have did this right in the middle of a war. Did this officer not expect retalliation from the Iraqis? This is the kind of naivety thats in the American forces right now and you only have to look at the man at the top to realise where this is coming from. A large percentage of the American forces are trigger-happy, undisciplined and employ a certain degree of happiness when Iraqis are killed. A soldier is not meant to LIKE what he is doing.
lets make a deal zero, ill repost what i said, and you actually read it before you try to squash me, ok? 😐
Originally posted by PVS
very trueeveryone who bashes on their own troops needs to STFU unless they have seen action themselves and have a basis for comparison.
i have never served, but am politically outspoken. i am very vocal about my opposition to the war in iraq and how it has been conducted. however, you will NEVER hear me badmouth our troops.
so again, to all those armchair soldiers, please stfu
Originally posted by PVS
i dont know if you were referring to my post, but i will respond nonetheless.i say "dont BASH our troops" not "dont bash the government"
the actions of a handful of troops should never lead to bashing of the entire armed forces. back in the sixties, there were those who were brave enough to oppose the war in vietnam. unfortunately, there were also lowlife scumbag assh0les who chose to spit on our troops when they came home...SPIT ON THEM.thats the difference. "support our troops" does NOT mean "support the war"
it simply means dont bash people who are overseas in a shitstorm.
Originally posted by PVS
perhaps the troop who shot the wounded fighter should have exercised more caution.but on the other hand, thats easier said than done.
if you were in a war for the past year, seeing your friends wounded and killed by enemy soldiers either playing dead, or rigged with explosives, you may not be so calm and rational as when you view the video at home sitting on the lazy boy.
horrible shit happens in warfare. the days of opposing sides wearing different color uniforms and meeting at the center of a battlefield are looooong gone. sometimes unarmed wounded enemy soldiers are shot by mistake. sometimes our OWN troops are shot by mistake in friendly fire.
i strongly oppose the policy of indiscriminately bombing a whole city and killing tens of thousands of innocents, but on level of urban warfare, this shit just happens. its tragic, but it happens. and no level of training and discipline will prevent it.
Originally posted by finti
the balkan conflict that lasted almost a decade in the 1990`s was more than just the Kosoo, you had the Croation vs Serbian conflict. Bosnia VS Kroatia and Serbia, in a three way conflict.
Of conflicts you have the Northern Irish one, the Bask situation in Spain
I just said kosov because Yugosolvia would make people scratch there heads. 😛 Bosnia & Serbia are all in Yugosolvia and part of Kosovo.
I could also say Heris Govania 😛
I mentioned the Irish conflict, mainly waged by IRA.
Bask , just forgot about that one because i was like 4 when it happened. 😛 And i'm pretty sure Lil wasn't in Spain.