Wonder Woman vs. the Hulk

Originally posted by Omega Vision
The lasso's enchantment I'd imagine.

And even if they can pull her toward them how will they punch her if they're bound?

Simple, try binding some1. You still have room enough to grab the rope and pull the person pulling you or simply use your own leverage to pull ppl towards you and also usually enough room (given some slack after you pull the person towards you) to either kick or swing with a fist.

Only time you'd be bound and unable to retaliate is if you fell and get hogtied.

Originally posted by Stoic
1. The Hulk defeated Onslaught's physical body, and it was not PIS, to say that it was is to discount all of his punching feats, and some were even more impressive than obliterating Onslaught physical casing. To name one; The Hulk tore through a dimensional wall with his bare fists on two separate occasions.

2. I agree with most of this, there is no doubt that he will stop her from blitzing him, as he was seen doing so to the Sentry, and with ease I might add.

3. I don't agree with the amount that she was towing, because of having to factor in Superman's ability to tow more than either of them combined, due completely to his Super Flight ability. This is why the feat shouldn't ever be brought up for either J'onn or Diana. Superman is a different story, I can almost believe that he could have done it without those two... almost. I'm just hoping that no one takes this as me trolling the others, I'm just highlighting Superman's power set.

4. It most certainly does not translate into an auto win, we know that all character job at one time or another, except those characters that are seen once a year, and are supposed to be uber due to plot (Thanos)... The mere fact that the Hulk has countered blitzes so many times in the past dictates that Diana's would be cut short. The Hulk has considerable resistances to mind and emotional control, I for one do not believe that the lasso would work. Other have resisted it, so to say for certain that it would work, is to discount the Hulk once again.

5. I can see the current Hulk actually stomping her more times than not. He would be able to actually get so strong that her best punches would become ineffectual. Wolverine noted that his natural body armor had become tougher to penetrate, and he was in a calm state, just imagine how much tougher it became when he went World Breaker, and to add to this, he could have become stronger by far. Is this truly me trolling Wonder Woman, or is it what I read? "Someone please stop me" or some such is what he said. Keep in mind that Diana has been stopped by similar characters in the past, now if this is due to CIS, let's keep it in character.

IIRC he did destroy onslaught's physical shell, but that just freed him up for his next step in his development: becoming living, perceptive reality. this made him vulnerable for a few moments while he adjusted and RR figured that if the human characters went inside the rip in reality they coud cancel him out - which makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Simple, try binding some1. You still have room enough to grab the rope and pull the person pulling you or simply use your own leverage to pull ppl towards you and also usually enough room (given some slack after you pull the person towards you) to either kick or swing with a fist.

Only time you'd be bound and unable to retaliate is if you fell and get hogtied.

(Just jumping in, at random)

What Omega should have clarified more clearly was that the lasso doesn't merely force others to speak/see the truth, it also renders them docile/subdued when bound by it, an enchantment that very few have worked their way around, and brute strength is of little consequence against it.

(Of course, many people complain about the "lameness" of WW's "one-shot" via lasso subdual... of course, many of these same people have no problem with the idea of, say, Thor one-shotting someone via Mjolner, or Dr. Strange one-shotting someone with the Eye, or Wolverine one-shotting a fair number of targets via adamantium claws, or Batman one-shotting someone via utility belt or the narrative "batkick".... or Hulk one-shotting via thunderclap...
I think you get my point...)

Originally posted by tideoftime
(Just jumping in, at random)

What Omega should have clarified more clearly was that the lasso doesn't merely force others to speak/see the truth, it also renders them docile/subdued when bound by it, an enchantment that very few have worked their way around, and brute strength is of little consequence against it.

(Of course, many people complain about the "lameness" of WW's "one-shot" via lasso subdual... of course, many of these same people have no problem with the idea of, say, Thor one-shotting someone via Mjolner, or Dr. Strange one-shotting someone with the Eye, or Wolverine one-shotting a fair number of targets via adamantium claws, or Batman one-shotting someone via utility belt or the narrative "batkick".... or Hulk one-shotting via thunderclap...
I think you get my point...)

Originally posted by 753
but it's not the same, those are actually physical attacks and they have to surpass the target's durability or defenses, but the lasso works on almost anyone regardless (to a point) of their powers, even people far stronger than her.

Originally posted by 753
I think only some very specific circumstances and plot devices have let people resist the lasso spell and it has bondaged some characters far above her weight class like trans and skyfathers.

Seconded.

Hulk, barring a narrative meta-truth that would allow him to be free (such as Diana sensing that he cosmically was *required* to crack such-and-such world in half... something that isn't going to happen in a forum battle), is *not* going to resist the lasso; Stoic is showing some relative lack of knowledge concerning the lasso: it isn't a conventional mindcontrol device, either mentally or emotionally -- it *IS* TRUTH, incarnated (linked to and via Diana's soul/divinity, as the incarnation/avatar of Truth). It has bound and rendered gods powerless/unable to act. Hulk, for all his physical power, is no god.

*****

Now, relegating the lasso/bracers/tiara to a secondary, defensive-only status, and focusing on purely physical power/prowess, Diana would be hard-pressed to get a definitive win against Hulk; she could get *situational* wins, where an objective was involved, but she would have a hard time taking him down. *HOWEVER*... it is a GROSS misinterpretation to think that Hulk is in anyway overwhelmingly above her -- he isn't. It is *because* of his recent conceptual upgrades that he is now more on-par with someone in her versatility class (she has strength, speed, finesse, durability, flight, and skill across the board, which he does not). But the areas where he excels (uber-strength when sufficiently incensed, and durability coupled with great recuperative powers) are akin to fighting (in terms of simple strength/durability) someone like Captain Marvel, who for mystical reasons can fight for practically ever. As Hulk can keep going almost imperpetuity (for conventional purposes), Diana's wins come from BFR, Lasso, or *considerable* time coupled with offensive use of speed, skill, and multiple uses of Tiara/Bracers. Hulk's wins come from his simply not going down and getting crushing blows when he connects.

Diana w/gear: 8/10
Diana w/o gear (or only passive use): 2-3/10, due to BFR, or situational subdual, with Hulk getting the solid majority due to being conventionally unstoppable.

Originally posted by 753
but it's not the same, those are actually physical attacks and they have to surpass the target's durability or defenses, but the lasso works on almost anyone regardless (to a point) of their powers, even people far stronger than her.

I was making a marginally sly statement on how certain people (who will go unnamed... but you can guess who they are) can debate, in a given discussion, how those heroes I mentioned can get "x" wins due to their devices/what-have-you, but they are quick to dismiss something like WW's lasso...

I'd bring up relative mysogynistic tendencies, but I don't want to go down *that* avenue too far -- it's been played out in other debates, and those who know better, know better... and those who don't... well... like I said: some people "get it", and some don't...

if eiling can do this to supes.....

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if eiling can do this to supes.....

This is why I say what I say just because of fights like this. Shaggyman isn't the hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
This is why I say what I say just because of fights like this. Shaggyman isn't the hulk.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah, he's much better.

Going by feats, yep, he sure is.

I've seen instances where ppl have resisted the lasso and pulled WW towards them the minute she's managed to bound them tho. IIRC, corect me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Superman being able to do this as well.

WW wins.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if eiling can do this to supes.....

JLA #26??

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah, he's much better.

Originally posted by Badabing
Which comic is that scan from? I know I have it but can't remember which title.

iirc it was around the time maggedon showed up

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah, he's much better.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I've seen instances where ppl have resisted the lasso and pulled WW towards them the minute she's managed to bound them tho. IIRC, corect me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall Superman being able to do this as well.

*Very* *rare* instances, and almost always involving the *meta-truth* of the situation not being in her favor -- Classic Example: the lasso bound and overwhelmed Ares when she and he came head to head, forcing him to see the truth of his existence and the outcome of his actions -- the lasso then, however, released him, as the meta-truth of the situation was that he was the incarnation of war, itself, and could not, as such, be prevented from taking action, though he wisely chose not to; similarly, in the JLA story arc around 24-28, the lasso could not compel/subdue an old titan, as he countered her with greater meta-truth that "he was not one to be questioned by the likes of her" -- which, in that instance, was the greater truth of the moment... (also, the League was pretty much jobbing for the plot, but that is typical for most group mags, so...)

Hulk is not a god. Powerful? Certainly, and also more dangerous than ever, contextually speaking. But both he and she are in a similar class, relatively, with his advantages being in strength (though not as much as some fanbois are liking to paint) and durability/regeneration (which is pretty spot-on), while she has the advantage of speed/skill, coupled with weapons that repel the powers of gods as well as slay them. As I already addressed in a further up post, there are certainly meta-truths that *narratively speaking* could apply in terms of Hulk vs. the lasso... but that sort of thing isn't going to happen in a forum battle, as such instances are *story-driven*, and *not* a common occurance, by any means.

WW, with her gear used aggressively, gets the majority; if used more passively, then Hulk will win the majority. Any other analysis is just fanboi bias, whether for WW (thinking she'll get a clear majority on her own power alone), or for Hulk (thinking that he is massively more powerful than her, in some completely overwhelming manner).

Originally posted by tideoftime
Seconded.

Hulk, barring a narrative meta-truth that would allow him to be free (such as Diana sensing that he cosmically was *required* to crack such-and-such world in half... something that isn't going to happen in a forum battle), is *not* going to resist the lasso; Stoic is showing some relative lack of knowledge concerning the lasso: it isn't a conventional mindcontrol device, either mentally or emotionally -- it *IS* TRUTH, incarnated (linked to and via Diana's soul/divinity, as the incarnation/avatar of Truth). It has bound and rendered gods powerless/unable to act. Hulk, for all his physical power, is no god.

*****

Now, relegating the lasso/bracers/tiara to a secondary, defensive-only status, and focusing on purely physical power/prowess, Diana would be hard-pressed to get a definitive win against Hulk; she could get *situational* wins, where an objective was involved, but she would have a hard time taking him down. *HOWEVER*... it is a GROSS misinterpretation to think that Hulk is in anyway overwhelmingly above her -- he isn't. It is *because* of his recent conceptual upgrades that he is now more on-par with someone in her versatility class (she has strength, speed, finesse, durability, flight, and skill across the board, which he does not). But the areas where he excels (uber-strength when sufficiently incensed, and durability coupled with great recuperative powers) are akin to fighting (in terms of simple strength/durability) someone like Captain Marvel, who for mystical reasons can fight for practically ever. As Hulk can keep going almost imperpetuity (for conventional purposes), Diana's wins come from BFR, Lasso, or *considerable* time coupled with offensive use of speed, skill, and multiple uses of Tiara/Bracers. Hulk's wins come from his simply not going down and getting crushing blows when he connects.

Diana w/gear: 8/10
Diana w/o gear (or only passive use): 2-3/10, due to BFR, or situational subdual, with Hulk getting the solid majority due to being conventionally unstoppable.

current Hulk wins this