Apocalypse vs Thor

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
The Apocalypse fight reminds me heavily of the hype behind Bor and the whole "Had he not had Odinforce, he would be kill!!!!"

But now the narration is being ignored, and suddenly Thor was doing spells to harden his durability apparently.

Thor fans, amirite Bruce?

Who's ignoring the narration?

No one denied that Apocalypse was a beast in that fight. He was obviously noticeably stronger than Thor.

That being said, Apocalypse lost the Death-Seed powered up Celestial Armor no?

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
The Apocalypse fight reminds me heavily of the hype behind Bor and the whole "Had he not had Odinforce, he would be kill!!!!"

But now the narration is being ignored, and suddenly Thor was doing spells to harden his durability apparently.

Thor fans, amirite Bruce?

Not really the same thing considering Bor was more durable than Mjolnir itself and there was a stark difference between how Thor faced the Destroyer Armor and how he fared against Bor. DA killed Thor outright with the disintegration beams without the OF. OF Thor conversely tanks the attack with charred armor and some burns.

I honestly don't see how young Thor being severely hurt by Apocalypse means that current Thor would fare the exact same, especially when Thor's feats are grossly superior since the whole Donald Blake finding the cane in Norway bringing him to the "modern" Marvel age. We also have comics where a Thor pre-banishment have been stated not to have reached his peak strength.

Originally posted by Starscream M
durability does not change as one ages

as much as you'd like to give that attribute to thor, he has the same durability as he did centuries ago

Not for humans, no. But most comic characters are typically still growing in all aspects as they age. Same holds true for Thor.

I honestly don't know how big the difference in stats is. It could be minimal or it could be huge. Speculation. Either way, he's an entirely different beast par Gor himself.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I actually have no idea how old this version of Thor is. He's directly referred as young and is obviously no grown-up Thor but he looks like a pretty grown man despite him only receiving Mjolnir in his mid-late teens classically.

And he was a God of Thunder already, so there's that. Maybe there was a period where he was putting his penis in Mjolnir's strap and beating off with it. So Odin took it away.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Yeah, the characterization there was pretty lame, honestly. That sequence made no sense. I realize Apocalypse is arrogant, but just standing there and letting Thor have a free shot, then crying foul when the anti-Celestial spell cut through him. He should have just blocked the damn blow.

He foolishly thought that the axe-throw took out Thor and looked away (Pretty impressive feat for Thor to take that attack in stride). He just whooped the four horsemen effortlessly, and they were definitely valuable as he was pissed, shouldn't have let his guard down.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
He's 120 years younger than the one who fought Gorr.

And he was a God of Thunder already, so there's that. Maybe there was a period where he was putting his penis in Mjolnir's strap and beating off with it. So Odin took it away.

The Gorr fight was pretty impressive, particularly the lightning bolt packing enough punch to take him out.

Like I said, I have no idea. Definitely not going to go like their original fight.

The very first black Berserker Thor fought gave him a hell of a fight and now he's wading through an entire army of them. And that's within the current version alone.

He also took on modern Gorr (After he slew an Elder God), who he said must have gotten significantly more powerful since their last battle. So I think it's pretty safe to say that Thor is a lot tougher, just not completely conclusive.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Who's ignoring the narration?

No one denied that Apocalypse was a beast in that fight. He was obviously noticeably stronger than Thor.

That being said, Apocalypse lost the Death-Seed powered up Celestial Armor no?

I don't think so, seeing as he had the Celestial ship all throughout his appearances.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not really the same thing considering Bor was more durable than Mjolnir itself and there was a stark difference between how Thor faced the Destroyer Armor and how he fared against Bor. DA killed Thor outright with the disintegration beams without the OF. OF Thor conversely tanks the attack with charred armor and some burns.

I honestly don't see how young Thor being severely hurt by Apocalypse means that current Thor would fare the exact same, especially when Thor's feats are grossly superior since the whole Donald Blake finding the cane in Norway bringing him to the "modern" Marvel age. We also have comics where a Thor pre-banishment have been stated not to have reached his peak strength.

Of course they're going to be superior, that's what happens when you have an ongoing comic career. That's like saying Hulk was at his weakest ever in his first couple fights against Thor because he's had vastly better feats since then.

Naturally those would apply for any flashback... although I'm curious of these statements.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not really the same thing considering Bor was more durable than Mjolnir itself and there was a stark difference between how Thor faced the Destroyer Armor and how he fared against Bor. DA killed Thor outright with the disintegration beams without the OF. OF Thor conversely tanks the attack with charred armor and some burns.

I honestly don't see how young Thor being severely hurt by Apocalypse means that current Thor would fare the exact same, especially when Thor's feats are grossly superior since the whole Donald Blake finding the cane in Norway bringing him to the "modern" Marvel age. We also have comics where a Thor pre-banishment have been stated not to have reached his peak strength.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Just the whole "He would be dead had he not been drunk" or "Another one would break his spine" comments. Yet in Bor threads, all you see if "Thor dead without OF"

I don't think so, seeing as he had the Celestial ship all throughout his appearances.

I doubt it would have killed Thor, Odin Force or not. The intention was to indicate Bor was beyond Heralds in power, that Thor was facing a powerful foe. Further highlighted by him about to destroy the Earth when he was unleashing his power (Contrary to popular believe, Heralds rarely operate on this level).

Wait, so Apocalypse has his armor still? So this was a retroactive retcon then? Because I've seen the ship before but Apocalypse has never been this tough or rocking invincible armor from the Celestials to my knowledge. Keep in mind I haven't caught up with X-Force.

I'd guess he was in the Asgardian equivalent of his early to mid 20s, with current Thor being in his equivalent early to mid 30s (prime). That said, I don't think Thor was maxing on creatine from 12th to 21st century. That'd account for a strange maturation rate given that Thor, iirc, was an adult with Mjolnir in his posession when the 3rd Celestial Host came in the 10th century AD, and was active in the Fourth Host as well (tossing the Odinsword into Arishem). I think it's a matter of bad continuity.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'd guess he was in the Asgardian equivalent of his early to mid 20s, with current Thor being in his equivalent early to mid 30s (prime). That said, I don't think Thor was maxing on creatine from 12th to 21st century. That'd account for a strange maturation rate given that Thor, iirc, was an adult with Mjolnir in his posession when the 3rd Celestial Host came in the 10th century AD, and was active in the Fourth Host as well (tossing the Odinsword into Arishem). I think it's a matter of bad continuity.

Don't bother trying to come to a conclusion using dates, I doubt writers gave enough shit to try and fit it in perfectly. Personally, I'm treating these versions as completely new as Thor received Mjolnir in previous incarnations as a mid to late teen.

Thor is definitely far more formidable. How much so in terms of physical stats I'm unsure like I said. Still going to bet on a large gap contrary to a small one.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Just the whole "He would be dead had he not been drunk" or "Another one would break his spine" comments. Yet in Bor threads, all you see if "Thor dead without OF"

I don't think so, seeing as he had the Celestial ship all throughout his appearances.

That still doesn't prove Bor would have killed Thor without the OF.

Of course they're going to be superior, that's what happens when you have an ongoing comic career. That's like saying Hulk was at his weakest ever in his first couple fights against Thor because he's had vastly better feats since then.

Naturally those would apply for any flashback... although I'm curious of these statements.

The Apocalypse thing isn't the same as Bor, though. With Bor, and during that series, we saw that OF Thor was significantly superior to Classic Thor. And OF Thor, while hurt, endured an attack that once killed him outright. The fact that a stray axe blow broke his ribs and Bor taking everything he had up to Mjolnir breaking certainly lends more evidence to the idea that Bor could have one shot killed him. Given some of classic Thor's crazy feats, it's certainly possible he could have survived Bor's attack, but really, given the intent of JMS and the other comparisons and feats during that run, I'm more inclined to believe that at the least, Thor would have been severely FUBUR'd without the OF.

It just seems stupid to me personally to think that the same attacked that wrecked a young Thor would have the same effectiveness as a Thor who's faced guys like Hulk, Kurse, Juggernaut, etc.

I'm looking for the scans/issue numbers, but I strongly recall an instance where Thor or the narrator is telling a story about a younger Thor, pre-banishment and they specifically mention how his strength had not peaked in comparison to (then) today.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I doubt it would have killed Thor, Odin Force or not. The intention was to indicate Bor was beyond Heralds in power, that Thor was facing a powerful foe. Further highlighted by him about to destroy the Earth when he was unleashing his power (Contrary to popular believe, Heralds rarely operate on this level).

Wait, so Apocalypse has his armor still? So this was a retroactive retcon then? Because I've seen the ship before but Apocalypse has never been this tough or rocking invincible armor from the Celestials to my knowledge. Keep in mind I haven't caught up with X-Force.

Apocalypse armor has always been Celestial tech. It's integrated into his body via the Transmode virus. It's just being more emphasized in modern depictions (since Blood of Apocalypse arc).

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm looking for the scans/issue numbers, but I strongly recall an instance where Thor or the narrator is telling a story about a younger Thor, pre-banishment and they specifically mention how his strength had not peaked in comparison to (then) today.

Sounds familiar but don't bother.

I don't think anyone's denying that Thor is superior physically (Except Starscream but he's irrelevant) but trying to determine by how much so which with the current evidence is simply impossible imo.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Sounds familiar but don't bother.

I don't think anyone's denying that Thor is superior physically (Except Starscream but he's irrelevant) but trying to determine by how much so which with the current evidence is simply impossible imo.

Starscream's gonna Starscream.

And I totally agree that by all rights, Apocalypse should also be more formidable in a "current" setting, just like Thor is.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Apocalypse armor has always been Celestial tech. It's integrated into his body via the Transmode virus. It's just being more emphasized in modern depictions (since Blood of Apocalypse arc).

I know he's always rocked Celestial tech.

But in this issue he was actually wearing cosmic Celestial Armor. That's far different from him integrating some Celestial bits into his suit.

If he's wearing that shit again, I think even modern Thor would be significantly hard pressed to cause him any harm. Apocalypse would be wearing the same shit that Arishem's rocking etc.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Starscream's gonna Starscream.

And I totally agree that by all rights, Apocalypse should also be more formidable in a "current" setting, just like Thor is.

If he still has the armor, yes and imo, Thor and other herald level beings should lose to Apocalypse on average. The defense granted to him by the Celestial Death Seed is too great.

If he doesn't, his effectiveness drops significantly and Thor pummels him.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Gorr fight was pretty impressive, particularly the lightning bolt packing enough punch to take him out.

Like I said, I have no idea. Definitely not going to go like their original fight.

The very first black Berserker Thor fought gave him a hell of a fight and now he's wading through an entire army of them. And that's within the current version alone.

He also took on modern Gorr (After he slew an Elder God), who he said must have gotten significantly more powerful since their last battle. So I think it's pretty safe to say that Thor is a lot tougher, just not completely conclusive.

I don't either. But I find the notion that Thor's physical ability changed so drastically since then pretty silly.

Yeah, that's weird. That's like in the same week too. I guess you can chalk that one up to him learning how to fight it.

Both versions took on modern Gorr. Gorr cheapshotted Young Thor after he took out like 3 Beserkers easily, and as soon as he started fighting Current Thor, he beat him just as easily. So that doesn't really prove much. Though Current Thor doesn't have the implications that he was just raped like Young Thor did...

As an aside, isn't the best Thor has ever done against Odin as a "Young" Thor, while Odin had the Odin Sword and the Destroyer armor?

Apocalypse should also be mature enough to use a damn forcefield or just block a melee attack instead of arrogantly standing there and taking it to the chest. That was almost as bad as that "Die a thousand deaths Thunder God" line. Bad characterization. 👇

Anyway, I say split, or 6/10 either way. Apocalypse is in Thor's weight class at the very least.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I doubt it would have killed Thor, Odin Force or not. The intention was to indicate Bor was beyond Heralds in power, that Thor was facing a powerful foe. Further highlighted by him about to destroy the Earth when he was unleashing his power (Contrary to popular believe, Heralds rarely operate on this level).

Wait, so Apocalypse has his armor still? So this was a retroactive retcon then? Because I've seen the ship before but Apocalypse has never been this tough or rocking invincible armor from the Celestials to my knowledge. Keep in mind I haven't caught up with X-Force.

He should. Seeing as the ship should be able to replicate any armor relatively easily.

If he doesn't however, he would have lost it due to his destruction at the Moon due to heart force.

Apoc armor seems to fluctuate however based on his strength at the time though. And he can manipulate it. So it's possible he can regen it like the Celestials.
It also accounts for like 100% of the showings where it's been damaged outside this Thor example.