Originally posted by yerssot
I'm against that, they should know a child takes up a lot of money
Well, you might be against that, but it DOES happen. There will never be a day that suddenly all people will use precautions... So, if it does happen, it's better abortion to be available... even though it IS kind of murder 😖
Raventheonly> Indeed sometimes raped women do not choose to do an abortion. But it's totally, totally up to them, IMO.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But that is my point. This is not like pornography, where you can say you do not like it but support another's right to use it.If you think abortion is wrong it is because you think a human life is being killed. There is simply no circumstance I can see in which you would then support someone else's right to do it.
Because I PERSONALLY would never have an abortion, but I wouldn't say someone was a monster for having one.
OK, yeah I worded it kinda wrong...
what I meant is that abortion is wrong FOR ME, I think it'd be wrong FOR ME to do it. other people have the right to choose whether they want the baby or not. I would encourage them to think very carefully about what they were doing, because once they've done it, the can't change their minds. But I would support them on their decision
Originally posted by Jeff_Atello
Life begins when the fetus begins to develop. It has a heartbeat, and it has been proven that it can distinguish voices and things of that nature.
Abortion is not murder.
In some cases it is the best solution for both mother and unborn fetus.
(i.e. when it is not wanted and/or cannot be cared for)
See... the problem is, we can all say abortion is murder/abortion is not murder at each other all day, the point remains that
a. That is imprecise, the question is at what POINT is it murder, not whether it is murder at all (technically speaking killing the baby the day before it was due to be born is abortion- but also clearly murder!)
b. As for what point it is, science has no firm idea.
It is a very nasty problem.
And I don't get this 'best for the child if no-one wants it' thing. Strikes me as irrelevant. Either it is not murder in which case it is ok to get rid of it whether it is wanted or not, if the mother so desires, or it IS murder, in which case it makes no difference whether the child is wanted or not, it would still be wrong- you would not kill a baby abandoned on the street, would you?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is imprecise, the question is at what POINT is it murderAnd I don't get this 'best for the child if no-one wants it' thing. Strikes me as irrelevant. Either it is not murder in which case it is ok to get rid of it whether it is wanted or not, if the mother so desires, or it IS murder, in which case it makes no difference whether the child is wanted or not, it would still be wrong- you would not kill a baby abandoned on the street, would you?
i dont think its murder.
society has a law that its illegal to terminate it after a certain period of time.
therefore if its done before that time "it is ok to get rid of it whether it is wanted or not, if the mother so desires".
"you would not kill a baby abandoned on the street, would you?"
no but thats a stupid thing to say.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
At what point is a foetus really alive? No-one is really sure. But at the point where it is alive onwards, no-one has the right to take its life away- that includes the Mother, and that is regardless if she was raped or not. Because that would simply be murder, and two wrongs do not make a right.
Not from conception, that is too strict.
At 14 weeks, the foetus has finger nails and eyelashes for christ's sake....... yet they can still be aborted up to 20 or so weeks....... think about how much more it has changed between 14-20 wekks.
I am NOT saying abortion is completely wrong, far from it, but it should be avoided at all costs, obviously.....
I don't think anymore can really be said on this subject, everyone seems to be in agreement, more or less ✅
Originally posted by Darth Revan
The "brain" you speak of that is present during fetal development only functions to moniter its pulse and other vital functions. It cannot "think" or "feel" with it.
I know we were all once foetuses, but you have a GREAT memory to be able to confirm that!
In saying when the foetus is "alive," for the argument's sake lets say that a foetus is not a human, but at some point it develops all human traits, is it then an unborn baby or still a foetus that can still be aborted?
Abortion is a good thing. It gives women freedom and helps further equality between the genders.
Imagine a world without abortions? And how it would negatively impact womens carrier chances in the world today.
Since a woman's body belongs to the woman in question, she and SHE alone, decides what happens to it. Imagine how it would be, if MEN where the ones being pregnant? And how that would effect various types of contraception AND abortion.
This stuff about "ending a life before it begins" is saying some unborns life is more important than the woman in question. A child should be welcomed and wanted. The potential cure-cancer scenario is also rubbish. What if the woman in question was forced to have the child, and therefore couldn't go to medical shool, where SHE then found the cure for cancer?
And - as has been pointed out: You cannot make it illegal. Only dangerous and moved to unhealthy back-alley clinics.
Lil Bitchiness> 😄 Okay, so we're STILL in agreement.
Jeff_Atello> Well, what if the STUPID man and woman did use contraception? And what gives YOU the right to say what a woman can and cannot do with her own body - seeing as you're never going to be in a situation of unwanted pregnancy?
This nonsense about responsibility doesn't work. So, should young boys not have sex before they're ready to be fathers? Sex is not only meant to procreate the species. Its fun and a damn pleasurable way of spending some time together.
Is it murder? An unborn child cannot survive without the mother or some funky technical devices. As long as the unborn child is DEPENDENT on the mother for life, the woman has the final word as to whether she want it or not. Take the child out of the womb and it will, left without medical aid, die. This to show why I do NOT consider abortion to be murder. I consider it to be... abortion.
Thousands of children die each day in underdeveloped countries, of starvation, disease, and thirst and mines - because our governments refuse to helpt them. Is that murder?
Hang on, but why does it cease to be murder just because it cannot live without medical aid?
There are babies born prematurely that we save with medicine that, at the same time period, we also abort. Is it so inaccurate to call it murder if that child had the chance of life outside the womb? After all, there are plenty of babies born NOT prematurely that need medical treatment to live- it would still be murder to kill them.
Well, I certainly consider the possibility of it being murder, in which case it does not matter a damn whose body it is, no-one has the right to kill it. I also totally and utterly reject your disturbing idea that it is not murder if something is dependant on you for life. Just because a human is dependant on another human's body to live, does not change it being murder to kill the dependant human! That much is obvious.
It is not murder in only one case, and no other- if it is not a proper, sentient human. If it is, then all other considerations should be completely ignored, because murder it is. The question is again, I repeat- WHEN is it considered murder and when is it not? No-one knows at what point it stops being a vague collection of cells and starts being a proper living being- all we know is that it starts BEFORE birth, but we do not know when.
Mook, it is not even vaguely stupid; it is basically what it comes down to, if it can be considered truly alive (and I think we all know what is meant by alive in this case, Syren.) The law is, after all, different in just about every country- it is a guess, and a vague guess at that.
"Thousands of children die each day in underdeveloped countries, of starvation, disease, and thirst and mines - because our governments refuse to helpt them. Is that murder?"
No, at worst negligence, and also totally irrelevant to any argument I am advancing.
I also could not care less if it was the man or woman who got pregnant; the principle is identical.
There is most certainly murder being committed in the name of aboriton in this world. That is a fact- like I say, the Chinese partial birth babies that could actually live independantly once born and suck their brains out, and call it abortion. Anyone will agree that is murder, so logically you have to trace a point backwards to where it is NOT murder- and as I keep saying., no-one knows for sure where that point is.