Count Dooku versus Mace Windu

Started by Illustrious7 pages
Originally posted by Deus Ex
I remember this. No one ever did prove how or why Mace would grow rapidly in ten to thirteen years to overcome a lightsaber and jedi master and Dooku would somehow not. And considering that Dooku is pretty uber with a lightsaber and certainly appears much better in-movie, I never did follow this line of thought. I believe Dooku trounces Mace.

Yeah, but you're assuming there was a lot of difference between Dooku and Mace to begin with. Dooku could have beaten Mace and then collapsed due to an aneurism. We only have that one line in the EU databank (which is suspect even for EU). Besides, it was also mentioned that Mace and Dooku would be a good fight.

Until this is elaborated, I'll say this is a coinflip.

I'm writing a large post on it currently. I'llpost it in a few minutes probably.

And simply because the databank says Mace was beaten by Dooku isn't conclusive either. They could have sparred 10 times and it be 5-5, but you could still word it as Mace was beaten by Dooku, because he was.

It mentioned the only two to ever beat him was Dooku and Yoda. That includes him as a 15 year old Padawan or a 10 year old youngling. That's a pretty impressive resume.

Regardless, I'm not going to say a name for sure, but to think this is a one way fight would be stupid.

Good point, Illustrious. I dunno. This is a very difficult battle, it seems. I do think, though, Dooku might just win it. If not through his impressive saber skills, perhaps through his usage of The Force, which we haven't seen much from Mace.

I dunno...

Alright. I'm ready to make the comparison.

First, let me state what I believe makes up a powerful Jedi fighter.

Training Time
Experience
Lightsaber Style
Knowledge of the Force
Mastery of a Lightsaber Form
Understanding of how to best utilize said form
Better Form for dueling
Dueling

Dooku had almost all of these over Mace the first time they fought, but this will probably not be so this time. Let me show you why.

Now, let us examen Training Time.

As of the first time they fought, Dooku had been training for 67 years. Mace had been training for 37 years. Dooku has almost double Mace's training time at this point. This is assuming, of course, that Dooku defeated Mace at the last possible moment before leaving the Order. It is more likely that they fought earlier than that, so let us go with five years before Dooku left the Order. Let me note that this is still very favorable for Dooku.

That means that the last time Dooku defeated Mace, Dooku was 63 and Mace was 33. Mace has just three years of from being doubled in training time.

Now, if we look at them as of ROTS, Dooku is 83 and Mace is 53. Dooku of course still has 30 years over Mace, but now their ages are closer proportionally.

In their first fight, Dooku had about 190% more training time. Now he has about 157% more. He still has an advantage here, but by how much?

Next, lets look at something most of you probably never considered.

Dooku believed in the Potentium. That is, for those who don't properly understand the Potentium view, he followed both the Lightside of the Force and the Dark. Potentium followers believe this is okay as long as they do not favor one side over the other. This was the reason Dooku, nor any of his students, were ever offered a seat on the Council.

So, seeing as Dooku already followed the Darkside to an extent, he didn't learn a lot under Sidious, or at least not as much as he would have normally or as much as you guys seem to believe.

Being a Jedi Master, he would have access to all of the Dark Side knowledge that the Temple held, which was a lot. They held at least one Sith Holocron, too.

Since he already knew a lot of what Sidious told him, he wouldn't have advanced as fast in this time. Lets say he only advanced a two thirds as fast as he normally would have. That gives him 73 year of training by their next fight.

That 190% that he had before is now just 138%. Just 38% more experince.

Remember, Dooku used the Dark Side even as a Jedi.

Now, lets look at experince. This is very similar to training time, except that we will weight actual events rather than regular training.

First, Dooku has done the following:
Killed a Jedi Master
Defeated a Master and Knight
Held off Yoda
Led the attack on Gilidrann
Trained six students

Mace has:
Stopped 14 Gank Killers
Killed Uda-Khalid
Was always on the top of his class
Trained two Padawans
Created his own lightsaber form
Killed Jango Fett
Led the Battle of Dantooine
Defeated a Jedi Master even with serious injuries
Survived a fist fight against Kar Vastor
Defeated Sidious

Mace seems to be a fair bit more experince by ROTS. Also, considering that Mace defeated Sidious without being extremely weak after(judging from facial expressions) he was a fair bit more powerful than Sidious.

Lightsaber Style: Dooku had a major advantage in lightsaber style when they first fought. Dooku will not have such an advantage this time.

Although it is not known exactly when Mace developed Vapaad, it was still very new when he lost to Dooku.

When Mace was 14, he still had not built a lightsaber. We know that Mace was a powerful form five user and that he had to learn Juyo before he could develop Vapaad.

If he learned both Juyo and Djem So in the time it took Obi-wan to master form three, the first time he and Dooku fought Vapaad didn't exist.

Mace also had to learn form 1.

So, Mace might have mastered Djem So and had some knowledge of form 1(cant remember the name) and Juyo, but Vapaad still didn't exist. In this fight, Mace will have finished learning Vapaad but he will also have Vapaad on his side.

Knowledge of the Force: Dooku has greater force attack skills than Mace even in ROTS. There is a major difference now though.

The first time they fought, Mace didn't have Vapaad. Vapaad was what allows Mace to withstand Sidious' force attacks. He couldn't defend as well against Dooku's force attacks before beause he didn't have Vapaad, but now he does. Sidious was more tired after his fight with Mace than Mace was(judging from expressions) showing that it uses less energy for Mace to defend with the force than it does for someone else to attack him with it.

Mastery of a Lightsaber Form: The first time they fought, Dooku has been learning Makashi for over forty years. Mace had learned some of form 1, possibly mastered Sjem So, and learned some of Juyo. Those other forms are weaker than Makashi for saber vs. saber but the same doesn't not seem so for Vapaad. Mace has also shown himself to be a very skilled duelist, adding hand and foot techniques to his lightsaber skills.

Understanding how to best utilize said lightsaber form: Dooku had an advantage here that he will not have against Mace. Mace didn't know Vapaad nor had he been in as many conflicts that required use of a saber. By the time they rematch, Mace had discovered how to fully tap Vapaad without falling to the Darkside(his time on Harun Kal had a lot to do with this.).

Better form for dueling: The first time, Dooku had an advantage in that his form was better for dueling than Djem So. It seems that Vapaad's use of a lightsaber along with it's special focus of mind would give it an advantage, if only a minor one.

Dueling Skill: It is unknown how good Dooku was at dueling as of the last time they fought, such as being able to fight without a saber and incorporate that into his form, but we do know Mace is very good at it as of ROTS. He was able to fight effectively against Kar Vaster. It seems to me the Mace is better at dueling, but there isn't enough evidence at this time prove it to anyone.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
And Quinlan who according to you Sorgo stalemated Windu.

Oh yeah! That's right!

Actually, according to the pictures on the comic, Quinlan had a saber to Windu's throat.

Gotta love it. They should call this section "Feat Wars".

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Gotta love it. They should call this section "Feat Wars".

I'd take that over "Fanboy Wars" anyday.

Is there much of a difference?

Mace has:
Stopped 14 Gank Killers
Killed Uda-Khalid
Was always on the top of his class
Trained two Padawans
Created his own lightsaber form
Killed Jango Fett
Led the Battle of Dantooine
Defeated a Jedi Master even with serious injuries
Survived a fist fight against Kar Vastor
Defeated Sidious

Akward, you failed to mention what Dooku has:
Flattened Kenobi under a platform.
Slashed Anakin's arm off.
Trained Asajj, Quinlan, Grievous and Severance Tann.
Recruited Durge and Jango as his personal representative Bounty Hunters.
Completely mastered an ancient Form of Lightsaber combat that focuses on One on One dueling.
Basically owned an Army and had that Army kill hundreds of Jedi during a deadly arena fight.
A famous and well-respected Jedi of his time.
Trained a deadly cyborg who ruthlessly killed handfuls of Jedi.
Defeated Mace Windu.
Studied the Force for over eight decades, becoming one of the most deadly practitioners of the Force in his time.
A great and masterminded Political figurehead, settled various disputes among worlds across the Galaxy.

One thing struck me... "Dooku used the dark side even as a jedi".

More Glentract supposing? You can't take a guess and call it fact, Glentract.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Mace has:
Stopped 14 Gank Killers
Killed Uda-Khalid
Was always on the top of his class
Trained two Padawans
Created his own lightsaber form
Killed Jango Fett
Led the Battle of Dantooine
Defeated a Jedi Master even with serious injuries
Survived a fist fight against Kar Vastor
Defeated Sidious

[QUOTE=5318125]Originally posted by Sorgo
[B]Akward, you failed to mention what Dooku has:
Actually I did mention all of these that contribute to Dooku's fighting skill or were not mutual with Mace.

[QUOTE=5318125]Originally posted by Sorgo
[B]Flattened Kenobi under a platform.

"Defeated a Master and Knight"

Originally posted by Sorgo
Slashed Anakin's arm off.

"Defeated a Master and Knight"

Originally posted by Sorgo
Trained Asajj, Quinlan, Grievous and Severance Tann.

I said, "Trained six students". Asajj, Quinlan, Grevious, and Severance are part of that six.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Recruited Durge and Jango as his personal representative Bounty Hunters.

I didn't feel this matters much. Notice I also didn't mention that Mace did a lot of recruting either, but he did.

Originally posted by Sorgo
[B]Completely mastered an ancient Form of Lightsaber combat that focuses on One on One dueling. [/B]

He didn't completly master it or else he would be better with a lightsaber than anyone ever. He did master it, but Mace also mastered Sjwn So and Juyo, which I didn't mention before either.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Basically owned an Army and had that Army kill hundreds of Jedi during a deadly arena fight.

Thing is this doesn't help Dooku in a fight.

Originally posted by Sorgo
A famous and well-respected Jedi of his time.

And Mace wasn't? Notice things that they had in common were not mentioned.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Trained a deadly cyborg who ruthlessly killed handfuls of Jedi.

This fits under "Trained six students".

Originally posted by Sorgo
Defeated Mace Windu.

I did mention this. It's what the entire post is about.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Studied the Force for over eight decades, becoming one of the most deadly practitioners of the Force in his time.

This is a mutual feat.

Originally posted by Sorgo
A great and masterminded Political figurehead, settled various disputes among worlds across the Galaxy.

Mace did the same thing. Who do you think ended the Summertime War?

And Janus, no, I didn't make up Dooku being a Pontentium user. It was mentioned in a book a while back. I'll find the source later. In otherwords, Dooku believed in the Unifying Force.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Gotta love it. They should call this section "Feat Wars".

What do you suppose we compare instead of feats?

You might want to compare the bullshit you posted on the other thread about ROTJ Luke with fallacies. You might find a lot of similarities.

Stopped 14 Gank Killers

This wouldn't up his Saber skills. Unless Dooku uses a gun during their fight.

Killed Uda-Khalid

A crime lord? Okay then, Glentract.

Was always on the top of his class

Irrelevant. Proof?

Trained two Padawans

The two that fell to the darkside and died?

Created his own lightsaber form

With help. Don't forget that! Plus, he built it on another form. Don't forget that!

Killed Jango Fett

And again: This wouldn't up his Saber skills. Unless Dooku uses a gun during their fight.

Led the Battle of Dantooine

That's...That's real nice, Glentract.

Defeated a Jedi Master even with serious injuries

Serious injuries from what, Glentract? You failed to mention that part.

Survived a fist fight against Kar Vastor

He barely survived that fist fight!

Defeated Sidious

And got shocked out of a window.

Originally posted by Sorgo
This wouldn't up his Saber skills. Unless Dooku uses a gun during their fight.

Was meant to show he was a respected Jedi. Respected Jedi are commonly powerful ones.

Originally posted by Sorgo
A crime lord? Okay then, Glentract.

The point was that he was able to kill him before he had built a lightsaber. I thought Uda was a murderer, but in anycase, how many padawans are strong enough to kill a crime lord without a lightsaber?

Originally posted by Sorgo
Irrelevant. Proof?

He was the second best of the Order. How is that irrelevant? It was mentioned in several places.

Originally posted by Sorgo
The two that fell to the darkside and died?

Excuse me, but Echuu never fell to the Darkside and survived the Purge.

Originally posted by Sorgo
With help. Don't forget that! Plus, he built it on another form. Don't forget that!

True. He invented the mental aspect of it though, basing it off of his Shatterpoint ability. Sora just helped him mix the mental and physical aspects.

Originally posted by Sorgo
And again: This wouldn't up his Saber skills. Unless Dooku uses a gun during their fight.

It shows prowless with a saber.

Originally posted by Sorgo
That's...That's real nice, Glentract.

You didn't have much of a problem when I mentioned Dooku leading the Battle of Gilidrann.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Serious injuries from what, Glentract? You failed to mention that part.

From fighting in the Summertime War.

Originally posted by Sorgo
He barely survived that fist fight!

The fact that he survived at all shines brightly for him.

Originally posted by Sorgo
And got shocked out of a window.

Reguardless he put Sidious on his ass.

B]Was meant to show he was a respected Jedi. Respected Jedi are commonly powerful ones.[/B]

That is a pathetic stereotype. I am sure Kit Fisto was respected, but he got punked.

The point was that he was able to kill him before he had built a lightsaber. I thought Uda was a murderer, but in anycase, how many padawans are strong enough to kill a crime lord without a lightsaber?

Uda was physically weak and incredibly cowardly. All Mace had to do was sneak in and finish him off.

He was the second best of the Order. How is that irrelevant? It was mentioned in several places.

Second best? Who told you that? The Movies? The Books? I haven't heard that nowhere!

Excuse me, but Echuu never fell to the Darkside and survived the Purge.

Echuu virtually didn't survive the purge. He was quickly killed by Darth Vader after the Purge. Decapitated, to be exact.

True. He invented the mental aspect of it though, basing it off of his Shatterpoint ability. Sora just helped him mix the mental and physical aspects.

If not for Sora or Depa, the form wouldn't be as good. They made it together. Don't put it all on him, because that is virtually ridiculous.

It shows prowless with a saber.

Not at all. Not with LS to LS.

You didn't have much of a problem when I mentioned Dooku leading the Battle of Gilidrann.

I don't have a problem here either. I said it was great. Don't make assumptions.

From fighting in the Summertime War.

Exactly, and he sustained heavy injury, which shows his skills are... Kinda shippy.... Sure, you are supposed to recieve injuries, but he is lucky he survived.

The fact that he survived at all shines brightly for him.

He *BARELY* survived.

Reguardless he put Sidious on his ass.

True, and I give him props for that, but who says Dooku couldn't put Sidious or Mace on their asses?

Originally posted by Sorgo
Uda was physically weak and incredibly cowardly. All Mace had to do was sneak in and finish him off.

Yeah sure. I mean we all know how easy it is to infiltrate a crime syndicate. 😉

Originally posted by Sorgo
Second best? Who told you that? The Movies? The Books? I haven't heard that nowhere!

Starwars.com says that the only two who ever bested him was Dooku and Yoda. Dooku left the Order, so Mace is second.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Echuu virtually didn't survive the purge. He was quickly killed by Darth Vader after the Purge. Decapitated, to be exact.

He survived it for almost 20 years. Echuu led an assault on an Imperial Base after the Purge. He didn't not survive it. He did fight Vader, but where was it ever said that Vader killed him quickly or decapitated him? Proof please.

Originally posted by Sorgo
If not for Sora or Depa, the form wouldn't be as good. They made it together. Don't put it all on him, because that is virtually ridiculous.

Depa had no part in making the form. Sora helped incorporate the physical aspect. Mace is the one who is credited to making it, implying that Mace did most of the work.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Not at all. Not with LS to LS.

Whatever you say.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Exactly, and he sustained heavy injury, which shows his skills are... Kinda shippy.... Sure, you are supposed to recieve injuries, but he is lucky he survived.

He wasn't close to death until he fought Depa and even still he wasn't in a ton of danger of dying.

Originally posted by Sorgo
He *BARELY* survived.

No. He was injured, but he was far from dying.

True, and I give him props for that, but who says Dooku couldn't put Sidious or Mace on their asses? [/B][/QUOTE]

The burden would of proof would lie on you to show that.

Wow Glentract. With all this Dooku would win going around here I actually changed my mind from Mace would beat Dooku to unknown but you changed my mind right back. I now have no doubt that Mace would win.

Yeah sure. I mean we all know how easy it is to infiltrate a crime syndicate. 😉

Exactly.

Starwars.com says that the only two who ever bested him was Dooku and Yoda. Dooku left the Order, so Mace is second.

Dooku Bested him. Hear that?

He survived it for almost 20 years. Echuu led an assault on an Imperial Base after the Purge. He didn't not survive it. He did fight Vader, but where was it ever said that Vader killed him quickly or decapitated him? Proof please.

It was in some book. Search the net. Echuu was decapitated. By the way, Dooku had Quinlan as an apprentice and he survived the Purge without dying and Asajj potentially survived the purge. I don't think so, though. She probably died from that lame ass fall.

Depa had no part in making the form. Sora helped incorporate the physical aspect. Mace is the one who is credited to making it, implying that Mace did most of the work.

Sora had turned to the dark side. Mace would not credit a Dark Jedi/Sith.

Whatever you say.

Exactly.

He wasn't close to death until he fought Depa and even still he wasn't in a ton of danger of dying.

He was close to death.

No. He was injured, but he was far from dying.

Kar nearly killed him.

The burden would of proof would lie on you to show that.

Dooku has an easier chance of defeating Mace!

A) Dooku has beaten Mace before. Dooku and Mace BOTH gained considerable experience since then.
B) Dooku was one of the only other Jedi to Best Mace Windu.
C) Mace has alot of restrictions on his Lightsaber form, considering Dark side energies are used to fuel some of the moves. The form revolves around using the Dark side, so Mace must control it properly. The form ate Sora and Depa alive.
D) Dooku uses a form BASED ON DUELING AND LIGHTSABER TO LIGHTSABER COMBAT! Mace's is not a Form for dueling, but a mix between dueling and dodging laser shots. Dooku's form is a SOLID Dueling form in which he has COMPLETELY mastered to the highest degree.
E) Dooku's force is so strong, numerous people have argued it to be Sidious' level, or even beyond. From what we have seen with Mace, he has used a few force pushes and doesn't use the Force much, maybe because he isn't good with it.